America's Shame

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='18 February 2010 - 01:04 AM' timestamp='1266469470' post='2058664']
It's the same God then as it is now. It applies.
[/quote]

Then where is the similarity in the New Testament, besides the Revelation. I am just trying to get something stright here honestly. I mean, obviously its the same God, but as he promised Noah with the bow in the sky, He would never wipe out humanity with a flood of that magnitude.

[quote]

True we take no part in the act of abortion, yet it is still [b]our[/b] shame as a nation, shame on all of humanity. Each and every sin effects each and every person.
[/quote]

Absolutely and it is no different from a war that goes on against our values and etc. The world has fallen obviously and that is why we repent.

[quote]

But we are sheep, that is why we need a Shepard. Humanity has secular leaders and religious leaders for this reason, each is suppose to complement the other when each rules justly. In the end however humanity will be divided into sheep and goats.
[/quote]

I mean, a different kind of sheep here. And as far as secular leaders to there are never if any that ruled justly. And if they did it was becuase they perscribed heavily to a religion which in one sense takes away the secular nature of their position and makes it religious.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='18 February 2010 - 12:40 AM' timestamp='1266471637' post='2058679']
Then where is the similarity in the New Testament, besides the Revelation. I am just trying to get something stright here honestly. I mean, obviously its the same God, but as he promised Noah with the bow in the sky, He would never wipe out humanity with a flood of that magnitude.[/quote]

A flood of that magnitude. There was no promise whatsoever that collective punishment would cease. Do you believe in Original Sin, is it taught in the New Testament? Will you die? The punishment (death) of Original Sin is collective punishment for one man's sin.


[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='18 February 2010 - 12:40 AM' timestamp='1266471637' post='2058679']Absolutely and it is no different from a war that goes on against our values and etc. The world has fallen obviously and that is why we repent.[/quote]

And in every war the innocent are punished with the guilty, and again war is an effect of original sin, and is collective punishment.


[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='18 February 2010 - 12:40 AM' timestamp='1266471637' post='2058679']I mean, a different kind of sheep here. And as far as secular leaders to there are never if any that ruled justly. And if they did it was becuase they perscribed heavily to a religion which in one sense takes away the secular nature of their position and makes it religious.
[/quote]

While many have at times ruled unjustly it is quite an error to say all have. God sets up rulers and kings, anarchy is a heresy. You must respect the rulers He has placed in rule over you.

Edited February 18, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='18 February 2010 - 01:56 AM' timestamp='1266472588' post='2058682']


While many have at times ruled unjustly it is quite an error to say all have. God sets up rulers and kings, anarchy is a heresy. You must respect the rulers He has placed in rule over you.
[/quote]

I think this just boils down that you are playing a goat here, and I have a head ache from butting heads, but I will say something about this last part.

The Church does not 'demand' or say that I 'must' respect authority, at least not today's. The CCC only provides two sources of legitimate authority.

One: An authority is appointed by God, which has not happened since the Old Testament with Saul and David.

Two: A government institution that operates for the common good and operates under a morality that is good.

And with these two things in mind, honestly I am not required to obey authority, since they are not legitimate.

Though otherwise, I will not argue further since, as I said before, and I have observed through other instances that ears are plugged and minds are closed or at least narrowed here.

Call it what you will, but doesn't change the circumstance. I know where I am going in essence, and really if I don't obey the government here, does it matter? Not really, becuase in essence I have a greater Authority that loves me for me and would rather let me do what I want if I choose to, but I choose Him.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='17 February 2010 - 07:53 PM' timestamp='1266465231' post='2058638']
Where is your logic in this?

I obviously did not vote for Mr. Obama, others did, in that I can say that it is their mistake and there is blood on their hands. There is no innocent blood on my hands in this, but I will continue my striving to change the hearts and minds of the society that enfolds us. That is what we are doing, nobody is neglecting anybody.
[/quote]

i dont see the logic either.

thats like considering everyone responsible for the tortures/wars/etc under Bush. i wouldnt even consider people who voted him in responsible for that, really.
its the man with the finger on the trigger that is really responsible for a murder.

although i find it odd, considering the amount of conservatives elected president since Roe Vs Wade, with no real movement on abortion as a whole, that people think having McCain instead of Obama would actually do much of anything in the grand scheme of things, abortions wise.
/tangent

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='18 February 2010 - 01:04 AM' timestamp='1266473089' post='2058690']
The Church does not 'demand' or say that I 'must' respect authority, at least not today's. The CCC only provides two sources of legitimate authority.

One: An authority is appointed by God, [b]which has not happened since the Old Testament with Saul and David.
[/b]

Two: A government institution that operates for the common good and operates under a morality that is good.

And with these two things in mind, honestly I am not required to obey authority, since they are not legitimate.

Though otherwise, I will not argue further since, as I said before, and I have observed through other instances that ears are plugged and minds are closed or at least narrowed here.

Call it what you will, but doesn't change the circumstance. I know where I am going in essence, and really if I don't obey the government here, does it matter? Not really, becuase in essence I have a greater Authority that loves me for me and would rather let me do what I want if I choose to, but I choose Him.
[/quote]

"One" is an absurd falsehood, King Saul and David both were long dead when St. Paul wrote Romans 13:1-2. The Church does demand you subject yourself to the rule of the Civil Authority, because God has willed it to exist. You also MUST respect these rulers because their duty in their rule is sacred.

"...in civil society, God has [b]always willed[/b] that there should be a ruling authority, and that they who are invested with it should reflect the divine power and providence in some measure over the human race... In political affairs, and all matters civil, the laws aim at securing the common good, and are not framed according to the delusive caprices and opinions of the mass of the people, but by truth and by justice; the ruling powers are invested with a sacredness more than human, and are withheld from deviating from the path of duty, and from overstepping the bounds of rightful authority; and the obedience is not the servitude of man to man, [b]but submission to the will of God, exercising His sovereignty through the medium of men[/b]. [b]Now, this being recognized as undeniable, it is felt that the high office of rulers should be held in respect; that public authority should be constantly and faithfully obeyed; that no act of sedition should be committed; and that the civic order of the commonwealth should be maintained as sacred.[/b]" IMMORTALE DEI; ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII

[url="http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=32561"]CIVIL ALLEGIANCE[/url]

Duty of respect and obedience owed by every man to the state of which he is a member. In the light of Christian principles this does not mean that one must support his country right or wrong, complying with wrong conditions solely for the sake of security. Spiritual obedience to God and the Church should not conflict with allegiance to lawfully constituted civil authority. As explained by St. Paul, "You must all obey the governing authorities, since all government comes from God, the civil authorities were appointed by God, and so anyone who resists authority is rebelling against God's decision" (Romans 13:1-2).

Rejection, disobedience and disrespect of the Civil Authority is rejection, disobedience and disrespect of God's Authority.

Edited February 18, 2010 by KnightofChrist

[Sternhauser]

"the obedience is not the servitude of man to man, [b]but submission to the will of God, exercising His sovereignty through the medium of men[/b]."


So, what is Leo saying? Is he saying that any acts of of any men in positions of power are actually acts of God, working through proxies? That the will of anyone in power is the will of God?

You would have been howling if Barack Obama had stood up after his win on election day and said, "God has spoken."

~Sternhauser

Edited February 18, 2010 by Sternhauser

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='18 February 2010 - 01:04 AM' timestamp='1266473089' post='2058690']
The Church does not 'demand' or say that I 'must' respect authority, at least not today's. The CCC only provides two sources of legitimate authority.

One: An authority is appointed by God, which has not happened since the Old Testament with Saul and David.

Two: A government institution that operates for the common good and operates under a morality that is good.
[/quote]

Yes, I haven't seen one of these latter in quite some time. In other words, never.

And as an individual in society, I am not a "part" to be used by the "whole."

~Sternhauser

Edited February 18, 2010 by Sternhauser

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='18 February 2010 - 02:27 AM' timestamp='1266474450' post='2058703']
although i find it odd, considering the amount of conservatives elected president since Roe Vs Wade, with no real movement on abortion as a whole, that people think having McCain instead of Obama would actually do much of anything in the grand scheme of things, abortions wise.
/tangent
[/quote]

Exactly. It has all fallen into a system, so much so that everyone, politicians & bureaucrats are afraid of shaking the boat and in essence their power and control. Great help for the rest of us right?


And to KnightofChrist, I respect the Pope's authority, since [i]he[/i], not the government is the aspect of God's authority on earth.

If you are going to go as far as to call all governmental authority as respected legitimate authority than we can call Every single government that has ever existed to be worthy of respect, of course this groups Hitler, Stalin and all the other plethora of leaders that have risen up.

Edited February 18, 2010 by ThePenciledOne

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='18 February 2010 - 09:44 AM' timestamp='1266504277' post='2058764']
"the obedience is not the servitude of man to man, [b]but submission to the will of God, exercising His sovereignty through the medium of men[/b]."


So, what is Leo saying? Is he saying that any acts of of any men in positions of power are actually acts of God, working through proxies? That the will of anyone in power is the will of God? [/quote]


No he did not and that has not been stated. We have a civil duty to have intelligence to good, or the good some not-so-good leaders do.


[quote name='Sternhauser' date='18 February 2010 - 09:44 AM' timestamp='1266504277' post='2058764']You would have been howling if Barack Obama had stood up after his win on election day and said, "God has spoken."

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

It is however the will of God that Obama is President of the Untied States.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='18 February 2010 - 11:46 AM' timestamp='1266511569' post='2058785']
Exactly. It has all fallen into a system, so much so that everyone, politicians & bureaucrats are afraid of shaking the boat and in essence their power and control. Great help for the rest of us right?


And to KnightofChrist, I respect the Pope's authority, since [i]he[/i], not the government is the aspect of God's authority on earth.

If you are going to go as far as to call all governmental authority as respected legitimate authority than we can call Every single government that has ever existed to be worthy of respect, of course this groups Hitler, Stalin and all the other plethora of leaders that have risen up.
[/quote]

I posted the definition from the Catholic Dictionary of Civil Allegiance just so a reference to Nazis and Communists would not have to be used. Not every government is like that of Nazi Germany, or Communist Russia. These are clearly cases of unjust states, they are not the norm, the mere fact that you a citizen of the Untied States can publicly discredit the Government there of, and not be secretly taken away and shot is proof of that.

You own allegiance to this nation and its government.

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='18 February 2010 - 01:20 PM' timestamp='1266513604' post='2058802']
I posted the definition from the Catholic Dictionary of Civil Allegiance just so a reference to Nazis and Communists would not have to be used. Not every government is like that of Nazi Germany, or Communist Russia. These are clearly cases of unjust states, they are not the norm, the mere fact that you a citizen of the Untied States can publicly discredit the Government there of, and not be secretly taken away and shot is proof of that.

You own allegiance to this nation and its government.
[/quote]

So, we will leave the Civil War out of this?

Since, in all of history the United States as been unmarred by any institution it obviously supported in the past.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='18 February 2010 - 12:24 PM' timestamp='1266513858' post='2058804']
So, we will leave the Civil War out of this?

Since, in all of history the United States as been unmarred by any institution it obviously supported in the past.
[/quote]

I make no claims that any human institution is prefect or ever was prefect. The Civil War which happened over one hundred years ago is not an justified reason to reject the authority of the Untied States today.

[goldenchild17]

I missed something. How did ya'll go from the topic of communal guilt/sin to discussing anarchy?

Edited February 18, 2010 by goldenchild17

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='18 February 2010 - 02:51 PM' timestamp='1266519093' post='2058848']
I make no claims that any human institution is prefect or ever was prefect. The Civil War which happened over one hundred years ago is not an justified reason to reject the authority of the Untied States today.
[/quote]

As if it still does not imply since obviously the United States is still allowing the murder of its children. Ok, if you think that is ok, and that sort of government should be obeyed fine by me, but my morals keep getting in the way otherwise.

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='18 February 2010 - 02:56 PM' timestamp='1266519372' post='2058850']
I missed something. How did ya'll go from the topic of communal guilt/sin to discussing anarchy?
[/quote]

We aren't we are more discussing whether government has legitimate authority or not. Since, Stern and I refuse to be grouped in with the country as a whole for the sins of abortion.

Edited February 18, 2010 by ThePenciledOne

[Socrates]

[quote name='goldenchild17' date='18 February 2010 - 01:56 PM' timestamp='1266519372' post='2058850']
I missed something. How did ya'll go from the topic of communal guilt/sin to discussing anarchy?
[/quote]
Because our resident anarchists try to turn threads on [i]every[/i] topic into a thread about anarchism.

Though I disagree with them, they're as entitled to their opinions as much as anyone else; however trying to turn every single thread into a discussion of one's pet cause is very bad form. Sternhauser & co. remind me a lot of this person: "[url="http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/issues.htm"]Issues[/url]."

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='18 February 2010 - 01:27 PM' timestamp='1266521242' post='2058863']We aren't we are more discussing whether government has legitimate authority or not. Since, Stern and I refuse to be grouped in with the country as a whole for the sins of abortion.
[/quote]

ok. Well I agree with KoC that gov't (fairly established and not stolen) is the legitimate authority and that this authority does come from God. However I do think they can perverse their authority and when this occurs we no longer (and really should not any longer) submit to them. But I guess I fail to see what that has to do with being grouped in with the country as a whole in regards to the sin of abortion (or any other sin for that matter).

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='Socrates' date='18 February 2010 - 03:35 PM' timestamp='1266521731' post='2058868']
Because our resident anarchists try to turn threads on [i]every[/i] topic into a thread about anarchism.

[/quote]

It's called thinking outside the box.

[Socrates]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='18 February 2010 - 02:54 PM' timestamp='1266522892' post='2058879']
It's called thinking outside the box.
[/quote]
No, it's called bad manners and being a tedious bore who refuses to think outside one's [i]own[/i] box (in your case, the subject of anarchism).

But I won't derail this thread further; back to the topic of abortion . . .

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='18 February 2010 - 12:24 PM' timestamp='1266513858' post='2058804']
So, we will leave the Civil War out of this?

Since, in all of history the United States as been unmarred by any institution it obviously supported in the past.
[/quote]
[url="http://catholicknight.blogspot.com/2009/02/pope-pius-ix-and-confederacy.html"]Pope Pius IX and the Confederacy[/url]

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Socrates' date='18 February 2010 - 02:35 PM' timestamp='1266521731' post='2058868']
Because our resident anarchists try to turn threads on [i]every[/i] topic into a thread about anarchism.

Though I disagree with them, they're as entitled to their opinions as much as anyone else; however trying to turn every single thread into a discussion of one's pet cause is very bad form. Sternhauser & co. remind me a lot of this person: "[url="http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/warriorshtm/issues.htm"]Issues[/url]."
[/quote]

Bravo, sir. Good taste. That's me all over. I'd like to point out that Knight brought up "anarchy." It was neither Penciled nor I.

~Sternhauser

Edited February 19, 2010 by Sternhauser