Mahoney 'watch' In L.a.? Days Numbered?

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='23 January 2010 - 09:23 PM' timestamp='1264296232' post='2043145']
Iconography, made according to the tradition of the Holy Fathers, is integral to liturgical worship.
[/quote]

If you look along the sides of the Cathedral in that last picture I like so well, you will see artwork all along both sides. I think it is a mural of the Saints. I read a rather moving article about how it was painted but I didn't save the link! Let me see if I can find it.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Maggie' date='23 January 2010 - 06:26 PM' timestamp='1264296378' post='2043148']
Well I think the outside is definitely ugly. But I don't think there is one style that has to be used for it to be a church. I have seen Catholic churches made out of old barns and they were legit. Probably the kids who grow up around the Cathedral will think it looks like a church For the Los Angeles-ites (or whatever you call them) it seems to be an effective place of worship although it still makes me mad what they did to St. Vibiana!
[/quote]
The inside of the building is spiritually sterile, and does not aesthetically create the incarnational atmosphere of a Christian temple. Ultimately monstrosities like the L.A. Cathedral damage the faith of the Church, while also harming the true cause of ecumenism between Catholics and Eastern Orthodox.

[Lilllabettt]

It kind of reminds me of the aesthetic in the chapel of these Benedictine monks in Alabama (see picture below.) The coloring is similar. I was put off at first, but it really did grow on me. The design used a lot of natural lighting, so the ambiance changed throughout the day. In the morning it had quite a cool, clean, Dead Sea feel ... later in the afternoon, it was a lot warmer. There were some weird elements. The designer was a German, working in the Nazi-era ... so the Saints carved in the walls, they're all wearing storm trooper boots. Different aesthetic, for sure.

The LA Cathedral looks like a church to me. Not my taste for sure. The angels/Mary statue are way too out of our tradition, I think, to be helpful in raising the mind to God. Which is what church art/architecture is supposed to do. But the basic elements look okay. Not my taste but okay.

The gold and icon stuff posted does a lot better job. On the other hand, I think ornamentation can get to be too much, you know, as a style. Baroque. It can get to be too much. Sometimes clean lines can be a breath of fresh air.

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/Lilllabettt/churchinside.jpg[/img]

Edited January 24, 2010 by Lilllabettt

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Maggie' date='23 January 2010 - 06:28 PM' timestamp='1264296534' post='2043151']
If you look along the sides of the Cathedral in that last picture I like so well, you will see artwork all along both sides. I think it is a mural of the Saints. I read a rather moving article about how it was painted but I didn't save the link! Let me see if I can find it.
[/quote]
The artwork along the walls are not icons. Western Catholics often to confuse artwork of various kinds with iconography. The bronzes doors of the new cathedral are called art, but it is a stretch to call the imagery Christian iconography (e.g., Samoan Kava Bowl, I Ching/Ti Chi). I find neo-gnostic paganism offensive when used as decoration in a Christian temple.

Edited January 24, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Maggyie]

I was wrong, it's not a mural, it's a series of tapestries, the most famous being the "Communion of Saints" set of tapestries...

[url="http://www.sacred-destinations.com/usa/images/california/los-angeles/cathedral/resized/tapestries-cc-zeetz-jones.jpg"]http://www.sacred-destinations.com/usa/images/california/los-angeles/cathedral/resized/tapestries-cc-zeetz-jones.jpg[/url]

Edited January 24, 2010 by Maggie

[Maggyie]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='23 January 2010 - 09:37 PM' timestamp='1264297045' post='2043157']
The artwork along the walls are not icons. Western Catholics often to confuse artwork of various kinds with iconography. The bronzes doors of the new cathedral are called art, but it is a stretch to call the imagery Christian iconography (e.g., Samoan Kava Bowl, I Ching/Ti Chi). I find neo-gnostic paganism offensive when used as decoration in a Christian temple.
[/quote]

Yeah the doors are gross I agree!

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='23 January 2010 - 06:30 PM' timestamp='1264296618' post='2043153']
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v320/Lilllabettt/churchinside.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
The nihilism / abstractionism of modern Western Churches is sad to see.

Edited January 24, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

As my Eastern Orthodox friends often say to me: "The aesthetic emptiness of many modern Western Churches reveals an iconoclastic mindset, which reflects the separation of man from God."

[jeffpugh]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='23 January 2010 - 08:39 PM' timestamp='1264297197' post='2043161']
The nihilism / abstrationism of modern Western Churches is sad to see.
[/quote]
I have to agree. This space may be too simple, imho. And the altar seems to not have its own place, even though it's at least elevated.

[Laudate_Dominum]

When Gabriel's horn blows, you'd better be ready to go. Swing low. Time to move on.

Swing down, sweet chariot stop, and let me ride...

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='23 January 2010 - 09:39 PM' timestamp='1264297197' post='2043161']
The nihilism / abstractionism of modern Western Churches is sad to see.
[/quote]


Okay. Fyi, there's a long history of stark architecture in the West. The Carthusians and the Franciscans especially; I've seen old-as-dirt chapels that have a crucifix and really no other kind of ornamentation whatsoever. Austerity as devotion. It was interesting, I had a Cistercian explain it to me once.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='23 January 2010 - 07:02 PM' timestamp='1264298555' post='2043173']
Okay. Fyi, there's a long history of stark architecture in the West. The Carthusians and the Franciscans especially; I've seen old-as-dirt chapels that have a crucifix and really no other kind of ornamentation whatsoever. Austerity as devotion. It was interesting, I had a Cistercian explain it to me once.
[/quote]
It isn't simply the starkness, but the abstractionism, which itself betrays a non-incarnational spirituality.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Comin' for to carry you home.

[Apotheoun]

Some helpful texts (in addition to the one I linked to earlier in this thread):

[url="http://books.google.com/books?id=YppZakl7uygC&printsec=frontcover&dq=The+resurrection+and+the+icon&cd=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false"]The Resurrection and the Icon[/url]

[url="http://books.google.com/books?id=SX27r-7g4fAC&printsec=frontcover&dq=The+Icon:+Window+on+the+Kingdom&cd=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false"]The Icon: Window on the Kingdom[/url]

[url="http://books.google.com/books?id=YPYtAAAAYAAJ&q=theology+of+the+icon&dq=theology+of+the+icon&cd=1"]Theology of the Icon[/url] (snippet view only)

[url="http://books.google.com/books?id=x6bYAAAAMAAJ&q=Images+of+the+Divine:+The+Theology+of+Icons+at+the+Seventh+Ecumenical+Council+-+Revised+Edition&dq=Images+of+the+Divine:+The+Theology+of+Icons+at+the+Seventh+Ecumenical+Council+-+Revised+Edition&cd=1"]Images of the Divine: The Theology of Icons at the Seventh Ecumenical Council - Revised Edition[/url] (snippet view only)

[url="http://books.google.com/books?id=khL2qJ7gLPwC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Light+from+the+Christian+East&cd=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false"]Light from the Christian East[/url]

[King's Rook's Pawn]

[quote name='Maggie' date='23 January 2010 - 07:59 PM' timestamp='1264294799' post='2043131']
[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v473/Maggyie/cathedra.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

It's too bright, too beige, and the thing in the middle looks like a crossword puzzle.

I can't stand most modernism. The best art being produced in recent times is in computer games:

[img]http://www.mystworlds.com/ss/uru03.jpg[/img]


[img]http://cache.kotaku.com/gaming/Oblivion.jpg[/img]

Edited January 24, 2010 by King's Rook's Pawn