Mahoney 'watch' In L.a.? Days Numbered?

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Ephrem Augustine' date='23 January 2010 - 10:26 PM' timestamp='1264310777' post='2043275']
[img]http://wapedia.mobi/thumb/259314604/en/fixed/470/627/Da_Qin_Pagoda.jpg[/img]
This is one of the oldest Christian Churches in China, Eighth Century.
Also a note
the Assyrian Churches of the East do not have Icons, and instead of an Iconostasis they have a curtain. This practice was common throughout Persia into the present day, and even influenced the Syro Malabar rite in India.
[/quote]
Actually the pagoda is not the Nestorian Church that was present at that site (see Michael Keevak's book "The Story of a Stele: China's Nestorian Monument and Its Reception in the West, 1625-1916," page 134); instead, it is the Buddhist pagoda that was erected on the same site and which - like most pagodas - contained an image of a local deity (although Martin Palmer in his neo-gnostic book "The Jesus Sutras" tries to support the idea that the images in the pagoda are Byzantine styled relief icons), while also often serving as a monastic library.

As far as the iconographic practices of the Nestorian Church of the East is concerned, the veneration of icons was - under Islamic influence - slowly rejected, but was quite vigorously supported during the Byzantine Iconoclastic crisis during the 8th and 9th centuries (see Dr. Kenneth Parry's book "Depicting the Word," page 80).

Finally, the Syro-Malabar and Syro-Malankara Churches, whether one is referring to their Catholic or Nestorian forms, have been heavily influenced in their worship by Latinization or Nestorianization (depending upon the case), and so one cannot really reconstruct their ancient liturgies with any degree of accuracy.

Edited January 24, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Veridicus]

[quote name='King's Rook's Pawn' date='23 January 2010 - 08:29 PM' timestamp='1264300162' post='2043185']
[img]http://cache.kotaku.com/gaming/Oblivion.jpg[/img]
[/quote]

LOL. It's funny I feel more architecturally at home playing Oblivion than in half the Church's in my city.

[Ephrem Augustine]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='24 January 2010 - 11:34 AM' timestamp='1264350893' post='2043427']
Actually the pagoda is not the Nestorian Church that was present at that site (see Michael Keevak's book "The Story of a Stele: China's Nestorian Monument and Its Reception in the West, 1625-1916," page 134); instead, it is the Buddhist pagoda that was erected on the same site and which - like most pagodas - contained an image of a local deity (although Martin Palmer in his neo-gnostic book "The Jesus Sutras" tries to support the idea that the images in the pagoda are Byzantine styled relief icons), while also often serving as a monastic library.

As far as the iconographic practices of the Nestorian Church of the East is concerned, the veneration of icons was - under Islamic influence - slowly rejected, but was quite vigorously supported during the Byzantine Iconoclastic crisis during the 8th and 9th centuries (see Dr. Kenneth Parry's book "Depicting the Word," page 80).

Finally, the Syro-Malabar and Syro-Malankara Churches, whether one is referring to their Catholic or Nestorian forms, have been heavily influenced in their worship by Latinization or Nestorianization (depending upon the case), and so one cannot really reconstruct their ancient liturgies with any degree of accuracy.
[/quote]

When the Assyrian Church of the East and the Vatican have come up with a common Christological decleration, it certainly changes our discussion on the history of Nestorian Christians. Martin Palmer probably is neo-Gnostic, and his translation might be as well, but the "Jesus Sutras" were a document written by Nestorian Christians in China in order to present the Gospel in a way that was intelligible to the people who already had a rich Daoist and Buddhist heritage, but weren't interested in Greek philosophical speculative questions and categories. Hopefully a more appropriate translation could be attained in the future. Maybe the Pagoda is contentious...
As for my point of about the Syro Malabar rite, I was referring to the curtain around the Sanctuary being as valid as the Iconostasis, because you are right, there has been some Nestorianization or Latinization, and I made no attempt to reconstruct the liturgies at all.
Overall, my main reason for participating in this discussion is that we may have a right to contend the quality of Cardinal Mahony's pastoral skills, but this discussion turned into more of a venting room against the Cathedral of Our Lady of the Angels. I never felt that part was appropriate.

Norseman, I live in Chicago for formation, i live here by no particular preference of mine. I have no refuge in the freezing bitter cold.

It might be very easy for people who have grown up as part of a religious or ethnic majority to label or scoff at those who are different, because your world is surrounded by right angles, where everyone is the same, and the answers are clear. But in LA, everyone is different, no joke, my neighbors were literally from China, Poland, Armenia, the Philippines, Mexico, Korea, and Lebanon, it might be more difficult to frame a world in right angles that way. So if you understand don't understand what it means to be a minority in your own home, then I don't know what to say to you. Easy broad sweeping generalizations sound like more nonsense.

Edited January 24, 2010 by Ephrem Augustine

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Ephrem Augustine' date='24 January 2010 - 11:52 AM' timestamp='1264359141' post='2043527']
As for my point of about the Syro Malabar rite, I was referring to the curtain around the Sanctuary being as valid as the Iconostasis, because you are right, there has been some Nestorianization or Latinization, and I made no attempt to reconstruct the liturgies at all.
[/quote]
The curtain is also used in Byzantine Churches as a part of the iconostas, but my point remains, since the lack of icons in Nestorian Churches, and in those that have been influenced by them over the course of the last few centuries, is not ancient, but came about through the influence of the iconoclastic views of Islam.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Ephrem Augustine' date='24 January 2010 - 11:52 AM' timestamp='1264359141' post='2043527']
Overall, my main reason for participating in this discussion is that we may have a right to contend the quality of Cardinal Mahony's pastoral skills, but this discussion turned into more of a venting room against the Cathedral of Our Lady of the Angels. I never felt that part was appropriate.[/quote]
Catholics have every right to question both the quality of Cardinal Mahony's pastoral skills, and the traditional Christian aesthetic quality, or lack thereof, of the L.A. cathedral.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Ephrem Augustine' date='24 January 2010 - 01:52 PM' timestamp='1264359141' post='2043527']

Norseman, I live in Chicago for formation, i live here by no particular preference of mine. I have no refuge in the freezing bitter cold.

[/quote]

OK, but please realize that for those of us who came of age in the 80's California had a "granola" type of reputation and so is reflected in our humor.

Just out of curiosity, what formation program are you in? Are you Assyrian or Syro-Malabar?

Edited January 24, 2010 by Norseman82

[homeschoolmom]

Here's my cathedral (as long as we're "sharing"). Terra Firma was married here. It was awesomeness...

[img]http://pics4.city-data.com/cpicv/vfiles8726.jpg[/img]

[img]http://minnesota-attractions.com/pictures/cathedral_in.jpeg[/img]

[Gregorius]

Where is that? I think I've been there before.

[homeschoolmom]

St. Paul, Minnesota.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='King's Rook's Pawn' date='23 January 2010 - 09:40 PM' timestamp='1264300849' post='2043194']
A lot of that baroque rococo stuff went too far in the other direction: way too garish and gaudy.
[/quote]



Rococo is a beautiful style of ecclesiastical architecture that admirably demonstrates the noble simplicity of the Roman Rite:

[IMG]http://i49.tinypic.com/2vkx75y.jpg[/IMG]

Edited January 24, 2010 by Resurrexi

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='23 January 2010 - 07:47 PM' timestamp='1264294047' post='2043124']
Am I the only one who thinks its kind of tasteless to be on "Mahoney watch" counting down the days 'till he's gone? I mean this isn't a politician we're talking about here, right? I don't know. Seems sort of crass.
[/quote]
I agree. I don't like many/most of the actions of the man, but he is still both a bishop AND a cardinal of Christ's church. That alone garners some of my respect.
[quote name='Maggie' date='23 January 2010 - 07:59 PM' timestamp='1264294799' post='2043131']
To me this is a GORGEOUS picture!!! Totally changes my impression of the Cathedral! It reminds me of a Carthusian monastery in its simplicity... never thought I would say that about the "Taj Mahoney"!!!

[img]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v473/Maggyie/cathedra.jpg[/img]
[/quote]
I don't know if I'd say gorgeous, but I do find that photo much more attractive a view than the others I've seen.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' date='24 January 2010 - 05:58 PM' timestamp='1264377528' post='2043785']
I agree. I don't like many/most of the actions of the man, but he is still both a bishop AND a cardinal of Christ's church. That alone garners some of my respect.

I don't know if I'd say gorgeous, but I do find that photo much more attractive a view than the others I've seen.
[/quote]

I have a tremendous respect for Bishop Mahoney's episcopal office.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='24 January 2010 - 06:57 PM' timestamp='1264377433' post='2043784']


Rococo is a beautiful style of ecclesiastical architecture that admirably demonstrates the noble simplicity of the Roman Rite:

[/quote]
Agree.
I love the Baroque æsthetic period.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='24 January 2010 - 05:57 PM' timestamp='1264377433' post='2043784']
[IMG]http://i49.tinypic.com/2vkx75y.jpg[/IMG]
[/quote]

Beautiful Church. I'll take this over the Alien vs Predator -esque Tabernacle of [s]Taj Mahoney[/s] the LA Cathedral any day.

Edited January 25, 2010 by Veridicus

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='24 January 2010 - 07:09 PM' timestamp='1264378151' post='2043793']
Beautiful Church. I'll take this over the Alien vs Predator -esque Tabernacle of Taj Mahoney any day.
[/quote]
Now, now... watch the name calling. That's not cool.