Responding To The Crusades

[Hilde]

I wanted to make a thread about atheis type utopias, but right now I felt like focusing on the crusades.

I have heard the crusades being brought up as arguments anti-Catholic/Christian/organized religion/religion. In all these instances I have heard it. Especially in "religion is the root of all evil" statements. Along with the inquisition, payed indulgences, Galileo et cetera.

How do you respond when people bring it up?

[Jesus_lol]

the Crusades are a good example of "the evil men do" in the name of God, politics, greed. doesnt reflect badly on God for me, but it sure as hell reflects badly on the people involved.

[Happy_Catholic]

I just ask said pleb if they blame the Germans for the holocaust and if they support the destruction of Germany? Especially since the Holocaust happened about 60 years ago when the crusades and what not happened hundreds of years ago. I mean, there are still Germans who were alive during the Holocaust, how many Catholics were alive during the Inquisition?

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Hilde' date='28 January 2010 - 06:31 PM' timestamp='1264725068' post='2046760']
I wanted to make a thread about atheis type utopias, but right now I felt like focusing on the crusades.

I have heard the crusades being brought up as arguments anti-Catholic/Christian/organized religion/religion. In all these instances I have heard it. Especially in "religion is the root of all evil" statements. Along with the inquisition, payed indulgences, Galileo et cetera.

How do you respond when people bring it up?
[/quote]

Steps for defeating arguments pertaining to the above-mentioned topics:

1. Read non-biased information regarding Gallileo, Crusades, Inquisition. Develop a decent basic grasp of these topics.

2. When someone brings one of these topics up in casual conversation as proof against God/Catholicism it usually goes something like this: "Yeah the Catholic Church has made mistakes before. You know like with Galileo, the Crusades, the Inquisition."

3. Don't let the conversation end there. Challenge their assertion by asking for specifics from them about what makes these events such 'matchpoint' criticisms against the Church. In my experience, most people have absolutely no historical knowledge about these events besides the general sentiment that they are proof against the Catholic Church.

4. Demonstrate your knowledge of these situations explaining the politico-cultural aspects of these topics which will undermine the other person's only cursory info of the events. The reality is that like all human events these are full of economics, political intrigue, state corruption.

As Will Durant, famed historian, once said: "History is mostly guessing...and the rest is prejudice." I think that the Crusades, Inquisition, and Galileo trials are key examples of a historically-shallow appraisal of the events belying a deep-seated anti-Catholicism in the Enlightenment (and beyond) progressive intellectual elites. Remember that no one called the 'Dark Ages' [i]dark [/i]until the Enlightenment thinkers were in need of antecedent age of inadequacy to juxtapose their own self-styled refulgence.

Peace,

Todd W.

Edited January 29, 2010 by Veridicus

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Happy_Catholic' date='28 January 2010 - 04:50 PM' timestamp='1264726217' post='2046783']
I just ask said pleb if they blame the Germans for the holocaust and if they support the destruction of Germany? Especially since the Holocaust happened about 60 years ago when the crusades and what not happened hundreds of years ago. I mean, there are still Germans who were alive during the Holocaust, how many Catholics were alive during the Inquisition?
[/quote]

you might want to specify which Germans. cause the nazis were all german, but not all the germans were nazis. which i guess is kindof your point.

[King's Rook's Pawn]

People commit violence against others because they're violent. A religious belief may be a motivating factor, but so may countless other things, including secular ideologies. Does that mean that all ideology is bad?

[Resurrexi]

I like the crusades and think they were a very good thing.

[Veridicus]

There's actually a very good lecture series by the Teaching Company about the Crusades: [url="http://www.teach12.com/ttcx/CourseDescLong2.aspx?cid=390"]Era of the Crusades[/url]

[zunshynn]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='28 January 2010 - 06:28 PM' timestamp='1264728497' post='2046827']
I like the crusades and think they were a very good thing.
[/quote]

I knew you were going to say that.

[Saint Therese]

I heard on some protestant radio station someone saying that during the Crusades the Catholics killed 50 million people. I mean, that's just ridiculous.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Saint Therese' date='28 January 2010 - 07:33 PM' timestamp='1264728813' post='2046836']
I heard on some protestant radio station someone saying that [s]during the Crusades the [/s]Catholics [s]killed 50 million people[/s] [insert half truth or biased vilification].
[/quote]

Fixed it for you. Now it works for any occasion.

[Nihil Obstat]

50 million would most likely be a sixth of the population or more of the world at any given time.
I feel skepticism burning inside me.

[Resurrexi]

By fighting in the crusades, many man were able to deny themselves, take up their cross, and follow Christ.

[Saint Therese]

I seriously doubt there were fifty million people in Europe and the middle east combined during that time.

[Winchester]

The Crusades began after muslim invasion, not before. They were a response, not an opening statement. Had the crusades not occured, Martin Luther might have been named Mohammed Laden.

[Resurrexi]

The crusades were an excellent political strategy on the part of the reforming popes. What could be a better way to keep Christians from fighting among themselves than to send them off to fight a common, non-Christian enemy?

[Winchester]

An enemy that had taken to killing unarmed pilgrims.

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='28 January 2010 - 09:06 PM' timestamp='1264730791' post='2046875']
The crusades were an excellent political strategy on the part of the reforming popes. What could be a better way to keep Christians from fighting among themselves than to send them off to fight a common, non-Christian enemy?
[/quote]

I agree with your first post on this thread, but not this one. If the crusades were simply a distraction technique they were in no way justified.

[Winchester]

They were for survival. The muslims weren't sitting around making pies and nesting dolls when the vicious Christians set upon them.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='28 January 2010 - 09:17 PM' timestamp='1264731421' post='2046884']
I agree with your first post on this thread, but not this one. If the crusades were simply a distraction technique they were in no way justified.
[/quote]

I never said that the crusades were just a distraction technique; however, that was definitely one of the many benefits of the crusades.

Edited January 29, 2010 by Resurrexi