Responding To The Crusades

[King's Rook's Pawn]

That history is very complicated. It was a thousand years of back-and-forth with all kinds of conflicting political influences and agendas. I will not say that the Crusades were a noble and glorious endeavor, but the Crusaders weren't just "the bad guys" opposed to the Turkish "good guys."

Edited January 29, 2010 by King's Rook's Pawn

[BG45]

And if one wishes a more secular line of thought on a benefit of the Crusades...trade, exchange of knowledge, a drive to explore the rest of the world, etc. Muslim doctors were the best in the world at that time, and Christians learned a great deal of new medical techniques from them. Some of the more advanced of the semi-basic mathematics came from the Middle East to Europe during and following the Crusades. Items like silks and spices showed Europe that were were new things to see beyond its own borders, new things to experience. Also the crusaders themselves upon returning home, would fill their neighbors and family with stories of what they had experienced, which couldn't have hurt to instill a sense of wonder at what lay beyond in the rest of the world.

[cmotherofpirl]

Good reads on the topic:


God's Battalions: The Case for the Crusades (Hardcover)



The Lost History of Christianity: The Thousand-Year Golden Age of the Church in the Middle East, Africa, and Asia--and How It Died (Hardcover)

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='28 January 2010 - 10:51 PM' timestamp='1264737065' post='2046973']
Good reads on the topic:


God's Battalions: The Case for the Crusades (Hardcover)
[/quote]

Great book. I've read about half so far.

[CatherineM]

I think it is silly to put modern ideals and morals on people living 1000 years ago. Their culture was different, their ideas of right and wrong were different and who are we to judge how they lived their lives.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='CatherineM' date='28 January 2010 - 11:18 PM' timestamp='1264738715' post='2047020']
I think it is silly to put modern ideals and morals on people living 1000 years ago. Their culture was different, their ideas of right and wrong were different and who are we to judge how they lived their lives.
[/quote]

My ideas of right and wrong aren't at all different from those of Medieval scholastic theologians (or at least I hope they aren't).

[CatherineM]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='28 January 2010 - 10:19 PM' timestamp='1264738795' post='2047024']
My ideas of right and wrong aren't at all different from those of Medieval scholastic theologians (or at least I hope they aren't).
[/quote]
I'm not talking about the big stuff, but a million little things. Their ideas of nutrition, health care, hygiene, etc. I wasn't thinking about right and wrong as in killing or stealing, but as in the right and wrong way to do things in everyday life.

[Chestertonian]

In general, religion has a much better track record than the absence of religion does (Stalin, Pot, Mao....). Read "The Victory of Reason" by Rodney Stark.

Edited January 29, 2010 by Chestertonian

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='28 January 2010 - 05:56 PM' timestamp='1264730180' post='2046861']
By fighting in the crusades, many man were able to deny themselves, take up their cross, and follow Christ.
[/quote]

many were also given license to rape and murder in the name of a higher power. ends and means?


[quote name='Resurrexi' date='28 January 2010 - 06:06 PM' timestamp='1264730791' post='2046875']
The crusades were an excellent political strategy on the part of the reforming popes. What could be a better way to keep Christians from fighting among themselves than to send them off to fight a common, non-Christian enemy?
[/quote]

except for the last one where everyone ignored the pope and attacked and burned/looted another christian city for political and monetary gain.

[Veridicus]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='28 January 2010 - 11:10 PM' timestamp='1264741850' post='2047077']
many were also given license to rape and murder in the name of a higher power. ends and means?
[/quote]

I don't remember the papal bull legitimizing rape or murder? Perhaps you could quote that for me. And killing in war is not necessarily illicit killing.


[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='28 January 2010 - 11:10 PM' timestamp='1264741850' post='2047077']
except for the last one where everyone ignored the pope and attacked and burned/looted another christian city for political and monetary gain.
[/quote]
That was actually the 4th Crusade where Constantinople was sacked.

[KeenanParkerII]

If my first year history serves well, the entire population of Europe was about 65 million between the first and second crusades. I think someone is exaggerating.. just a little bit.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='29 January 2010 - 05:50 AM' timestamp='1264773044' post='2047211']
I don't remember the papal bull legitimizing rape or murder? Perhaps you could quote that for me. And killing in war is not necessarily illicit killing.



That was actually the 4th Crusade where Constantinople was sacked.
[/quote]

no, the pope didnt legitimize it, but it still happened, and many officials encouraged or stodd by while it did. thats why i think the crusades where evil, despite their intentions.


i thought the fourth one was the last one? or are you counting the indiana jones movie?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='29 January 2010 - 11:45 AM' timestamp='1264779907' post='2047246']
no, the pope didnt legitimize it, but it still happened, and many officials encouraged or stodd by while it did. thats why i think the crusades where evil, despite their intentions.


i thought the fourth one was the last one? or are you counting the indiana jones movie?
[/quote]
O so someone goes outand does something even when not authorized, so you still blame the church??? nice.....

[Winchester]

I don't take it as blaming the Church, but as stating that human actions are monolithic.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Winchester' date='29 January 2010 - 11:41 AM' timestamp='1264783298' post='2047258']
I don't take it.. uh huh...
[/quote]
Btw, I meant this kind of radical:

[IMG]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/radical_islam.jpg[/IMG]

[Winchester]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='29 January 2010 - 12:47 PM' timestamp='1264787272' post='2047277']
Btw, I meant this kind of radical:

[IMG]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/radical_islam.jpg[/IMG]
[/quote]
wish granted.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='29 January 2010 - 08:33 AM' timestamp='1264782786' post='2047256']
O so someone goes outand does something even when not authorized, so you still blame the church??? nice.....
[/quote]

actually i wasnt blaming the church. i was blaming the crusades. personally i think the crusades were a very bad thing, despite that they may have started in the best intentions, they quickly went south, but continued to do so.

yes, the pope didnt order any of the bad stuff. so yeah, the pope is ok. but there were a whole lot more people than just the pope in charge of the crusades, and i blame a lot of them.

in other words, church ok, crusades bad, people who ran the crusades during the bad time = bad

[Winchester]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='29 January 2010 - 12:53 PM' timestamp='1264787585' post='2047285']
NO U![/quote]

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='Winchester' date='29 January 2010 - 12:51 PM' timestamp='1264787514' post='2047282']
wish granted.
[/quote]
never fail to delivery.

You Rock!

[IMG]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/scary-frightening-evil-ronald-mcdon.jpg[/IMG]

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[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Winchester'] [/quote]

[img]http://apleasingfiveness.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/no_u.jpg[/img]

Edited January 29, 2010 by Jesus_lol