The Heavens Are Silent

[Era Might]

I cannot shake the feeling that there is no God. The Gospel makes sense to me. Christ makes sense to me. If there is a God, then Christ is certainly God. And yet the Heavens are silent. The ancient Greeks were convinced of a world of gods in the heavens. They were as convinced about their gods as we are about Christ. And yet today we look back at the Greek gods and chuckle that anyone ever believed in them, even if we regard the Greek myths as interesting stories. I cannot shake the feeling that Christ is our "interesting story." If there is no God, then Christ is certainly the greatest work of fiction that the world ever has or ever will create. If there is no God, then why not believe in Christ? At least he's a beautiful story, even if it's not true. But still, the heavens are silent. I have never seen any cripples cured before my eyes. I have never seen a person raised from the dead. I have never seen any visions. I am not saying that these things did not happen as the Gospels say they did...I'm just saying that I've never seen them. The Greeks also believed in all kinds of wondrous events...and yet those events that the Greeks believed in were false, because the Greek gods were false.

This post is not meant as a declaration of atheism, I'm just throwing out something that's been on my mind. Feel free to respond however you want.

I cannot shake these lines from my mind:

[quote]She should have died hereafter;
There would have been a time for such a word.
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time,
And all our yesterdays have lighted f[i][/i]ools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

--From Shakespeare's "Macbeth"[/quote]
"Signifying nothing." As I said, I cannot shake the feeling that life signifies nothing. In other words, it feels like God is like literature: beautiful, powerful, mysterious, paradoxical, challenging...but ultimately, he is a work of fiction whom we create for amusement and comfort, because if there is no god, he is certainly worth creating in our minds. There is a reason why religion exists in every culture and every age. Either the reason is because there is a God whom people seek, or the reason is because we need to create God just to have the strength to wake up every day. I honestly don't know what the reason is anymore, I just know that it is a beautiful belief that there is a God, whether that belief is true or false.

[Lil Red]

+JMJ+
imho,
it sounds like to me, the devil is working on you hard, tempting you to despair. I will pray for Mary's intercession for you today.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='04 March 2010 - 02:17 PM' timestamp='1267730278' post='2066562']
+JMJ+
imho,
it sounds like to me, the devil is working on you hard, tempting you to despair. I will pray for Mary's intercession for you today.
[/quote]
Thanks, I appreciate it.

(Just to add a note before others post, I do not mean for this thread to be about me. I really mean for it to be about the issue that I'm raising.)

[Thy Geekdom Come]

I've felt that before and Ratzinger addresses it in Introduction to Christianity. That moment when the whole structure of the faith appears as a beautiful castle, but the castle is hovering over a chasm. It all makes sense, but you don't know if it's true.

I think an increasing number of people are feeling this in the current climate of our society. We must resist the arrogance of asking "what if?" We must believe what seems reasonable to us.

I believe because of the beauty of Christianity and the truth my soul finds in that beauty. I believe because of the testimony of reliable witnesses. I believe even when God seems invisible, there are so many signs of Him. You can't see a black hole itself, but we say that we see a black hole precisely when we see nothing in the midst of everything. I believe in God because when I observe the world, I see it coming from Him and coming back to Him. I see all the lights of the saints around Him. I see the virtues that make them move about ever closer to Him. I see how Christianity makes perfect sense in our world and is the solution to our problems. I see the goodness and purity and love unmatched in all other beliefs. I do not see God, but I know He's there, because none of what I see makes any sense without Him, and the whole world only makes sense in the light of Christ.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Era Might' date='04 March 2010 - 03:02 PM' timestamp='1267729337' post='2066553']
I cannot shake the feeling that there is no God. The Gospel makes sense to me. Christ makes sense to me. If there is a God, then Christ is certainly God. And yet the Heavens are silent. The ancient Greeks were convinced of a world of gods in the heavens. They were as convinced about their gods as we are about Christ. And yet today we look back at the Greek gods and chuckle that anyone ever believed in them, even if we regard the Greek myths as interesting stories. I cannot shake the feeling that Christ is our "interesting story." If there is no God, then Christ is certainly the greatest work of fiction that the world ever has or ever will create. If there is no God, then why not believe in Christ? At least he's a beautiful story, even if it's not true. But still, the heavens are silent. I have never seen any cripples cured before my eyes. I have never seen a person raised from the dead. I have never seen any visions. I am not saying that these things did not happen as the Gospels say they did...I'm just saying that I've never seen them. The Greeks also believed in all kinds of wondrous events...and yet those events that the Greeks believed in were false, because the Greek gods were false.

This post is not meant as a declaration of atheism, I'm just throwing out something that's been on my mind. Feel free to respond however you want.

I cannot shake these lines from my mind:


"Signifying nothing." As I said, I cannot shake the feeling that life signifies nothing. In other words, it feels like God is like literature: beautiful, powerful, mysterious, paradoxical, challenging...but ultimately, he is a work of fiction whom we create for amusement and comfort, because if there is no god, he is certainly worth creating in our minds. There is a reason why religion exists in every culture and every age. Either the reason is because there is a God whom people seek, or the reason is because we need to create God just to have the strength to wake up every day. I honestly don't know what the reason is anymore, I just know that it is a beautiful belief that there is a God, whether that belief is true or false.
[/quote]
I understand your feeling, I have been there. I think though, if there really were not a God, then we wouldn't have those feelings of fair play, of love, honor or dignity inside each and every one of us. I see no biological necessity for love, self-sacrifice etc without God. There are many days it would be easier not to have God, but I can't imagine existance without him, because those implanted qualities make us human, and the worst actions of humanity ALWAYS involve us ignoring or disregarding them to everyone's peril.

[Apotheoun]

I hear God in the silence.

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='Era Might' date='04 March 2010 - 03:02 PM' timestamp='1267729337' post='2066553']
Either the reason is because there is a God whom people seek, or the reason is because we need to create God just to have the strength to wake up every day.
[/quote]
I have felt with these feelings before; though certainly not as eloquently nor intelligently as your have stated. But that line of yours is something that I thought of as well.

And as I wrestled with that, I ultimately thought why create a God so mysterious and hidden? So mysterious and hidden that it could quite possibly lead me away in disbelief? Why create something in my mind (or in 'society's mind') that could be 'hard to see'? Why not choose something like the goddess of the coffee maker; who I see every morning, who I can touch, see, and taste her loveliness with no or limited need for faith?

Just my thoughts, bro. I'll be praying for you.

Pax

MIKolbe

[Ed Normile]

I think there was only one occasion where God actually provided proof for a human, and that was the apostle Thomas, that is where the saying doubting Thomas comes from. I guess I was blessed to believe without ever doubting God. I have seen miracles, not just the most perfect miracle I witness every sunday at mass either. I am dumbfounded how anyone can not beleive in God. Jesus is a historical figure how could he be a myth? I also feel its a vanity to need proof of God. what did Jesus say, beleive with a child-like faith.

ed

[Marie-Therese]

I get you, Era. I was a self proclaimed atheist for about 10 years. I was raised Southern Baptist, so that should tell you something.

I actually have seen miracles. I have seen people who were cured. I have seen and experienced people who were gifted with the ability to prophesy. However, these things are not what I base my faith on. Jesus Himself said that no sign would be given to this generation except the sign of Jonah. God pulled out all the stops for the children of Israel. I mean, he parted the Red Sea, for pete's sake! That didn't stop them from promptly turning around and worshiping the golden calf. God gave and gave and gave, and people still ignored Him. So He sent the spotless Lamb, made propitiation for our sin, and then left the rest to us.

Struggling with faith is a tough thing. Spiritual desolation is such a hard thing to experience. I am reading a book right now that deals with Ignatian discernment of spirits and it discusses just this thing. If you are unfamiliar with that topic, I highly recommend it as reading material. Btw, the book I am reading is The Discernment of Spirits by Fr. Gallagher.

Prayers for you, brother.

[Winchester]

If you adopted feudal monarchy, things would be easier.

Seriously, I think about that all the time.

[Sternhauser]

Sometimes, the only thing that keeps me going are these truths:

I've seen people commit tremendous evils. And on the other hand, I've seen people who live their lives according to the Gospel, and it is a beautiful thing. Nobody who lives out the Gospel inflicts suffering or death on the innocent. I see what the Church teaches, and recognize it as the most logically-consistent body of philosophy on the face of the earth, if nothing else. To paraphrase: It has the words of life: to whom else shall I go?

I've been blessed by experiencing a miracle, as well. A mini-miracle, but a miracle nonetheless. It really is true: miracles aren't for those who don't believe, but they help keep strong the faith of those who do believe.

Faith is belief in things unseen. Unseen, of course, doesn't mean non-existent. We have so many desires in this life. We thirst, and there is water to satisfy it. We hunger, and there is food to satisfy it. We want warmth, and there are heat sources to satisfy us. Every earthly desire that exists has something that can satisfy it. It stands to reason that if we have desires that cannot be satisfied on this earth, there must be something to satisfy them somewhere. Because not all our desires are merely physical. We desire perfection. We haven't ever [i]seen[/i] perfection, but we still speak of it, and we still want it. It is not strictly rational, if we are merely earth-dwellers who live for a time and then cease to exist, as though "before we were born," to desire a state of perfection, but it is not irrational, either. It is this desire that keeps tugging us toward Him Who we call God.

At times, we must seek out the next world even if we've lost the scent of the trail: we sometimes have to operate on a kind of "hunch."

~Sternhauser

[Apotheoun]

This thread makes me think of Elijah and the cave.

[OraProMe]

I'm going to save your post. You beautifully expressed what I've been struggling with. The thing you wrote about fearing that God is like a piece of literature, beautiful and poignant but ultimately a human creation, is so very true.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='04 March 2010 - 11:51 PM' timestamp='1267764710' post='2066922']I see what the Church teaches, and recognize it as the most logically-consistent body of philosophy on the face of the earth, if nothing else. To paraphrase: It has the words of life: to whom else shall I go? [/quote]
See, this is part of my problem. I can no longer accept what the Church is saying.

I believe in the Gospel. In the essentials, I certainly agree with the Church (Christ's divinity, the Holy Trinity, the authority of the Apostles, etc.). But I see a large disconnect between the Church of the Gospels and the Church that has developed over the centuries. Without going into all the details here, my point is that the arguments of the Patrick Madrids and Scott Hahns of the world no longer cut it for me. The Church has lost its credibility with me. And I am told that the Holy Spirit is responsible for the development of the Church. Unlike you, I cannot see the Church's teaching as a "logically-consistent body of philosophy." I think that history shows how much of the Church's development is due to the the influence and corruption of the world around it (just like any other religion). And yet I am told that the Holy Spirit guides the development of the Church.

So I am faced with a dilemma. If I cannot accept so much of what the Church has become, and if Christ is inseparable from the Church (and if the Holy Spirit has guided the Church to what it has become), then what am I to make of Christ?

Now, certainly I believe that Christ is inseparable from the Church, because the Church is Christ's Body. But some people say that the Church as an institution is part of what I must accept. And I just cannot accept the institutionalization of the Gospel that the Church has become. So I am left in a vague area. I can believe in Christ's divinity. I can believe in the Holy Trinity. I can believe in the authority of the Apostles. I can believe in Apostolic succession. I can believe in the Holy Eucharist. But I am nevertheless excluded from the Church (at least by the Church's "orthodox" standard as I understand it), because I cannot accept what the Church has become.

So if I cannot accept the Church as it has become, then how can I believe in Christ, even though I believe that the Gospel is absolutely perfect? (This question is not directed at you, it's just meant as a rhetorical question).

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Era Might' date='05 March 2010 - 12:03 AM' timestamp='1267765382' post='2066933']
See, this is part of my problem. I can no longer accept what the Church is saying.

I believe in the Gospel. In the essentials, I certainly agree with the Church (Christ's divinity, the Holy Trinity, the authority of the Apostles, etc.). But I see a large disconnect between the Church of the Gospels and the Church that has developed over the centuries. Without going to all the details here, my point is that the arguments of the Pat Madrids and Scott Hahns of the world no longer cut it for me. The Church has lost its credibility with me. And I am told that the Holy Spirit is responsible for the development of the Church. Unlike you, I can no longer see the Church as a "logically-consistent body of philosophy." I think that history shows how much the Church has been influence by history (like any other religion). And yet I am told that the Holy Spirit guides the development of the Church.

So I am faced with a dilemma. If I cannot accept so much of what the Church has become, and if Christ is inseparable from the Church (and has guided the Church to what it has become), then what am I to make of Christ?

Now, certainly I believe that Christ is inseparable from the Church, because the Church is Christ's Body. But some people say that the Church as an institution is part of what I must accept. And I just cannot accept the institutionalization of the Gospel that the Church has become. So I am left in a vague area. I can believe in Christ's divinity. I can believe in the Holy Trinity. I can believe in the authority of the Apostles. I can believe in the Holy Eucharist. But I am nevertheless excluded from the Church (at least by the usual "orthodox" standard as I understand it).

So if I cannot accept the Church as it has become, then how can I believe in Christ, even though I believe that the Gospel is absolutely perfect? (This question is not directed at you, it's just meant as a rhetorical question).
[/quote]

Era, I think you may be looking at it from the wrong angle. The Holy Spirit does guide the development of the Church, but that does not mean, as you also said, that it has necessarily "guided the Church to what it has become," if by that you mean "the Holy Spirit has only ever allowed every aspect of the Church to be exactly what it should be." You have to look at what it means for the Holy Spirit to guide the Church. Look at how Israel strayed from God. God did not abandon Israel. Look at how Hosea's wife strayed from him. But Hosea did not abandon her. As an institution, God made only a few promises to the Church and its members. God just promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against Her. He set up St. Peter as his Vicar, and since Christ has not returned, the keys of the kingdom get passed to the next Vicar of God's kingdom on earth. The vicar might not always do the best job, and the servants certainly aren't always doing what they're supposed to be doing, but that does not mean that he is not the vicar anymore, or that the servants are wholly useless and should spend all their time in earthly pursuits. Jesus also promised that He would be with the Church until the end of time. But above all, He promised us trouble. Scandal. Strife. Opposition. He was betrayed by one of his own disciples. Hand-picked. Jesus certainly didn't approve of what Judas did, but it "must needs be," as He said of such scandals. St. Paul spoke of danger from false brethren. St. John said that even the elect, (if possible) would be led astray. But peace can still be found in the teachings of Christ and in His Church. It is impossible to consider a world without Christian influence. Nobody can fathom a world in which forgiveness, doing good to one's enemies instead of avenging oneself, are not at least given lip service. The world can never go back to a time when Christ's influence will never be felt. The Church, as an institution, is still the largest provider of charity in the entire world. That fruit should at least show you something of the nature of the Church.

What part of the "institution" of the Church are you having difficulty with?

You mustn't let the wolves in sheep's clothing make you shy away from the other sheep, or the abusive hireling drive you away from the Good Shepherd.

~Sternhauser

[cmotherofpirl]

I do understand your dilemma Era. However,you can't say what the Church [i]is[/i] as a whole, because we only see the earthly part of it mixed up in the fallen nature of humanity. We can't see the choirs of angels, the communion of Saints, God Almighty, the glory and infinity of heaven. We get glimpses of it in Revelations and in the lives of some of the saints, but that is as close as we get.
Looking at it from our point of view it can be a pretty solid mess, but I really don't think of that as anything new. The human end of the deal has been a solid mess since the fall of Adam and Eve. Every generation since Cain and Abel has had scandals, stupidities and sin, and until the Second coming not much will change. Every generation has its saints as well to lead the way and demonstrate holiness, obedience and love of God.
The Holy Spirit guides the Church in that we get course corrections away from the cliffs, and then of course we head towards a different disaster and we get course corrected again. I'm not gonna do the "we are church" line because that simply emphasizes the here and now, and not the eternal Body of Christ which is our home.
When I get in that mood I go re-read C. S. Lewis.
This passage has stuck in my mind ever since I read The Silver Chair.
"For context, Puddleglum the Marshwiggle, along with 2 children and a prince, is trapped in an underground world by an evil witch. The witch uses her powers to try to persuade her captives to forget the world above, telling them that their idea of a sun simply stems from seeing lamps and wishing for a bigger better lamp, and their idea of a lion stems from seeing cats and wishing for a bigger and better cat. After a few moments, Puddleglum answers:

"'One word, Ma'am,' he said... 'One word. All you've been saying is quite right, I shouldn't wonder. I'm a chap who always liked to know the worst and then put the best face I can on it. So I won't deny any of what you said. But there's one thing more to be said, even so. Suppose we have only dreamed, or made up, all those things--trees and grass and sun and moon and stars and Aslan himself. Supose we have. Then all I can say is that, in that case, the made-up things seem a good deal more important than the real ones. Suppose this black pit of a kingdom of yours is the only world. Well, it strikes me as a pretty poor one. And that's a funny thing, when you come to think of it. We're just babies making up a game, if you're right. But four babies playing a game can make a play-world which licks your real world hollow. That's why I'm going to stand by the play-world. I'm on Aslan's side even if there isn't any Aslan to lead it. I'm going to live as like a Narnian as I can even if there isn't any Narnia. So, thanking you kindly for our supper, if these two gentlemen and the young lady are ready, we're leaving your court at once and setting out in the dark to spend our lives looking for Overland. Not that our lives will be very long, I should think; but that's small loss if the world's as dull a place as you say."

[Era Might]

[quote name='Sternhauser' date='05 March 2010 - 12:25 AM' timestamp='1267766746' post='2066940']The Church, as an institution, is still the largest provider of charity in the entire world. That fruit should at least show you something of the nature of the Church.

What part of the "institution" of the Church are you having difficulty with?

You mustn't let the wolves in sheep's clothing make you shy away from the other sheep, or the abusive hireling drive you away from the Good Shepherd.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]
It is not scandal that drives me away. Just the opposite. It is the institutionalization of good. You mention one of the major problems with what the Church has become. It has become a "provider of charity." It has taken the absolutely free and personal vocation of love to which Christ invited each person, and it has turned that vocation into institutions. Western civilization is built on the premise of institutionalization. It was the Church that gave birth to Western civilization, because it was the Church that institutionalized the Gospel. The Apostles were holy f[i][/i]ools and fishers of men. The Church took this beautiful witness of the Apostolic vocation, and turned it into a religious government. Popes and Bishops become princes of this world. The Church went from a witness to a free vocation of grace offered by Christ, and instead the Church became a sociopolitical institution that attempted to institutionalize the Gospel so as to bring everyone into the Church's sphere of influence. The Apostles and the early Christians gave their lives as non-violent martyrs. In contrast, later Popes called for Christians to kill the infidel. Today, the Church is buried under centuries of institutionalization. The Church of Western civilization can have no real courage, because true courage would threaten the Church's institutions. The fact that the Pope has armed guards exemplifies to me the utter perversion of the Gospel that has taken place in the Church over the centuries. Everything in the Church is institutionalized. The vocation to love is exercised through "charitable institutions" rather than in our own homes. The passing on of the faith is done through schooling institutions where "Christians" are manufactured like machines in a factory. Gone is the free and personal decision of discipleship; the Church has become a cultural institution rather than a prophetic witness to Christ. And in this respect, the Church is like every other religion. The Egyptians had their cultural religion. The Greeks had their cultural religion. The Muslims have their cultural religion. The Hindus have their cultural religion. All of these religions were/are sociocultural institutions, and so is the Church. So how I am I to believe that the Church is any different from any other religion? The Gospel is beautiful and utterly transcendent. But I no longer see the Gospel being witnessed to as it was in the early Church, because the Church has been corrupted through institutionalization. The Church is worried about protecting the Pope's institutional office, and hence he has armed guards. The idea of Christ or St. Peter with armed guards would be laughable if it weren't so blasphemous.

[Ed Normile]

The church is no institution, there are institutions in the church but the church is the collection of souls that make up the communion of saints. We are the church, and yes there are, unfortunately, some of us that do not live up to Christ' example, perhaps God failed you for allowing us to be human, or maybe he is calling you to better the body of the church by your actions.

ed

[Era Might]

[quote name='Ed Normile' date='05 March 2010 - 01:15 AM' timestamp='1267769717' post='2066955']
The church is no institution, there are institutions in the church but the church is the collection of souls that make up the communion of saints. We are the church, and yes there are, unfortunately, some of us that do not live up to Christ' example, perhaps God failed you for allowing us to be human, or maybe he is calling you to better the body of the church by your actions.

ed
[/quote]
Believe me, it is not failing that bothers me. It is the idea that I have to accept failing because the Church does it, or the idea that I have to accept institutionalization because the Church has blessed it.

I cannot be a part of the Church as an institution. I cannot "work within" the ecclesial institution. I just can't, because the cost is too high; I cannot be an accomplice to the institutionalization of the Gospel. The best I can do is basically ignore the Church as an institution, and just worry about living the Gospel. I believe in Apostolic authority and Apostolic succession; but I cannot approve of the institutionalization of this Apostolic authority, because it makes the Church manipulative and legalistic.

[sacredheartandbloodofjesus]

[quote name='Era Might' date='04 March 2010 - 02:02 PM' timestamp='1267729337' post='2066553']
The Greeks also believed in all kinds of wondrous events...and yet those events that the Greeks believed in were false, because the Greek gods were false.


[/quote]


Well let us not forget that the belief in many Gods was proven to be illogical way back before Christ. If your finding the belief in One God and His Church to be illogical then thats a different story.