The Heavens Are Silent

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Era Might' date='17 March 2010 - 09:55 PM' timestamp='1268873740' post='2074903']
Yes! This has been my point the whole time.

I live in a society, and am hopelessly attached to a Church, where institutions replace community.

I live in a society where you can "friend" someone by sending them an electronic message.

I live in a society where if I and another person looked up from our cell phones and said "Hello" to each other on the train, we would both drop dead of fear.

I live in a society where there is no community. There are only schools, hospitals, prisons, parishes, etc. In other words, there are institutions.

You are absolutely right that I am missing community. I and pretty much everyone else in this society.

What am I to do with the realization that there is no such thing as community in modern society? I don't know what I am to do. I guess that's what I'm trying to figure out.
[/quote]

A community is the people you surround yourself with and care for. My community is the two little old ladies who live behind me, the family across the street whose kids grew up with mine, and other neighbors on my block. My community is the drug dealer who lives next to me and all her ornery children. My community are the people in my family, that I know at church, at the grocery store, and thru my town. My community is phatmass. My community are the people I choose to worry about, pray for, fight with and love. Some of us are bonded by blood, by friendship, or the simple hello in passing every day out on the street- but the ARE my community because I choose to make it so.

[Era Might]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='17 March 2010 - 09:12 PM' timestamp='1268874773' post='2074912']
A community is the people you surround yourself with and care for. My community is the two little old ladies who live behind me, the family across the street whose kids grew up with mine, and other neighbors on my block. My commnunity is the drug dealer who lives next to me and all her ornery children. My community are the people in my family, that I know at church, at the grocery store, and thru my town. My community is phatmass. My community are the people I choose to worry about, pray for, fight with and love. Some of us are bonded by blood, by friendship, or the simple hello in passing every day out on the street- but the ARE my community because I choose to make it so.
[/quote]
Yes, there are heroic people (like Dorothy Day, and it appears like yourself) who have managed to build some kind of community in modern society. It's a beautiful thing to have community. That is why it is so maddening to live in a society and a Church where institutions replace community.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Era Might' date='17 March 2010 - 10:16 PM' timestamp='1268874993' post='2074913']
Yes, there are heroic people (like Dorothy Day, and it appears like yourself) who have managed to build some kind of community in modern society. It's a beautiful thing to have community. That is why it is so maddening to live in a society and a Church where institutions replace community.
[/quote]
It has NOTHING to do with heroism. You take where ever you live and build relationships with those around you. You cultivate them like flowers
Its a choice on how you want to live your life Era, where ever you live and whatever you choose to do. It helps to decide to stay in one place for awhile, to make up your mind that this is your spot on this planet and decide to make it a better place.
Insitutions are simply organized ways of doing things that cannot be done by one person alone, filled with people with whom you can build relationships. I can't clothe all the needy people in my town in winter-time, but as a part of church I can collect gloves and scarves and coats to help quite a few of them.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Era Might' date='17 March 2010 - 08:55 PM' timestamp='1268873740' post='2074903']
Yes! This has been my point the whole time.

I live in a society, and am hopelessly attached to a Church, where institutions replace community.

I live in a society where you can "friend" someone by sending them an electronic message.

I live in a society where if I and another person looked up from our cell phones and said "Hello" to each other on the train, we would both drop dead of fear.

I live in a society where there is no community. There are only schools, hospitals, prisons, parishes, etc. In other words, there are institutions.

You are absolutely right that I am missing community. I and pretty much everyone else in this society. We just don't realize it because we think institutions are community.

What am I to do with the realization that there is hardly any such thing as community in modern society? I don't know what I am to do. I guess that's what I'm trying to figure out.
[/quote]

this is what you do

1. Call a friend and say "Hey Bob, let's grab a coffee"
2. Go and hang out drink coffee talk about funny and pointless stuff
3. Repeat with Bob or someone else the next day
4. Repeat again

This is what not to do

1. spend hours in a chat room
2. spend hours on a phorum inviting people to a chat room
3. text people who haven't been to the phorum or the chat room

[jkaands]

[quote name='Era Might' date='17 March 2010 - 06:55 PM' timestamp='1268873740' post='2074903']
Yes! This has been my point the whole time.

I live in a society, and am hopelessly attached to a Church, where institutions replace community.

I live in a society where you can "friend" someone by sending them an electronic message.

I live in a society where if I and another person looked up from our cell phones and said "Hello" to each other on the train, we would both drop dead of fear.

I live in a society where there is no community. There are only schools, hospitals, prisons, parishes, etc. In other words, there are institutions.

You are absolutely right that I am missing community. I and pretty much everyone else in this society. We just don't realize it because we think institutions are community.

What am I to do with the realization that there is hardly any such thing as community in modern society? I don't know what I am to do. I guess that's what I'm trying to figure out.
[/quote]

Achieving community is difficult in this country but it can be done--but not necessarily by or within institutions. I don't think that the Catholic Church is building it very well right now, according to what I read on the forums. No coffee & doughnuts, at least not many , no 'chat, greeters, groups for new members, etc. Unitarian-Universalits and Quakers are virtually ONLY about community--this, and social justice, are what they are all about. Committees, potlucks, bookgroups, justice--on and on. One way or another, if you participate in these you will be part of a close-knit community whether you want to or not! It is clear from my meeting some of these folks that they are all close to each other. Many other Protestant churches work intensely on building community. My daughter's neighborhood has it-many work part-time, have alternative sorts of households, one gay partners with adopted child, one Down's child, one inter-racial adoption--have get-togethers frequentm, send their kids to the neighborhood school., not to a bunch of different private schools. However, for myself, I have never lived in a neighborhood who had it--too disparate socially, economically. No institution has it automatically--it needs to be worked at.

[Era Might]

[quote name='jkaands' date='17 March 2010 - 11:18 PM' timestamp='1268882323' post='2074958']
Achieving community is difficult in this country but it can be done--but not necessarily by or within institutions.
[/quote]
Yes, I agree. There are various people who have experimented with different models of community (not just in their personal lives). Dorothy Day is one of the more prominent people who did so (she co-founded the Catholic Worker).

Dorothy Day is actually an interesting case, because she was staunchly Catholic. Yet the Catholic Worker communities were also very much non-institutional.

[Nunsense]

Era - is your issue that there are no miracles today (the heavens are silent) or that the Church is an institution and not a community?

For the second, the Church isn't really meant to be a community is it? It may have been in the early days, but I don't think Christ set out to establish a community, so much as an organization that would preach the good news about salvation. I, for one, don't want my Church to be too much of a community because I go there to worship, not to socialize. But I do understand that man is a social animal, so many people like too congregate and make friends at church. I don't see why you can't do this as well, if that is what you want. I chose the Latin Mass so I could focus on the sacrifice, not the socializing, but the Church is so wonderful, she provides for both in the OF and the EF.

As for the first, the heavens are silent... not so, but they aren't screaming either. To hear them, one must be very quiet oneself. Sure, we would all like to touch the wounds like Thomas, but Jesus did tell him that more blessed were those who could believe NOT having seen. It is harder, but it is what He says is blessed. I often hear the heavens but only when I am very very very quiet inside.

All I can suggest is to take this pain to Jesus in prayer and to ask Him to answer your questions in your heart. Sometimes He is talking to us but we aren't listening. It might not be that you need to see someone raised from the dead, or a demon exorcised, but you might need to feel that 'personal' touch in your heart from Him. He can and will do this, but not if you are screaming at him, demanding it. I am keeping you in my thoughts and prayers because in you, I see myself at many times during my life.

[Era Might]

[quote name='nunsense' date='18 March 2010 - 07:50 AM' timestamp='1268913059' post='2075059']
Era - is your issue that there are no miracles today (the heavens are silent) or that the Church is an institution and not a community?[/quote]
Both. They are interrelated.

My issue is not really that "there are no miracles today" (people claim miracles today). My point about miracles is just that miracles are claims, not facts. Even non-Christians claim miracles.

[quote]For the second, the Church isn't really meant to be a community is it?[/quote]
The Church is the Body of Christ and the "household of God" (1Timothy 3:15). How can a family living in the same household not be a community?

[quote]It may have been in the early days, but I don't think Christ set out to establish a community, so much as an organization that would preach the good news about salvation.[/quote]
This is precisely what I disagree with, the idea that the Church is some kind of "organization." The Church is a family of witnesses to Christ. To turn the Church into an organization is to cheapen it to something like a corporate business. The Church is not here to maintain a corporation, she is here to witness to someone (i.e., to Christ).

[quote]I, for one, don't want my Church to be too much of a community because I go there to worship, not to socialize. But I do understand that man is a social animal, so many people like too congregate and make friends at church. I don't see why you can't do this as well, if that is what you want. I chose the Latin Mass so I could focus on the sacrifice, not the socializing, but the Church is so wonderful, she provides for both in the OF and the EF.[/quote]
I'm not looking for "socializing" either. What I'm talking about is community, not "socializing." I'm talking about family. I think that can only take place outside of the parish, not within it. I am skeptical of the idea of the parish, because the parish becomes just another institution that tries to hold Christians together. I think that to truly build community, you have to go outside of the parish and into your own homes.

I was talking to a Protestant a few months ago and she was telling me how she changed churches because her old church was too expensive. I was a bit taken aback. How can church be expensive? She said that the "activities" there were too expensive for her, so she went to a new church with less expensive activities. She has lots of friends and activities at her new church. But that is not the kind of community I'm talking about (and I find that kind of community off-putting in the context of a church).

Here is the kind of community I am talking about:

[quote]And fear came upon every soul; and many wonders and signs were done through the apostles. And all who believed were together and had all things in common; and they sold their possessions and goods and distributed them to all, as any had need. And day by day, attending the temple together and breaking bread in their homes, they partook of food with glad and generous hearts, praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to their number day by day those who were being saved.

--Acts 2:43-47[/quote]

[Socrates]

[quote name='Era Might' date='17 March 2010 - 04:05 PM' timestamp='1268856342' post='2074775']
Yes, that is part of the problem, but I would say that it is only a symptom of the real problem.

I will pose a question as an attempt on my part to get at the root of the problem: Would St. Paul be welcome today at your parish? I think that St. Paul would have no real place in the institutionalized Church. To volunteer at your parish, he would probably be required to undergo a criminal history check. The institution would see that he has been guilty of killing Christians in the past, so he would be excluded from volunteering in the various institutional programs. As far as becoming a Bishop, you can forget about that. St. Paul was sort of the Osama Bin Laden of his day. If Osama Bin Laden converted to Christianity, would he be welcome at your parish? Would he even be considered for ordination as a Bishop?[/quote]
Too many "what ifs" - this is comparing very different eras.
"Background checks" are an unfortunate part of modern life (not to open up a whole huge debate here), and are hardly limited to Church activities. Personally, I'd rather deal with background checks, than have a kiddie-raper slip into the CCD program.
Secondly, there was a very different legal situation: Saul's persecution of Christians was sanctioned by the Jewish authorities - essentially Christians were considered criminals at the time, and Saul was a cop. It was more equivalent to changing sides in a war. Paul still had to prove his sincere conversion before being formally accepted. The Church does still accept and welcome people who converted from being enemies of the Church. Dr. Bernard Nathanson comes to mind, who was formerly an abortionist and atheist, but is now a Catholic pro-life activist.

[quote]What am I trying to get at with this analogy? My point is that institutions are "respectable." They have to maintain their position in society (or else the institution is threatened). That is why, for example, when Bishops apologize for sexual abuse, the apology is so hollow. Who cares about an institution's apology? A real Christian witness would be sackcloth and ashes. Instead, we get press statements from diocesan spokesmen. Catholics talk about excommunicating pro-abortion politicians. But the Church is so institutionalized that such an excommunication is hollow. It's a way for the institution to avoid "scandal." But there is no sense of the Church as a supernatural family that is casting out a brother. The Bishop is likely a stranger to the politician he would be excommunicating. The politician is probably a stranger to his parish. The institution binds everyone together, and such an institutional relationship is pathetic.

"Scandal." We hear a lot about priestly "scandals." But what's the response going to be to those scandals? The Church will make a few institutional moves, defrock a few priests, and then the institution can regain its "respectability." Maybe the Pope will write a lofty letter about how sexual abuse is a sin (there may even be a few harsh words in the letter...but not too harsh, because institutions are cool calm collected and in control of the situation). The institution provides a mirage that it is weathering a storm, but that it will be fine eventually. Like any good institution, it has to do damage control, it has to assure people that despite bumps in the road, the institution will survive. But the Church cannot see that it is precisely its institutionalization that has made it so weak and cowardly.[/quote]
In past ages, the offending priests might have been hanged, or even burned for their crimes, but somehow I don't think that option would fly with you.
I'm not really convinced that less structure (or "institutionalization") in the Church would necessarily led to harsher punishments for sexually abusive priests.

[quote]Let me use prison as an example. I am all for finding alternatives to the prison system in the United States. I believe that our prison system is inherently flawed. But I do not want to see the Church getting involved in prison reform. Why? It’s not because I think prison reform is unnecessary; rather, it is because the Church’s mission is something different. When the Church gets involved in social issues, then one of three things happens: either the Church becomes another institution trying to preserve the status quo, or else the Church shows itself incapable of doing what needs to be done. So, for example, the Church might support this or that prison reform, but the Church doesn’t have the courage to call for the abolition of the prison system as it exists. That is too radical a proposal to be made by a "respectable" institution. And when Priests do get involved in radical solutions to social problems, they thereby cease to act as signs of Sacramental unity, and instead they become divisive politicians and social workers.[/quote]
Yeah, prisons smell of elderberries.

That's why I'm a fan of the good old-fashioned hangman's noose. Electric chairs are cool too.



More to the point . . .
How have parishes prevented you from forming friendships and reaching out to your neighbors, or doing things to get personally involved with people either within or without your parish?

How have Catholic charitable organizations prevented you from performing any acts of personal charity?

If you think there's a lack of community or personal charity, do something positive about it. I can guarantee you, endlessly railing against Church "institutions" will accomplish absolutely zip.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Socrates' date='18 March 2010 - 01:26 PM' timestamp='1268933190' post='2075187']More to the point . . .
How have parishes prevented you from forming friendships and reaching out to your neighbors, or doing things to get personally involved with people either within or without your parish?

How have Catholic charitable organizations prevented you from performing any acts of personal charity?

If you think there's a lack of community or personal charity, do something positive about it. I can guarantee you, endlessly railing against Church "institutions" will accomplish absolutely zip.
[/quote]
As I said before, this thread is not about me. There are any number of things that I can do in my personal life. But that's not what this thread is about. This thread is about the problem of institutionalization in society and in the Church.

I'm not "railing" against anything. I'm discussing the nature of institutions and their affect on society and on the Church.

It is certainly possible to build a counter-culture within an institutionalized society. Possible, though not easy. But nevertheless, if people never point out what's wrong with society (and with the Church), then we just continue to be blind to what's happening around us.

If I wanted to "rail" against the Church, I would just ignore it. The only reason why I discuss these matters is because I actually care about the Church, and am appalled and saddened at what it has become over the centuries.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Era Might' date='18 March 2010 - 10:22 AM' timestamp='1268922140' post='2075093']
Both. They are interrelated.

My issue is not really that "there are no miracles today" (people claim miracles today). My point about miracles is just that miracles are claims, not facts. Even non-Christians claim miracles.
[/quote]
"An evil and adulterous generation seeks a sign" ~ Matthew 12:39

[cmotherofpirl]

Fatima

Lourdes

Kibeho

Rwanda

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/features/index.cfm?recnum=50007&repos=4&subrepos=1&searchid=597220

http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=3331&repos=4&subrepos=2&searchid=597220

[Era Might]

I'm not seeking a sign. My point was simply that claims to miracles are not uniquely Catholic or Christian. If there is a God, then which claims to miracles are legitimate? Only the Catholic ones? Only the Christian ones?

[cmotherofpirl]

Cannot you say that all miracles show the power and mercy of God?

[Era Might]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='18 March 2010 - 03:26 PM' timestamp='1268940414' post='2075256']
Cannot you say that all miracles show the power and mercy of God?
[/quote]
Well, part of the purpose of miracles as I understand them is to prove something. So, for example, the Resurrection is the "proof" that Christ was who he said he was.

The assumption among Catholics is that miracles (and particularly apparitions) are "proof" of Catholicism's claims. But the Eastern Orthodox claim miracles as well. If miracles are "proof" of legitimacy, then why would God do miracles for the Eastern Orthodox? And if miracles are proof, then would God do miracles among non-Christians when those miracles are going to be seen as "proof" of their own religions?

And then there are other complicating factors. For example, Mary supposedly told St. Bernadette, "I am the Immaculate Conception." Yet Eastern Catholics (at least some of them) will argue that the Immaculate Conception is foreign to the East. It seems very curious to me that all these apparitions just *happen* to be in Western language and Western concepts. What of the East? Does God speak one way to the West, and another way to the East?

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Era Might' date='18 March 2010 - 04:34 PM' timestamp='1268940849' post='2075264']
Well, part of the purpose of miracles as I understand them is to prove something. So, for example, the Resurrection is the "proof" that Christ was who he said he was.

The assumption among Catholics is that miracles (and particularly apparitions) are "proof" of Catholicism's claims. But the Eastern Orthodox claim miracles as well. If miracles are "proof" of legitimacy, then why would God do miracles for the Eastern Orthodox? And if miracles are proof, then would God do miracles among non-Christians when those miracles are going to be seen as "proof" of their own religions?

And then there are other complicating factors. For example, Mary supposedly told St. Bernadette, "I am the Immaculate Conception." Yet Eastern Catholics (at least some of them) will argue that the Immaculate Conception is foreign to the East. It seems very curious to me that all these apparitions just *happen* to be in Western language and Western concepts. What of the East? Does God speak one way in the West, and one way in the East?
[/quote]
I see miracles as proof against the assertion that God is on vacation and not paying attention. And if God speaks to people with messages for us,it would do little not to use peoples current framework to get the message across i.e.he wouldn't speak in chinese to an irishman, or western theology to an eastern catholic - there has to be some frame of reference.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Era Might' date='18 March 2010 - 01:34 PM' timestamp='1268940849' post='2075264']
Well, part of the purpose of miracles as I understand them is to prove something. So, for example, the Resurrection is the "proof" that Christ was who he said he was.

The assumption among Catholics is that miracles (and particularly apparitions) are "proof" of Catholicism's claims. But the Eastern Orthodox claim miracles as well. If miracles are "proof" of legitimacy, then why would God do miracles for the Eastern Orthodox? And if miracles are proof, then would God do miracles among non-Christians when those miracles are going to be seen as "proof" of their own religions?

And then there are other complicating factors. For example, Mary supposedly told St. Bernadette, "I am the Immaculate Conception." Yet Eastern Catholics (at least some of them) will argue that the Immaculate Conception is foreign to the East. It seems very curious to me that all these apparitions just *happen* to be in Western language and Western concepts. What of the East? Does God speak one way to the West, and another way to the East?
[/quote]

don't take this as me posting some sort of proof-text without commentary. I have no idea if this helps you or furthers your concern. I just thought this passage may somehow be relevant:

Mark 9:37-38 "John answered him, saying: Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, who followeth not us, and we forbade him. But Jesus said: Do not forbid him. For there is no man that doth a miracle in my name, and can soon speak ill of me."

[Nunsense]

Era - the type of community you talk about is rare or non-existant I guess (I am not sure, not having lived everywhere, just lots of places) but maybe that is because there are no apostles any more to lead and guide us. That doesn't mean that there aren't saints or saintly people, including Bishops who could be doing this in out of the way places, but in Boston? No, I don't think so. A lot of your problem might be that you are living in a very industrialized nation where community is not as highly valued as prestige and money and power. If you lived in some tiny Catholic country where the faith was strong, perhaps you might find this, I don't know.

But that doesn't mean that you can't start to become one of those people who is an example to others of what that type of community should be. Perhaps you need to be a leader and not be looking for someone or somewhere that is already established. St Francis hated what he saw in the Church too, and God told him to rebuild it. He got it wrong at first and rebuilt San Damino, but later his efforts turned out to be the rebuilding of the Church itself. If you have a vision of what the Church should be, then work towards that, and pray to the Holy Spirit to guide you along the way. Who knows, the miracles may come about through your efforts at trying to please God? It only takes one person to start (as you pointed out the Catholic Workers).



I think your sensitivity and concern are wonderful. Now you need to channel these in a productive way with God's help.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Era Might' date='18 March 2010 - 01:38 PM' timestamp='1268933929' post='2075191']
This thread is about the problem of institutionalization in society and in the Church.
[/quote]

I don't see a problem, as long as people aren't considered raw material.

[SaintOfVirtue]

(I have not read every post, so this may have nothing to do with the immediate discussion above)

I once heard a Redemptorist priest give a talk, and while I cannot remember everything he said or how he said it I will do my best to recreate it.

[quote]"...How long will it take for the devil to convince you to leave the church? How much will he show you before you leave? Some people he only had to show the removal of the alter rail, others the guitar player in choir and the more modern music. For some it was the seemingly increasing lack of a back bone on the part of the Church as far as defending the faith against modern culture. How long will it be for you? How much will you suffer before you leave? In other countries where safety in the house and on the streets is nigh on non-existent, the devil uses physical persecution to accomplish these ends.[here he cited instances of huge deterioration of various congregations in countries where Catholicism had effectively been outlawed] In America and the other civilized countries he uses different means, which are by far, crueler. In these countries he attacks the mind, and the heart of the person. He presents them ideas, which they struggle to overcome and once he finds an idea that seems to work he will persist. How long will it take, or how much will he show you before you leave? Remember Judas has been with the Church since the beginning, from its very inception the church's hierarchy was flawed. but the real question remains: how many Judas' will it take to make you stop believing the Church and start believing a lie?[/quote]

"We have one advantage: we know who wins, we know the last page of the book." -Fr. John Corapi

I also highly recommend C.S. Lewis' Mere Christianity and the Problem with Pain as well as the Screwtape Letters.