God Is A He, And Can Never Be Called A "she"

[Veridicus]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='07 March 2010 - 05:35 PM' timestamp='1268004905' post='2068349']
Or the personal experiences many women have when it comes to sexism and abuse by men who exercise power over them simply because of their sex. A general misunderstanding of Catholic teaching also contributes.
[/quote]

As to the former I would never seek to deprive the genuine experiences of those who have been victimized by misogynistic men. And as to the latter, in my experience it is often misandric 'feminazis' who do the most damage in by intentionally misrepresenting Catholic social teaching to the impressionable. If I had a nickel for every nun who's openly spoken about how women should be ordained priests, etc. etc. etc.

We still have a long way to grow on many fronts I believe.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Veridicus' date='07 March 2010 - 06:40 PM' timestamp='1268005229' post='2068356']
As to the former I would never seek to deprive the genuine experiences of those who have been victimized by misogynistic men. And as to the latter, in my experience it is often misandric 'feminazis' who do the most damage in by intentionally misrepresenting Catholic social teaching to the impressionable. If I had a nickel for every nun who's openly spoken about how women should be ordained priests, etc. etc. etc.

We still have a long way to grow on many fronts I believe.
[/quote]

Yes, just as many men misunderstand Catholic teaching and use it as an excuse to treat their girlfriends or wives as inferior.

[Apotheoun]

Men and women have equal dignity before God, because both sexes participate in the image of God and in the divine likeness. Nevertheless, men and women have different roles within the natural and supernatural realms and these differences are intended by God for the good of humanity as a whole.

[Apotheoun]

According to revelation, woman came from man, just as the Church comes from Christ, and man comes from woman, just as Christ came from the Theotokos; and in this sacred mystery, God - from the very beginning - signified the complementarity and reciprocity that should exist between men and women, who find their fulfillment in communion with each other, just as the persons of the Holy Trinity experience the fullness of their divine being in communion.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='07 March 2010 - 06:58 PM' timestamp='1268006315' post='2068371']
Men and women have equal dignity before God, because both sexes participate in the image of God and in the divine likeness. Nevertheless, men and women have different roles within the natural and supernatural realms and these differences are intended by God for the good of humanity as a whole.
[/quote]


What exactly are these different roles?

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='07 March 2010 - 06:44 PM' timestamp='1268005496' post='2068360']
Yes, just as many men misunderstand Catholic teaching and use it as an excuse to treat their girlfriends or wives as inferior.
[/quote]

It is not about inferiority and superiority, it is about distinct roles within the same feminine Creation. Masculinity (men / husbands) is a sign of the Creator and Christ, while femininity (women / wives) is a sign of the Creation and Church. The difference in signs - the roles - [b]does not mean a difference in the dignity and divine image common to us all[/b] in Creation. [i]We are all the feminine (passive, submissive, receiving) Creation[/i] in relation to the [i]masculine Creator[/i]. We Catholics are all the Bride of Christ.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Ziggamafu

[Socrates]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='07 March 2010 - 06:44 PM' timestamp='1268005496' post='2068360']
Yes, just as many men misunderstand Catholic teaching and use it as an excuse to treat their girlfriends or wives as inferior.
[/quote]
I doubt Catholic teaching (misunderstood or otherwise) has anything to do with abuse of wives or girlfriends.
I think abuse actually tends to be higher among people who aren't very religious.

How many abusive men do you actually know that base their abuse on the Fatherhood of God or other Catholic teaching?
Seriously.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' date='07 March 2010 - 05:04 PM' timestamp='1268006666' post='2068376']
What exactly are these different roles?
[/quote]
Fatherhood and motherhood in both the natural and supernatural orders. A man cannot become a mother, although he can exemplify certain motherly characteristics; and the same is true of a woman, she cannot become a father, but she can exhibit certain fatherly qualities, but neither fatherhood nor motherhood are reducible to activities.

No man could become the Theotokos, from whom Christ assumed human nature, nor can a woman become a priest; for these roles, which are ontological in nature, are - by God's will - given to human beings according to their sex.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Apotheoun

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Socrates' date='07 March 2010 - 07:06 PM' timestamp='1268006777' post='2068381']
I doubt Catholic teaching (misunderstood or otherwise) has anything to do with abuse of wives or girlfriends.
I think abuse actually tends to be higher among people who aren't very religious.

How many abusive men do you actually know that base their abuse on the Fatherhood of God or other Catholic teaching?
Seriously.
[/quote]

I said treat as inferior, not abuse. I have never seen this in person because I know few Catholics, but I have seen it on certain Catholic forums (not here). I should have phrased it as the mentality some men have towards women based on a misunderstanding of Catholic teaching. Whether that misunderstanding is by accident or on purpose, I do not know.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='07 March 2010 - 07:05 PM' timestamp='1268006714' post='2068379']
It is not about inferiority and superiority, it is about distinct roles within the same feminine Creation. Masculinity (men / husbands) is a sign of the Creator and Christ, while femininity (women / wives) is a sign of the Creation and Church. The difference in signs - the roles - [b]does not mean a difference in the dignity and divine image common to us all[/b] in Creation. [i]We are all the feminine (passive, submissive, receiving) Creation[/i] in relation to the [i]masculine Creator[/i]. We Catholics are all the Bride of Christ.
[/quote]

Yes, I know.

[Apotheoun]

The Theotokos is the bridge between the created and the uncreated, and the entire cosmos stands in awe of her.

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='07 March 2010 - 07:20 PM' timestamp='1268007604' post='2068391']
The Theotokos is the bridge between the created and the uncreated, and the entire cosmos stands in awe of her.
[/quote]

+1.

...and that awe is not minimized by insisting on her femininity or that she is an icon of the Church, rather than Christ.

Feminine-Creation's created masculinity is a sign of the true masculinity that belongs to God alone. Creation is - chiefly speaking - passive, submissive, and receptive while God is - chiefly speaking - the opposite. I argue in this thread that this is the most likely reason that He created man and woman as He did, gave them the roles ordered by Him, and revealed Himself as masculine in contrast to revealing His People as feminine. I think for reasons I've restated several times that this is the purpose of the sexes and their respective roles, to be signs of the Creator's relationship with Creation and of Christ's relationship with the Church.

Male sexuality, role, and order in Creation: sign of Creator / Christ (properly active, invasive, giving)

Female sexuality, role, and order in Creation: sign of Creation / Church (properly passive, submissive, receiving)

[HisChildForever]

Is a woman expected to be "properly passive, submissive, receiving" outside of marriage too?

[Apotheoun]

Just as the Church is feminine and thus receptive in relation to God, so too the human soul (of both men and women) is feminine and thus receptive in relation to God.

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='07 March 2010 - 08:38 PM' timestamp='1268012285' post='2068441']
Is a woman expected to be "properly passive, submissive, receiving" outside of marriage too?
[/quote]

Physically, she cannot help but be so. It is her anatomy to be passive, submissive, and receiving; and she cannot have a child but by surrendering to this aspect of her nature.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='07 March 2010 - 09:44 PM' timestamp='1268016287' post='2068492']
Physically, she cannot help but be so. It is her anatomy to be passive, submissive, and receiving; and she cannot have a child but by surrendering to this aspect of her nature.
[/quote]

I am not speaking in terms of physicality.

But since you are, it is also in her anatomy to be giving - when she gives birth, for instance.

[BarbTherese]

quote name='Veridicus'
[quote]I am of the opinion that a great deal of discontent and doctrinal confusion occurred within the Church because of the tendency of some during the sexual/feminist revolution to dismiss utterly those things in tradition which in any way had a patriarchal tone. To be sure there are plenty of examples in the Christian West where women were on the receiving end of misogyny.[/quote]

Well said.
[quote]
Like with the many developments in the Church after V2, I think we have a lot of work to do to find the appropriate balance.[/quote]
Very well said and I think and pray that perhaps Pope Benedict will take as a fair way along this path.

[quote]It is almost impossible for most women to comprehend how submission could be anything other than misogyny or an attempt to 'keep the woman down'. This does a great disservice to the Pauline language which describes the Church as bride to Christ her husband. It is not surprising there is such anticlerical/antiestablishment discontent in some folds of Catholics given the excessive license in (re)defining gender in a post-patriarchal West.[/quote]
Female paranoia?

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='08 March 2010 - 10:29 AM' timestamp='1268006395' post='2068373']
According to revelation, woman came from man, just as the Church comes from Christ, and man comes from woman, just as Christ came from the Theotokos; and in this sacred mystery, God - from the very beginning - signified the complementarity and reciprocity that should exist between men and women, who find their fulfillment in communion with each other,[u][i] just as the persons of the Holy Trinity experience the fullness of their divine being in communion.[/i][/u]
[/quote]

Excellent point!

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' date='07 March 2010 - 10:30 PM' timestamp='1268019004' post='2068565']
Female paranoia?
[/quote]

What on earth?

[Hassan]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='07 March 2010 - 09:44 PM' timestamp='1268016287' post='2068492']
Physically, she cannot help but be so. It is her anatomy to be passive, submissive, and receiving; and she cannot have a child but by surrendering to this aspect of her nature.
[/quote]

What? How does this follow?