Cloisters Outreach Caveat Emptor

[Saint Therese]

Well, charity isn't about being "nice", necessarily. I wonder how charitable it would be to not make people aware that something that at leas [i]seems[/i] to be genuine isn't, and the result being that possibly many genuine vocations are sidetracked?

[HisChild]

[quote name='CherieMadame' date='07 March 2010 - 08:31 AM' timestamp='1267975869' post='2068023']
Of course no one wants to be labeled as "uncharitable," and I agree, that that is the reason many of these things are proliferated.

Just from looking at the website, the entire establishment looks like a canonical nightmare. To those who say it's uncharitable, I say it's not uncharitable to look at things with God-given reason and prudence. When people's faith and vocations are in danger, it is a charity in and of itself to look at these things critically.
[/quote]


[quote name='Saint Therese' date='07 March 2010 - 08:36 AM' timestamp='1267976170' post='2068024']
Well, charity isn't about being "nice", necessarily. I wonder how charitable it would be to not make people aware that something that at leas [i]seems[/i] to be genuine isn't, and the result being that possibly many genuine vocations are sidetracked?
[/quote]


Exactly, ST. I don't like how some people misuse being 'charitable'. Because some disguise it as nothing more than not saying anything that can be construed as negative. Not so. In Scripture we read in MT 18:15-17 - “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’[b] 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

It is indeed charity to offer correction if it could potentially harm the body of Christ.

No one, I think, is of the mind that these people cannot gather online for their spiritual advancement and possible holiness. But to state the Church is supporting the endeavor? Perhaps not such a good idea.

[Cherie]

[quote name='Saint Therese' date='07 March 2010 - 11:36 AM' timestamp='1267976170' post='2068024']
Well, charity isn't about being "nice", necessarily. I wonder how charitable it would be to not make people aware that something that at leas [i]seems[/i] to be genuine isn't, and the result being that possibly many genuine vocations are sidetracked?
[/quote]

Exactly!

[Indwelling Trinity]

I cannot comment on the veracity of all that has been said... but only caution that there are two sides to every story and sometimes what may look to be an impartial judgment in reality may not be.

Having had experience with both parties in the past, especially on other sites... I can say that there may be agenda's on both sides. especially when there is bad blood between the two even though it may never be openly admitted

I do agree with other who have posted that the most prudent thing to do is to ask questions and get verifiable answers before buying so to say. This is just common sense.

I know first hand that wading through the red tape involved in starting a community is immense and oft times very beauacratical in nature. It is one thing to to question veracity of another... it is another thing to appoint oneself as a veritable vigilante patrol over something that is not even one's concern.

The process of starting a community is neither easy, painless, or quick and I will tell you Satan will dogg it very step of the way both by people within and outside of the church.

It must be remembered that potential founders or foundresses are for the most part doing it for the first time and so we do make mistakes like everyone else....

I have found that the best way to go is by obedience even though there is latitude in the beginnings of a private association of the faithful. I rather be up front with the Bishop or Vicar or Father provincial etc.. than to drop a surprise on them down the road. I also choose to put a disclaimer so to say so that others will know where the proposed community stands. This is just caution on my part both for myself and those who may be interested in becoming a part of this endeavor. It is my responsibility as best as I can to see that others wishing to come are not burnt in the process. Especially when many of then have already been burnt by already established communities for whatever reasons. This is only charity and justice.


In the end... the founding of a community is God's work... "If the Lord does not build a house in vain do the builders labor".... on the other hand of the equation..... "Judge not lest ye too be judged".... and if one does not know the whole picture one risks judging too harshly and may in fact be an instrument; albeit unwittingly, in putting obstacles in the way of what may actually be the work of God in progress even with all its false starts in learning how to wade through the process.


This is not an apologetic for either side... but maybe more humility and charity and less arrogance would best be in order before coming to a final judgment on others.

I react strongly because this topic is not new and in the past has generated more heat than light. Maybe it does not belong on vocation station but on a debate table somewhere else.

Those who are discerning... ask questions openly and look for truthful answers, you deserve that.... Those not discerning i would suggest not interfering in order to prove ones own ascendancy or political correctness, or validate ones own legitimacy over others by demanding from others what you have no right too.

My own Orders roots had no identifiable founder... they were penitents who lived in the desert, adopted a common dress and life style and only after almost twenty years went to the Patriarch for formal approval and yet they are one of the largest order on the church today.

If the Holy spirit is at work you will tell by its fruits... if the fruit are goodness,peace, charity, humility,truth, and love, you can be pretty sure God's hand is there somewhere... if it only makes for confusion, distrust, and dissension... well it make me wonder where that spirit is coming from.



Indwelling Trinity

[Saint Therese]

I think this is an appropriate forum for this topic, since the subject has posted extensively here about vocations in the past.

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='nunsense' date='07 March 2010 - 05:58 AM' timestamp='1267959480' post='2067965']
Gemma is a wonderful person and I love her very much but I have been worried for a long time about the whole Cloisterite project simply because it can distract people who might have real vocations from looking into this while they wait for her communities (plural) to take off. In all charity, I wish her well, but I do believe that she needs a disclaimer on her site to the effect that all of her communities are still in the ideas stage and not one of them is ready for vocations yet. If I am wrong, I am happy to be corrected, but it sounds like Sr Laurel did the research.
[/quote]


I, too, have some concerns as well about the Cloisterite Foundation. I don't mean to dogpile and say stuff that has already been said, but it bothers me a little that all these new charisms are emerging when already established communities are dwindling in numbers. I think I would be less wary of the foundations if they started with more than just a group of people who had no experience in religious life. If you read the stories of founders and foundresses from the past, they had to deal with a great deal of negativity and went through many years of formation in other orders before even considering formation on their own. It also makes me wonder if it's possible that many are using this as a way to enter religious life even though they are not prepared for it or they have illnesses that preclude them from living life to the fullest. I wish Gemma well, but I am very cautious about this sort of thing.

[Hroswitha1943]

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' date='07 March 2010 - 04:15 PM' timestamp='1267996538' post='2068239']
I cannot comment on the veracity of all that has been said... but only caution that there are two sides to every story and sometimes what may look to be an impartial judgment in reality may not be.

Having had experience with both parties in the past, especially on other sites... I can say that there may be agenda's on both sides. especially when there is bad blood between the two even though it may never be openly admitted

I do agree with other who have posted that the most prudent thing to do is to ask questions and get verifiable answers before buying so to say. This is just common sense.

I know first hand that wading through the red tape involved in starting a community is immense and oft times very beauacratical in nature. It is one thing to to question veracity of another... it is another thing to appoint oneself as a veritable vigilante patrol over something that is not even one's concern.

The process of starting a community is neither easy, painless, or quick and I will tell you Satan will dogg it very step of the way both by people within and outside of the church.

It must be remembered that potential founders or foundresses are for the most part doing it for the first time and so we do make mistakes like everyone else....

I have found that the best way to go is by obedience even though there is latitude in the beginnings of a private association of the faithful. I rather be up front with the Bishop or Vicar or Father provincial etc.. than to drop a surprise on them down the road. I also choose to put a disclaimer so to say so that others will know where the proposed community stands. This is just caution on my part both for myself and those who may be interested in becoming a part of this endeavor. It is my responsibility as best as I can to see that others wishing to come are not burnt in the process. Especially when many of then have already been burnt by already established communities for whatever reasons. This is only charity and justice.


In the end... the founding of a community is God's work... "If the Lord does not build a house in vain do the builders labor".... on the other hand of the equation..... "Judge not lest ye too be judged".... and if one does not know the whole picture one risks judging too harshly and may in fact be an instrument; albeit unwittingly, in putting obstacles in the way of what may actually be the work of God in progress even with all its false starts in learning how to wade through the process.


This is not an apologetic for either side... but maybe more humility and charity and less arrogance would best be in order before coming to a final judgment on others.

I react strongly because this topic is not new and in the past has generated more heat than light. Maybe it does not belong on vocation station but on a debate table somewhere else.

Those who are discerning... ask questions openly and look for truthful answers, you deserve that.... Those not discerning i would suggest not interfering in order to prove ones own ascendancy or political correctness, or validate ones own legitimacy over others by demanding from others what you have no right too.

My own Orders roots had no identifiable founder... they were penitents who lived in the desert, adopted a common dress and life style and only after almost twenty years went to the Patriarch for formal approval and yet they are one of the largest order on the church today.

If the Holy spirit is at work you will tell by its fruits... if the fruit are goodness,peace, charity, humility,truth, and love, you can be pretty sure God's hand is there somewhere... if it only makes for confusion, distrust, and dissension... well it make me wonder where that spirit is coming from.



Indwelling Trinity
[/quote]

[Hroswitha1943]

Sister Emmanuel, What could be the agenda of someone who simply points out misinformation? A thing is true or not. In Gemma's ( or Amy's) case, misinformation has been given and people are being misled. I, personally, spoke to the sister that Amy claims is guiding her "projects," and the sister says that she has nothing to do with them and the Diocese does not support them. It's that simple. Nothing you said in your post has any bearing on this simple fact. People have a right to know when they are being misinformed.

[tnavarro61]

[quote name='HisChild' date='07 March 2010 - 11:50 PM' timestamp='1267973429' post='2068007']
Glory to Jesus Christ!

tnavarro, I understood your posts and their intentions. Not to worry. This group(s) of the Cloister Outreach have been a concern of yours, especially since on the groups' website it states that it has ecclesial support, when in fact, as SrLaurel pointed out, it does not.

You're also concerned that some of these groups proclaim they are not in the idea stage but have in fact dressed up in habits and have religious names, which may be misleading since they don't have the support of the bishop as the site proclaims.

nunsense, I also see where he would be confused by your post #8, because in it you clearly state 'since you obviously don't agree with her' (I cannot see how you drew that conclusion). Then, in #13, you're confused by his being saddened? It might be good of you to go back and read the flow of this thread again. You might understand his confusion then. I think his intentions by posting both blog and quotes from the CO site are in congruence.

In Christ,

HC
[/quote]

thank u HisChild for understanding what I sm trying to say! u'r the best! :-)

[tnavarro61]

[quote name='HisChild' date='08 March 2010 - 12:19 AM' timestamp='1267975151' post='2068017']
I think the last time someone posted on the Cloister Outreach with a critical eye, some poster (who I believe was new) came on here lambasting us and how uncharitable we all were for wondering the legitimacy of such a thing when it was such a GOOD thing, and it was no wonder why many left VS etc etc. So for a while no one said anything, in part because of that.

I'm glad it's being brought up again, if for nothing else but to revisit these legitimate concerns.
[/quote]

are you refering to this link:
http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=99908&view=&hl=cloisters&fromsearch=1

or this one:
http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=97412&view=&hl=cloisters&fromsearch=1

or this one?
http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=80569&view=&hl=cloisters&fromsearch=1

I am one of the phatmasser who has been so "critical" of her website. why should she go on without the bishop's permission? she says before that it isn't necessary to obtain bishop's permission first.

and why would she say she is supported by her hermit canonist, when in fact she is not? She always refers to her hermit canonist whenever she answers questions. Of course, this makes her answers appear credible and who could ever argue with a canonist?

we have received replies "don't bother us buy asking questions. if u r not interested in our foundation then go away." but i think people have the right to know since we are one body isn't it.

i agree that charity isn't about being nice. it's about correcting faults, so that we can advance as one.

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='Hroswitha1943' date='07 March 2010 - 06:43 PM' timestamp='1268001835' post='2068297']
Sister Emmanuel, What could be the agenda of someone who simply points out misinformation? A thing is true or not. In Gemma's ( or Amy's) case, misinformation has been given and people are being misled. I, personally, spoke to the sister that Amy claims is guiding her "projects," and the sister says that she has nothing to do with them and the Diocese does not support them. It's that simple. Nothing you said in your post has any bearing on this simple fact. People have a right to know when they are being misinformed.
[/quote]

I agree people have right to know when they are being misinformed at the same time I have been reading two parallel threads on vocation station on this matter. and dog piling on one person who in fact in reality may be overstating things in order just to survive the attacks of some others to me bespeaks of a lack of tenderness.

Maybe in reality although overstating facts, Gemma may be really trying to do the best she can to answer God according to the drummer she hears. And I use The name Gemma in respect to her right for the same anonymity that anyone here on this forum is entitled too. My own anonymity is not important as i have posted my e- mail on this site and use the handle only as an expression of a personal devotion. However my pics and name are real and not faked.

As for vocations I assume they are intelligent younger or older adults who will seek counsel before jumping into anything. Maybe I am assuming too much.

This may seem off topic but if you really think about it, it is not. Speaking to my pastor who was vocational director for my own diocese for over 30 years, about the proposed community which I feel God has put in my heart, ( and until now I have not been told to cease and desist by any church authority, even though everything is not in place as one would like as it takes time, proving and lived reality) Father gave me this very sound counsel... and that was to be careful not to "put out the smoldering wick or crush the bruised reed..." My point being that possible something real true and lasting, could be hidden among all the human weaknesses inherent in Her approach.

Father also told me to allow others to take little steps and learn from their mistakes. What may start out as only a broken or tiny little seed often needs only to be watered, encouraged gently in truth and be given time to grow. Gemma is on her own growth pattern as are we all. I would propose that it would be more effective and loving to gently point out the truth lovingly and allow her to seek her own truth slowly.

I do not condone misrepresentation but have found that folks often say things that are not quite the truth when they feel under attack. It is a psychological fact that this often happens, It is called self preservation. I don't know about anyone else here.. but I AM one of the poorest of the poor and from my ow brokeness also prone to judge. I have to desist from that if I am to give any truth to what i say or do.

Can we not have empathy and put ourselves in Gemma's place on how we would feel and react if all this negative feedback were coming at us?

Truth without compassion is nothing more than cruelty and it is this i object too. I guess i feel i have been forgiven so much so many times by God .... who am i to pronounce my judgments on others... Yes there are time we all must Take a stand and make valid judgments in our lives about things, but let us also understand the human condition... we are all sinners and need of healing.... For those of you who can, please read between the lines. For it is hard for me to articulate this without injuring others.

Tenderly,

Indwelling Trinity (aka: Sister Emmanuel, HSMC-A)

[Hroswitha1943]

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' date='07 March 2010 - 06:48 PM' timestamp='1268005712' post='2068364']
I agree people have right to know when they are being misinformed at the same time I have been reading two parallel threads on vocation station on this matter. and dog piling on one person who in fact in reality may be overstating things in order just to survive the attacks of some others to me bespeaks of a lack of tenderness.

Maybe in reality although overstating facts, Gemma may be really trying to do the best she can to answer God according to the drummer she hears. And I use The name Gemma in respect to her right for the same anonymity that anyone here on this forum is entitled too. My own anonymity is not important as i have posted my e- mail on this site and use the handle only as an expression of a personal devotion. However my pics and name are real and not faked.

As for vocations I assume they are intelligent younger or older adults who will seek counsel before jumping into anything. Maybe I am assuming too much.

This may seem off topic but if you really think about it, it is not. Speaking to my pastor who was vocational director for my own diocese for over 30 years, about the proposed community which I feel God has put in my heart, ( and until now I have not been told to cease and desist by any church authority, even though everything is not in place as one would like as it takes time, proving and lived reality) Father gave me this very sound counsel... and that was to be careful not to "put out the smoldering wick or crush the bruised reed..." My point being that possible something real true and lasting, could be hidden among all the human weaknesses inherent in Her approach.

Father also told me to allow others to take little steps and learn from their mistakes. What may start out as only a broken or tiny little seed often needs only to be watered, encouraged gently in truth and be given time to grow. Gemma is on her own growth pattern as are we all. I would propose that it would be more effective and loving to gently point out the truth lovingly and allow her to seek her own truth slowly.

I do not condone misrepresentation but have found that folks often say things that are not quite the truth when they feel under attack. It is a psychological fact that this often happens, It is called self preservation. I don't know about anyone else here.. but I AM one of the poorest of the poor and from my ow brokeness also prone to judge. I have to desist from that if I am to give any truth to what i say or do.

Can we not have empathy and put ourselves in Gemma's place on how we would feel and react if all this negative feedback were coming at us?

Truth without compassion is nothing more than cruelty and it is this i object too. I guess i feel i have been forgiven so much so many times by God .... who am i to pronounce my judgments on others... Yes there are time we all must Take a stand and make valid judgments in our lives about things, but let us also understand the human condition... we are all sinners and need of healing.... For those of you who can, please read between the lines. For it is hard for me to articulate this without injuring others.

Tenderly,

Indwelling Trinity (aka: Sister Emmanuel, HSMC-A)
[/quote]

[Hroswitha1943]

Whatever may be Gemma's inner intentions, the fact is that she has not been accurate about her undertakings. There is nothing that overrides that fact. It is important that people understand this. One cannot expect "positive feedback" when one has not been honest.

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='Hroswitha1943' date='07 March 2010 - 08:30 PM' timestamp='1268008218' post='2068398']
Whatever may be Gemma's inner intentions, the fact is that she has not been accurate about her undertakings. There is nothing that overrides that fact. It is important that people understand this. One cannot expect "positive feedback" when one has not been honest.
[/quote]

I am not implying positive feedback in the face of dishonesty only compassionate.


Laughing... holds out an olive branch:P

[Hroswitha1943]

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' date='07 March 2010 - 07:35 PM' timestamp='1268008556' post='2068401']
I am not implying positive feedback in the face of dishonesty only compassionate.


Laughing... holds out an olive branch:P
[/quote]
I think we should direct our compassion toward those whose hopes have been exploited and who have been so misled. I only hope that it has not progressed to the point of a monetary scam and become a criminal matter. If Gemma is delusional, that is sad, but it would be irresponsible to let her toy with other people's lives. That is not even close to "compassion." That is hard-hearted irresponsibility.

[Sister_Laurel]

[[
All who are interested in the so-called "Cloister Outreach" should read Sr. Laurels' recent post on her blog on this subject:

http://notesfromstillsong.blogspot.c...proval-or.html

I am glad that someone who is fully knowledgeable like Sr. Laurel has finally blown the whistle on the "Cloister Outreach" project. . . .]]


One clarification. I am not fully knowledgeable. I have run into the founder of Cloisters Outreach on listserves I belong to and I have both agreed and disagreed with as well as challenged her, but I really do not know her, her motivations, etc. Neither have I addressed these, much less judged or impugned them. On the other hand, I do know many of the ins and outs of Canon 603 eremitical life and am sensitive to misuses of the canon which seem to me to demean the vocation itself. I also know that motivations aside, the assertions or claims made in regard to the canonist of the Diocese of Charlotte and the Bishop as well were patently untrue. They were not simply exaggerations. If Cloister Outreach is to do good or is of God, it cannot be founded on or perpetuated by means of untruths; thus if the person in question wants to build on truth I think she retains the chance to do that.

One reason for clarifying the situation was concern that the abuses and misunderstandings of Canon 603 which were being fostered could in fact be the result of a particular canonist's own professional ineptness. (The question which recurred between several of us was, "How CAN she be supporting this, or supervising that, or turning a blind eye to the other thing? How can she be allowing her Bishop to accept these as edifying to the implementation of Canon 603 or consecrated life more generally?") [b]Happily that is not the case, and such concerns seem unfounded here.[/b][u][/u] Still, the claims made by Cloisters Outreach that this canonist was supervising the hermit/anchorite project on a step by step basis, the assertion that another class of would-be hermits would be begun as soon as permission was given (implying permission for and supervision of the first "Class) reflected detrimentally on her. It mattered little that her name was never used. Afterall, how many female hermit-canonists are there when Canon 603 perpetual professions in the US number fewer than 75 or so in the past 25 years? How many of those are in the Diocese of Charlotte? Those who deal with canonists, especially those who pay attention to canonists specializing (or particularly interested) in consecrated life, know precisely who is meant in these references.

One person has characterized my actions as possibly indicating an agenda and being rooted in arrogance. Arrogance literally means taking or "arrogating" to oneself something one has no right to do. I would point out that this definition of arrogance fits the Cloister Outreach programs better than it fits mine, but also, that when public claims are made, and distortions of a particular vocation in the church are fostered about a life [i]I have a publicly vowed right and responsibility to represent[/i][u][/u], I don't believe it is arrogant of me to take on the issue within the limits of my own competence and lifestyle.

Meanwhile, an agenda is an underlying program or plan, often ideological in nature. Thus, as regards an agenda, yes, I have one which involves the following elements: 1) protect the vulnerable and gullible whose desire to live religious or consecrated life makes them less objective about the Cloisters Outreach site and less inclined to verify the truth of its claims than they might otherwise ordinarily be, 2) set straight the matter of a canonist's reputation and question of her competence and prudence (to the very limited extent I am capable of doing so), and 3) witness to the reality and dignity of the eremitical vocation in the Church today, especially diocesan eremitism. It is both a wonderful, flexible, demanding, and relatively rare life vocation which is neither simply the same as living alone as an isolated person, nor is it a fallback or stopgap position to be latched onto by someone when a cenobitic "foundation" fails to be realized or someone discovers they are "not ready" for cenobitic life!

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='MaterMisericordiae' date='08 March 2010 - 07:59 AM' timestamp='1267997389' post='2068247']
I, too, have some concerns as well about the Cloisterite Foundation. I don't mean to dogpile and say stuff that has already been said, but it bothers me a little that all these new charisms are emerging when already established communities are dwindling in numbers. I think I would be less wary of the foundations if they started with more than just a group of people who had no experience in religious life. If you read the stories of founders and foundresses from the past, they had to deal with a great deal of negativity and went through many years of formation in other orders before even considering formation on their own. It also makes me wonder if it's possible that many are using this as a way to enter religious life even though they are not prepared for it or they have illnesses that preclude them from living life to the fullest. I wish Gemma well, but I am very cautious about this sort of thing.
[/quote]

[quote]
It also makes me wonder if it's possible that many are using this as a way to enter religious life even though they are not prepared for it or they have illnesses that preclude them from [u]living life to the fullest[/u][/quote]

Just a short comment on the above and off topic. I am not sure at all that you meant the above as it sounds. People ill or with disabilites can still live life to the full (depending I guess on how one defines "living life to the fullest") - perhaps they cannot live traditional religious life in community however. On this site and on other Catholic Discussion Sites I have noticed that sufferers of mental illness (I am one - Bipolar Disorder) and other types of disabilities are disappointed and saddened by an inability to enter traditional religious life, although I have noticed on the web that in the USA there are a couple of religious orders that embrace people with disabilities. In the main, however, people with disabilities are regarded as not candidates for religious life and this conveys to them a feeling of rejection and a frustration of what they perceive as their vocation. People with disabilities are not "rejects" in any way. It is sad that they can be perceived as such even unconsciously, and possibly even something that may need addressing in The Church since the sufferings of those with disabilities - and of many kinds - are invaluable to The Church when suffered in union with The Sufferings of Christ. Those who are ill or with disabilities are singularly drawn into the Sufferings of Christ in a unique manner. We used to call this the Apostolate of The Sick and research tells me it still exists here and there in various forms. People ill or with disabilities may not be able to enter traditional religious life due to those disabilities in many cases - but they can still live a life singularly devoted to Christ in some other form other than the traditional form of religious life in community. Having commented - apologies for being off topic.

I too have long had personal misgivings about Gemma's projects, while I wish her well and every blessing and hope that The Holy Spirit knows something which I do not. Someone here posted Jesus words (quoting Isaias) "the smoking flax he will not quench, nor break the bruised reed" - we need to remember this - and to my mind Gemma has come across as certainly very sincere and a person of Faith, if her websites and information just might be in need of some amending/updating in order not to be misleading if Sr. Lauren's research is accurate.

Blessings this Lent - Barb

Edited March 8, 2010 by BarbaraTherese

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='Hroswitha1943' date='07 March 2010 - 09:01 PM' timestamp='1268010075' post='2068419']
I think we should direct our compassion toward those whose hopes have been exploited and who have been so misled. I only hope that it has not progressed to the point of a monetary scam and become a criminal matter. If Gemma is delusional, that is sad, but it would be irresponsible to let her toy with other people's lives. That is not even close to "compassion." That is hard-hearted irresponsibility.
[/quote]

Well we don't know for sure if others hopes have been exploited and I have not heard her ever mention a word about money. I pray such is not the case for that is a very painful experience. Funny thing is it can happen on both sides of the equation.... I had a vocation sent to me from another Carmelite nun, who was a professional manipulator par excellance; needless to say I needed unguentine and bandages for a while given all the misinformation she gave not only to myself, local pastors, neighbors and the diocese, that it caused a veritable mess even as diligently as I tried to discern the truth of what was really going on. With her being from another country only made it more difficult to track down the truth.

She even had local priests duped for a while until I finally was able to track down a former superior of hers. So I have learned to be more careful of discerners also.

But my posts were not meant to be an apologetic for any one individual but only a caution to see more than one side of the equation. Sighs I find this all so very disheartening conversation ...

[BarbTherese]

General comment: People do indeed have a right to be set straight if they are being misinformed and it is an obligation to do so, but to stop short, I think, of questioning integrity unless there is clear evidence that the person has deliberately set out to actually misinform and it is necessary to reveal this for some just reason. The object of the whole exercise should be to set the information straight for the benefit of others perhpas by a direct and private approach to the person concerned at least initially giving that person the opportunity to set things straight themselves - and this may have been done. I have not really been following all this in a focused manner and am making a general comment not an accusation.

http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/?sufs=0&q=detraction&xsubmit=Search&s=SS
While the above link will link to the CCC on "Detraction" - again, I am not making any sort of accusations - even indirectly, but hoping to alert awareness to detraction and the terms that define it.

Blessings this Lent - Barb

Edited March 8, 2010 by BarbaraTherese

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' date='08 March 2010 - 07:45 AM' timestamp='1267996538' post='2068239']

Edited Post

If the Holy spirit is at work you will tell by its fruits... if the fruit are goodness,peace, charity, humility,truth, and love, you can be pretty sure God's hand is there somewhere... if it only makes for confusion, distrust, and dissension... well it make me wonder where that spirit is coming from.



Indwelling Trinity
[/quote]

Good comment