Cloisters Outreach Caveat Emptor

[BarbTherese]

Quoting from this Post: http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=103348&view=findpost&p=2068364

[quote]Father also told me to allow others to take little steps and learn from their mistakes. What may start out as only a broken or tiny little seed often needs only to be watered, [b]encouraged gently in truth and be given time to grow[/b]. Gemma is on her own growth pattern [b]as are we all[/b]. I would propose that it would be more effective and loving to gently point out the truth lovingly and allow her to seek her own truth slowly.

I do not condone misrepresentation but have found that folks often say things that are not quite the truth when they feel under attack. It is a psychological fact that this often happens, It is called self preservation. I don't know about anyone else here.. but [b]I AM one of the poorest of the poor and from my ow brokeness also prone to judge. I have to desist from that if I am to give any truth to what i say or do.[/b]

Can we not have empathy and put ourselves in Gemma's place on [b]how we would feel and react if all this negative feedback were coming at us[/b]?

[b]Truth without compassion is nothing more than cruelty and it is this i object too. I guess i feel i have been forgiven so much so many times by God .... who am i to pronounce my judgments on others... Yes there are time we all must Take a stand and make valid judgments in our lives about things, but let us also understand the human condition... we are all sinners and need of healing.... For those of you who can, please read between the lines. For it is hard for me to articulate this without injuring others.[/b][/quote]

Insightful comments with empathy. Certainly Gemma needs to "seek her own truth slowly" but also for her to be very aware that the Cloisterite websites are the undertaking of the guidance of other souls and this is a very serious matter(at least I think guidance of other souls in some instances - quite some time since I perused the site) . I say this only in the interests and hope that whatever is made public on the Cloisterite websites is always the most accurate of information and fully insightful of any responsibilities and accountabilities undertaken and done with the appropriate guidance all the way - and understanding that this is what is in question in this thread or concluded from this thread.

Edited March 8, 2010 by BarbaraTherese

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' date='07 March 2010 - 08:09 PM' timestamp='1268010563' post='2068429']
Just a short comment on the above and off topic. I am not sure at all that you meant the above as it sounds. People ill or with disabilites can still live life to the full (depending I guess on how one defines "living life to the fullest") - perhaps they cannot live traditional religious life in community however. On this site and on other Catholic Discussion Sites I have noticed that sufferers of mental illness (I am one - Bipolar Disorder) and other types of disabilities are disappointed and saddened by an inability to enter traditional religious life, although I have noticed on the web that in the USA there are a couple of religious orders that embrace people with disabilities. In the main, however, people with disabilities are regarded as not candidates for religious life and this conveys to them a feeling of rejection and a frustration of what they perceive as their vocation. People with disabilities are not "rejects" in any way. It is sad that they can be perceived as such even unconsciously, and possibly even something that may need addressing in The Church since the sufferings of those with disabilities - and of many kinds - are invaluable to The Church when suffered in union with The Sufferings of Christ. Those who are ill or with disabilities are singularly drawn into the Sufferings of Christ in a unique manner. We used to call this the Apostolate of The Sick and research tells me it still exists here and there in various forms. People ill or with disabilities may not be able to enter traditional religious life due to those disabilities in many cases - but they can still live a life singularly devoted to Christ in some other form other than the traditional form of religious life in community. Having commented - apologies for being off topic.

I too have long had personal misgivings about Gemma's projects, while I wish her well and every blessing and hope that The Holy Spirit knows something which I do not. Someone here posted Jesus words (quoting Isaias) "the smoking flax he will not quench, nor break the bruised reed" - we need to remember this - and to my mind Gemma has come across as certainly very sincere and a person of Faith, if her websites and information just might be in need of some amending/updating in order not to be misleading if Sr. Lauren's research is accurate.

Blessings this Lent - Barb
[/quote]

I do not mean mental illnesses like depression and such as I am a recovering patient from depression and for a time, I believed I had a vocation to religious life. However, at this point in my life, I am focusing on other tasks at hand as the calling seems to have disappeared for a time. I don't believe at all that those who have mental illnesses are rejects in any way. But it does make living religious life more difficult as I have been told by numerous vocation directors. Whether or not one could live the life depends on the mental threshold of the individual and the particular community.

[BarbTherese]

quote name='MaterMisericordiae'
[quote]I do not mean mental illnesses like depression and such as I am a recovering patient from depression and for a time, I believed I had a vocation to religious life. However, at this point in my life, I am focusing on other tasks at hand as the calling seems to have disappeared for a time. I don't believe at all that those who have mental illnesses are rejects in any way. [/quote]
Apologies - I was commenting on this:
"It also makes me wonder if it's possible that many are using this as a way to enter religious life even though they are not prepared for it or they have illnesses that preclude them from living life to the fullest"...........I suspected that you may have meant "living THE life to the fullest" (meaning religious life) - for certainly sufferers of MI and disability can still live life to the full (depending probably on how one defines a full life). Some do consider sufferers of MI in particular to be somehow "rejects" denied by God religious life (and God is allowing to be in place certain impediments to RL in most instances of RL) as some sort of an indictment of them. Not so. Rather and in the case of my own illness (and for one point only), I look upon it as God directing me into a certain direction by denying me other directions - and through the presence of Bipolar and certain restrictions applying within religious congregations. I do not look upon Bipolar as God denying me anything (negative mental state) - rather directing me through an action of His Permissive Will (Bipolar) in a certain direction (positive mental state).
If I had my own way, I would probably be in the strictest contemplative enclosed community that would have me! LOL

[quote] But it does make living religious life more difficult as I have been told by numerous vocation directors. Whether or not one could live the life depends on the mental threshold of the individual and the particular community. [/quote]

I agree. Certainly mental strength is needed for religious life and very often those who suffer some form of MI simply do not have this strength and the life may well break them or cause disturbance to others - or both.

The point I meant to convey in my comments is that sufferers of MI and disabilities have something to offer and a ministry of their own by virtue of their MI or disability per se - and can still give themselves and their lives totally to Christ but not probably in traditional religious life in community - and life in community is a mark of religious life per se as currently defined.
General Comment: Sufferers of MI and any disability or illness are not their MI, disability or illness. It is something that they bear, suffer or endure.


[quote] I am focusing on other tasks at hand as the calling seems to have disappeared for a time[/quote]

God richly bless your discernings and tasks at hand. I hope and pray that all traces of depression will very quickly be in the past - depression is a most difficult burden.... and that the depression having passed completely that you may feel a desire to reconsider religious life. God bless!

BLessings this Lent - Barb

Edited March 8, 2010 by BarbaraTherese

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='BarbaraTherese' date='07 March 2010 - 10:38 PM' timestamp='1268015896' post='2068487']
Quoting from this Post: [url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=103348&view=findpost&p=2068364"]http://www.phatmass....dpost&p=2068364[/url]



Insightful comments with empathy. Certainly Gemma needs to "seek her own truth slowly" but also for her to be very aware that the Cloisterite websites are the undertaking of the guidance of other souls and this is a very serious matter(at least I think guidance of other souls in some instances - quite some time since I perused the site) . I say this only in the interests and hope that whatever is made public on the Cloisterite websites is always the most accurate of information and fully insightful of any responsibilities and accountabilities undertaken and done with the appropriate guidance all the way - and understanding that this is what is in question in this thread or concluded from this thread.
[/quote]

I agree fully with you. Accountability in the care of souls is of utmost importance as each is precious and unique to be handled with extreme care.

Indwelling Trinity

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' date='08 March 2010 - 04:11 PM' timestamp='1268026892' post='2068636']
I agree fully with you. Accountability in the care of souls is of utmost importance as each is precious and unique to be handled with extreme care.

Indwelling Trinity
[/quote]


God bless! - Barb

[vee]

[quote]Two other women--both non-annulment divorcees--were accepted as grey-cord Lay Cloisterites[/quote]

Whats a non annulment divorcee? Someone who had a civil marriage and civil divorce but never contracted a Catholic marriage? This kind of thing prevents people from being accepted into religious life?

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='vee8' date='08 March 2010 - 06:01 PM' timestamp='1268033513' post='2068677']
Whats a non annulment divorcee? Someone who had a civil marriage and civil divorce but never contracted a Catholic marriage? This kind of thing prevents people from being accepted into religious life?
[/quote]

It could indeed mean someone who married in a civil ceremony outside The Church and was susequently divorced - this would be an impediment to canonical religious life as I understand it. The same applies for a Catholic women who perhaps married in a non Catholic religious ceremony and then subsequently divorced. I am unsure, but in the previous two examples, I think that it means that the Catholic party(ies) has placed themselves outside of The Church. Of course, they can reconcile to The Church. Unsure here, but they might be able to apply for annulment and whether if they can and it is granted, I dont know whether they are then free to enter religious life. I don't know. Unsure again, but since The Church does not recognize divorce and if the marriage is not annuled, the parties would be still married in the eyes of The Church, though divorced. "Non annulment divorcee" may also mean a person married in The Church and subsequently divorced and not eligible for annulment This also would be an impediment to canonical religious life as The Church regards the person as still married. The reason The Church asks that the parties be divorced prior to applying for any annulment is so that society regards them as not married. As I understand it, again.

I think most canonical religious orders will consider a divorced person with annulment and take personal matters into account - some however will not.

Before making private vows I needed to apply for annulment (granted) to enable me to be completely free to make private vows to the evangelical counsels of Chastity, Poverty and Obedience. My director/confessor (theologian) advised this at the time and a long and painful process it was (annulment process). I had to write my life story - twice. The first did not contain enough detail I was told. My parents and my ex husband gave evidence to the Tribunal. The annulment was granted because of the personal attitude of my ex husband at the time of our marriage and the astounding thing to me was is that he was quite honest about it to the Tribunal he says. I was not aware of this attitude at the time we married - he made me aware of it after he almost literally forced me out of our marital home and then divorced me 12 months later. Under Australian law it constituted "desertion and irreconcilable differences" (the terms he stated when applying for divorce) after 12 months living separately (tho he would not consider reconciliation) and I came home from work one day to find out from my mail I was now divorced. And first I knew that he planned to divorce me. I do recall a painful discussion with him about finances and custody of our children if it came to divorce and my divorce papers stated re finances and custody "private agreement". We were in business at the time and I had quite a few papers to be signed as I signed the business over to him since he promised to care financially for our children. At the time I was on and off ill and more often unwell than well. That is, confused.

As it was explained to me, since I had been married in The Church I would not be free to make private vows to the evangelical counsels as The Church would consider me still married. The advice that my annulment was granted did contain these words "doubtless you will be happy to know that you are now free of the bonds of marriage" (I just looked up the letter to check the wording). I had mixed feelings in truth - I think I would have been happier at that time if my marriage had persevered especially for the sake of my two sons - but for me also. Not to be! and the task was to move on in life and the annulment enabled me to do this in freedom insofar as The Church was concerned.

I was free to remarry, make private vows to the evangelical counsels or to enter religious life providing I was accepted. After the annulment and in my early forties I did enter an enclosed contemplative community and left of my own accord to continue on my way under private vows. My ex husband and I now retain a happy friendship and I rather like his new wife. In fact a couple of years ago we all got together and she cooked us Christmas lunch - not too many divorced people could do this I dont think.

Others may be more helpful - the above is all my understanding............Blessings this Lent - Barb
E&OE
We used to put on the bottom of business letters E&OE meaning "all errors and omissions excepted" - in other words I may stand corrected in some places in my post above.

Edited March 8, 2010 by BarbaraTherese

[tnavarro61]

[quote name='SRLAUREL' date='08 March 2010 - 10:06 AM' timestamp='1268010406' post='2068426']
If Cloister Outreach is to do good or is of God, it cannot be founded on or perpetuated by means of untruths; thus if the person in question wants to build on truth I think she retains the chance to do that.
[/quote]

i agree with sister laurel. we must pray for Gemma as well.

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='tnavarro61' date='08 March 2010 - 07:04 PM' timestamp='1268037252' post='2068693']
i agree with sister laurel. we must pray for Gemma as well.
[/quote]

We are all sinners - our sins differ only in kind and we all need prayer to stay on the straight and narrow from which we all stray to some degree or other. Our failures probably however will not be public in cyberspace. I shudder dreadfully at the thought of my failures finding their way to cyberspace. Unless we hear from Gemma there is no way of knowing if some misunderstanding could possibly have developed somehow. Although I agree that if Gemma has been misleading (not saying deliberately) it is an opportunity to sort it all out for her own personal benefit and reputation and for the good name and reputation of her project or projects. My assessment. Everything we post into these Catholic Discussion Sites is free to air as it were in cyberspace internationally available to all. It as a real shock to me when I first realized this........Barb

Edited March 8, 2010 by BarbaraTherese

[TotusTuusMaria]

I thank Sr. Laurel for her post as well. Very informing and clarifying, and it was certainly an issue that needed both. It maintained charity toward the person involved.

For those that are new and have not witnessed the many threads on this issue I feel very uneasy about allowing the idea to surface that all remarks about a possible lack of charity by members surrounding this issue (or rather, person) were not fair or without reason since now we know, gratefully, the status of the project. I, hopefully briefly, just want to clarify that in the past most of the comments, in my opinion (and you may take it for whatever you will) regarding a lack of charity were made because things were said unkindly about [i]the person[/i]...even to the person publicly... rather then about solely the project itself. And I am very sorry for the hostility toward her as an individual that I observed. It is a delicate matter, handled very nicely in this instance by Sr. Laurel.

Certainly it is not uncharitable to look at things with God-given reason and prudence and to look at these things (not persons) critically.

Certainly no vocation should be led astray by this odd group that claims approval and support when it has none at the moment, and it is a good thing that this has been clarified. I am certainly not sorry it has been, but rather relieved.

Thank you, Sr. Laurel.


[quote name='HisChild' date='07 March 2010 - 11:48 AM' timestamp='1267976889' post='2068026']
Exactly, ST. I don't like how some people misuse being 'charitable'. Because some disguise it as nothing more than not saying anything that can be construed as negative. Not so. In Scripture we read in MT 18:15-17 - “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’[b] 17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

It is indeed charity to offer correction if it could potentially harm the body of Christ.

No one, I think, is of the mind that these people cannot gather online for their spiritual advancement and possible holiness. But to state the Church is supporting the endeavor? Perhaps not such a good idea.
[/quote]

Indeed it is charity.

In regards to the above quote, I cannot help but wonder how many of those that were critical of her [i]as a person[/i], which - I think - is what was so often termed uncharitable by others (including myself) actually took it to her privately before saying things that were said on the public forum.

Edited March 8, 2010 by TotusTuusMaria

[Hroswitha1943]

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' date='07 March 2010 - 08:23 PM' timestamp='1268011399' post='2068436']
Well we don't know for sure if others hopes have been exploited and I have not heard her ever mention a word about money. I pray such is not the case for that is a very painful experience. Funny thing is it can happen on both sides of the equation.... I had a vocation sent to me from another Carmelite nun, who was a professional manipulator par excellance; needless to say I needed unguentine and bandages for a while given all the misinformation she gave not only to myself, local pastors, neighbors and the diocese, that it caused a veritable mess even as diligently as I tried to discern the truth of what was really going on. With her being from another country only made it more difficult to track down the truth.

She even had local priests duped for a while until I finally was able to track down a former superior of hers. So I have learned to be more careful of discerners also.

But my posts were not meant to be an apologetic for any one individual but only a caution to see more than one side of the equation. Sighs I find this all so very disheartening conversation ...
[/quote]

[Hroswitha1943]

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' date='07 March 2010 - 08:23 PM' timestamp='1268011399' post='2068436']
Well we don't know for sure if others hopes have been exploited and I have not heard her ever mention a word about money. I pray such is not the case for that is a very painful experience. Funny thing is it can happen on both sides of the equation.... I had a vocation sent to me from another Carmelite nun, who was a professional manipulator par excellance; needless to say I needed unguentine and bandages for a while given all the misinformation she gave not only to myself, local pastors, neighbors and the diocese, that it caused a veritable mess even as diligently as I tried to discern the truth of what was really going on. With her being from another country only made it more difficult to track down the truth.

She even had local priests duped for a while until I finally was able to track down a former superior of hers. So I have learned to be more careful of discerners also.

But my posts were not meant to be an apologetic for any one individual but only a caution to see more than one side of the equation. Sighs I find this all so very disheartening conversation ...
[/quote]