Thomism

[Resurrexi]

[img]http://www.aug.edu/augusta/iconography/biggerFiles/aquinasZurbaran.jpg[/img]

[Hilde]

That dude is awesome.

[Slappo]

My household, [i]Tantum Ergo Sacramentum[/i], at Franciscan has taken the Angelic Doctor as its patron. For me to not be a Thomist would be... well... wrong.

St. Thomas and Our Lady Ark of the New Covenant are our two patrons

Edited March 8, 2010 by Slappo

[KeenanParkerII]

I am not well learned enough in Thomism to be a Thomist, but surely I will be one day in the future.

Why is this in the debate forum?

[Saint Therese]

[quote name='KeenanParkerII' date='08 March 2010 - 08:05 AM' timestamp='1268053528' post='2068739']
I am not well learned enough in Thomism to be a Thomist, but surely I will be one day in the future.

Why is this in the debate forum?
[/quote]

Same here, but I figured I better vote for the Dominican!

[rhetoricfemme]

[quote name='KeenanParkerII' date='08 March 2010 - 08:05 AM' timestamp='1268053528' post='2068739']
I am not well learned enough in Thomism to be a Thomist
[/quote]
Yep. Me, too.

[HisChildForever]

[quote]Women, then, for Aquinas are essentially and fundamentally equal to men: they have the same substantial form, which determines them specifically and essentially, and their difference arises from their bodies not their souls: both participate the image of God because of their nature; woman is necessary to the completion and perfection of human nature, and is directed equally with man to the same supernatural end, concerning which there is neither difference nor discrimination because of sex.[/quote]

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=2793&CFID=30892310&CFTOKEN=73221739

I like him. He does mention women as the weaker sex, but weaker in terms of physicality.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='08 March 2010 - 12:13 PM' timestamp='1268068382' post='2068834']
http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=2793&CFID=30892310&CFTOKEN=73221739

I like him. He does mention women as the weaker sex, but weaker in terms of physicality.
[/quote]
You've reminded me that I made a short blog post about this several years ago.

[url="http://wisdomdogs.blogspot.com/2007/08/does-saint-thomas-teach-that-femininity.html"]Does Saint Thomas teach that femininity is a defect?[/url]

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='08 March 2010 - 12:20 PM' timestamp='1268068822' post='2068845']
You've reminded me that I made a short blog post about this several years ago.

[url="http://wisdomdogs.blogspot.com/2007/08/does-saint-thomas-teach-that-femininity.html"]Does Saint Thomas teach that femininity is a defect?[/url]
[/quote]

Very nice!

[HisChildForever]

[quote]So given that the male is the active principle in generation, that females do not participate actively in generation but merely supply the matter, and hence that femininity is a lesser perfection than masculinity, that females are generated accidentally, and that female bodies are less perfect than masculine bodies, Thomas concludes that women are less perfected than men in their souls, in higher reasoning, and in those virtues which require reason's direction of actions. As will be shown in the second part of this study, this inferiority is the reason why the woman is subject to the man in domestic, civil, and ecclesiastical societies.[/quote]

What???????? I change my vote.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='08 March 2010 - 10:54 AM' timestamp='1268070853' post='2068882']
What???????? I change my vote.
[/quote]

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='08 March 2010 - 12:54 PM' timestamp='1268070853' post='2068882']
What???????? I change my vote.
[/quote]
Sad story.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='08 March 2010 - 01:21 PM' timestamp='1268072503' post='2068908']
Sad story.
[/quote]

Why? Do you believe that women are "less perfect" in their souls and reasoning? That they should be subject to men in "domestic, civil, and ecclesiastical societies"? Clearly Aquinas believed that the roles of husband and wife should be extended to include the roles of man and woman in general in society.

[HisChildForever]

"Females are generated accidentally" what does THAT mean???

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='08 March 2010 - 11:21 AM' timestamp='1268072503' post='2068908']
Sad story.
[/quote]
As Yoda said: "Now matters are worse."

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='08 March 2010 - 01:32 PM' timestamp='1268073162' post='2068916']
Why? Do you believe that women are "less perfect" in their souls and reasoning? That they should be subject to men in "domestic, civil, and ecclesiastical societies"? Clearly Aquinas believed that the roles of husband and wife should be extended to include the roles of man and woman in general in society.
[/quote]
What is sad is that you apparently reject Thomism based on a cursory reading of a dubious article. Sadness. I would suggest actually studying Thomism before sweeping it aside. And if you reject an entire tradition of thought because the founder was not PC by modern standards you will have to discard a lot more than Thomism.
Yes, Saint Thomas Aquinas was a product of his time (and thus accepted much of Aristotelian biology) but he was not a misogynist and I think it is illogical to reject his theology so flippantly.

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='08 March 2010 - 01:33 PM' timestamp='1268073205' post='2068918']
"Females are generated accidentally" what does THAT mean???
[/quote]
A paraphrase of the old [i]femina est mas occasionatus[/i]. That means that woman is a "defective" or "occasioned" male (lol, the Latin verb used by Thomas is [i]occasionare[/i]). A feature of the Aristotelian theory of gestation that Aquinas rejects but that "feminist" controversialists like to throw around in order to turn people off to Aquinas I assume.

But seriously, that old blog post above discusses that in particular and here is more...

[url="http://talesuntold.com/working/ArFt1FinlTahoma.htm"]The Aristotelian Background to Aquinas' Denial that "Woman is a Defective Male"[/url]
http://www.churchinhistory.org/pages/booklets/women-souls-1.htm

Some primary source material..

http://www.corpusthomisticum.org/snp4034.html
http://www.corpusthomisticum.org/sth1090.html
http://www.corpusthomisticum.org/scg3064.html#26468

In 2 Sent., 20, 2, 1, ad 1;
In 4 Sent., 44, 1, 3c, ad 3;
Summa Theologiae, 1, 92, 1, ad 1;
Summa Theologiae, 1, 99, 2, ad 1;
De Veritate, 5, 9, ad 9;
Summa Contra Gentiles, 3, 94, n.10.

[HisChildForever]

So since I do not consider myself a Thomist, I am automatically rejecting [u]all[/u] of his theology? Then I suppose you should also be sad for the people who voted "no."

[quote]And if you reject an entire tradition of thought because the founder was not PC by modern standards you will have to discard a lot more than Thomism. [/quote]

You know better than to equate me with political correctness.

[zunshynn]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='08 March 2010 - 12:39 PM' timestamp='1268077192' post='2068975']
Yes, Saint Thomas Aquinas was a product of his time (and thus accepted much of Aristotelian biology) but he was not a misogynist and I think it is illogical to reject his theology so flippantly.
[/quote]

I agree with this comment. There are a lot of saints who's ideas about the role of women (and minorities, and a lot of other things) are not what we would consider acceptable nowadays, but that doesn't mean that they didn't respect women. In fact, I'm pretty sure that even with a flawed understanding of biology and anatomy, St. Thomas had greater respect for women than most men that are gung-ho about women's rights.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='08 March 2010 - 02:49 PM' timestamp='1268077769' post='2068984']
You know better than to equate me with political correctness.
[/quote]
I actually used that just to be an ass because I know you hate PC-ness. I'm an asinine guy.

[HisChildForever]

[quote]So given that the male is the active principle in generation, that females do not participate actively in generation but merely supply the matter, and hence that femininity is a lesser perfection than masculinity, that females are generated accidentally, and that female bodies are less perfect than masculine bodies, Thomas concludes that women are less perfected than men in their souls, in higher reasoning, and in those virtues which require reason's direction of actions. As will be shown in the second part of this study, this inferiority is the reason why the woman is subject to the man in domestic, civil, and ecclesiastical societies.[/quote]

Does Aquinas not teach that women have less perfect souls and less perfect reasoning than males? Does he not teach that women are to be subject to men in all things, i.e. domestic, civil, and ecclesiastical societies?