Extern Sisters

[Kathgirl]

Do Extern Sisters live outside the Enclosure?
If they do, are they allowed to enter the enclosure?
For example, when I watch Benediction on EWTN, I see 3 nuns on the public side and the enclosed Sisters are on the monastery side. So, where do the externs live? Are there certain times they join the other sisters? Are they missing out on the beautiful life shared in community?

[Saint Therese]

I think it varies by community/order.

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='Kathgirl' date='13 March 2010 - 10:14 AM' timestamp='1268489662' post='2072294']
Do Extern Sisters live outside the Enclosure?
If they do, are they allowed to enter the enclosure?
For example, when I watch Benediction on EWTN, I see 3 nuns on the public side and the enclosed Sisters are on the monastery side. So, where do the externs live? Are there certain times they join the other sisters? Are they missing out on the beautiful life shared in community?
[/quote]

I agree with ST It depends on the community but below seems to be the general norm for most both before and after the counsel.

It used to be that externs had their own living quarters outside of the nuns enclosure but within the monastery. Years ago they had thier recreation with another extern. They had a choice to participate in the office from the public side of the chapel but were not bound to say the whole office. Usually they did not enter the enclosure of the nuns. They took simple perpetual vows rather than solemn vows.

Since Vatican II things have changed very much. Many externs now have meals and some of the office in the nuns choir. They recreate with the nuns and sleep now within the nuns enclosure. Many now even have a vote in chapter. I think this has been a wonderful change for them while still allowing them to exercise their calling as externs. It is a very busy and hardworking lifestyle choice and one needs special graces to be able to live it. It is not easy to always smile and be patient when answering the door and phone at least thirty times a day. God bless those who have been given that gift... for myself i could never do it as I just need a lot more silence and solitude.

I hope this calriifies somewhat rather than adding confusion to the understanding the vocation.

tenderly,

Indwelling Trinity:turban:

[Saint Therese]

How do you know if you have an exern vocation?

[Two Hearts]

VATII asked that Extern Sisters be brought inside the monastery to live, eat, recreate and pray with the nuns. They were to be considered full members of the community, receiving the same formation, with the only difference being their simple vows which allows them to be present to visitors and attend to all areas of the monastery outside the enclosure, as well as representing the Community as needed. they are no longer considered less than the nuns in solemn vows. The Extern vocation is a very distinct vocation and a beautiful one at that.

It has been disappointing to see monasteries who still have their Extern Sisters living outside the enclosure, therefore treating them as less than full members of the community. On the other hand, some monasteries brought their Externs inside for good, and they made solemn vows - feeling no need for Extern sisters. This is sad b/c it is a distinct and not interchangeable vocation. While this was wonderful for the Externs Sisters who felt called to be enclosed, it was not true for all.

Religious life is fascinating and complex!

In the Two Hearts...

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='Two Hearts' date='13 March 2010 - 11:36 AM' timestamp='1268494591' post='2072321']
VATII asked that Extern Sisters be brought inside the monastery to live, eat, recreate and pray with the nuns. They were to be considered full members of the community, receiving the same formation, with the only difference being their simple vows which allows them to be present to visitors and attend to all areas of the monastery outside the enclosure, as well as representing the Community as needed. they are no longer considered less than the nuns in solemn vows. The Extern vocation is a very distinct vocation and a beautiful one at that.

It has been disappointing to see monasteries who still have their Extern Sisters living outside the enclosure, therefore treating them as less than full members of the community. On the other hand, some monasteries brought their Externs inside for good, and they made solemn vows - feeling no need for Extern sisters. This is sad b/c it is a distinct and not interchangeable vocation. While this was wonderful for the Externs Sisters who felt called to be enclosed, it was not true for all.

Religious life is fascinating and complex!

In the Two Hearts...
[/quote]

Wonderful reply two hearts!

[Saint Therese]

[quote name='Saint Therese' date='13 March 2010 - 10:22 AM' timestamp='1268493773' post='2072309']
How do you know if you have an exern vocation?
[/quote]

?

[vee]

[Two Hearts]

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' date='13 March 2010 - 11:43 AM' timestamp='1268495036' post='2072325']
Wonderful reply two hearts!
[/quote]

Had to check on some laundry before I finished the post, then returned and hit reply before I saw your wonderful reply! I meant your reply to the extern question, not my post!!

Edited March 13, 2010 by Two Hearts

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='Saint Therese' date='13 March 2010 - 11:54 AM' timestamp='1268495674' post='2072328']
?
[/quote]

I am not a extern.. but i would think one would have the capacity for both silence and intense interaction with others in a gentle and encouraging manner. I think it might be well that one is self disciplined so as to maintain their personal prayer life with out having to be constantly over seen by others. A sense of humor and affability wouldbe great as a way of silent proclamation of the Gospel to those who come to the monastery.Finally I thunk a good sense of self would be important...secure enough so as not to think of themselves as less than the rest of the community but rather see themselves as having a unique contribution to the whole of the community.

I guess the best way to find out would be to talk to a prioress or novice Mistress who trains externs and even an extern themself

Just an opinion as i have never been one myself.

[HisChild]

While I really treasure my silence and solitude, there is a part of me that wondered if I might be called to an extern vocation. When I brought that up to one community's superior, she said that it would be better to consider the extern vocation, and live it, first if it was a remote possibility and then later become cloistered if it turns out that one doesn't have an extern vocation. She said that once you make solemn vows, if you either wonder later, or haven't at least tried the vocation at first and want to try it later, you'd be unable to do so, because upon making solemn vows one cannot leave the enclosure for an extern vocation. So that's how one community explained it to me.

I don't know how one would discern if one was called to an extern vocation. If I had to make an intelligent guess I'd say if one was feeling called to the contemplative life, but not necessarily the cloistered life. But one should go into that discernment with the knowledge that depending on how busy the monastery is (ie: phone calls, visitors, etc.) so too would the extern be really busy.

When I visited Lufkin Dominicans (don't know if they have their own externs now) they didn't have externs so Mother Superior would assign two sisters each year to take the role of extern. It actually was how I met one of the nuns when I was discerning with them. We became friends from 1992 to just a couple years ago when she lost her battle with Cancer. I was so grateful to have that friendship. Anyway, they were responsible for the 'locals' who came in for Mass or Adoration, the cleaning of the public side of the chapel and monastery (visiting parlors etc.) But they did pray with the sisters in choir and Mass. They only left the enclosure for their 'job'.

I know the SLC Carmel has one older extern sister. She lives in an apartment on the grounds, prepares most of her own meals, even has her own dog! She wears the same habit but because of the fund raising festival that the community puts on for the sisters each year, etc., she really does do a lot of work outside the monastery enclsoure. [url="http://www.sltrib.com/lds/ci_13358898"]Here's an article about her[/url]

Each community sees externs (if they have them) in their own way, so I'd think that not only is the vocation to extern life rather unique, a vocation within a vocation, but one also needs to discern how each community views externs to determine if that's one's calling. Because there are some communities that I know I'd feel more called to their cloistered life, and others their extern life. Does that make sense?

[Saint Therese]

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' date='13 March 2010 - 11:05 AM' timestamp='1268496350' post='2072334']
I am not a extern.. but i would think one would have the capacity for both silence and intense interaction with others in a gentle and encouraging manner. I think it might be well that one is self disciplined so as to maintain their personal prayer life with out having to be constantly over seen by others. A sense of humor and affability wouldbe great as a way of silent proclamation of the Gospel to those who come to the monastery.Finally I [size="3"][b]thunk [/b][/size]a good sense of self would be important...secure enough so as not to think of themselves as less than the rest of the community but rather see themselves as having a unique contribution to the whole of the community.

I guess the best way to find out would be to talk to a prioress or novice Mistress who trains externs and even an extern themself

Just an opinion as i have never been one myself.
[/quote]

+1 For using the word "thunk".

[Cherie]

[quote name='HisChild' date='13 March 2010 - 12:13 PM' timestamp='1268496839' post='2072337']

Each community sees externs (if they have them) in their own way, so I'd think that not only is the vocation to extern life rather unique, a vocation within a vocation, but one also needs to discern how each community views externs to determine if that's one's calling. Because there are some communities that I know I'd feel more called to their cloistered life, and others their extern life. Does that make sense?
[/quote]

Good reply, HC. I would think it is a "vocation within a vocation", meaning that you should discern the community you feel God is calling you to, and THEN discern whether or not you feel called to the charism of an extern Sister. Each cloistered community is a bit different regarding externs. Perhaps the Vocation Directress will bring this question up herself with you.


[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' date='13 March 2010 - 12:05 PM' timestamp='1268496350' post='2072334']
Iam not a extern.. but i would think one would have the capacity forboth silence and intense interaction with others in a gentle andencouraging manner. I think it might be well that one is selfdisciplined so as to maintain their personal prayer life with outhaving to be constantly over seen by others. A sense of humor andaffability wouldbe great as a way of silent proclamation of the Gospelto those who come to the monastery.Finally I thunk a good sense of selfwould be important...secure enough so as not to think of themselves asless than the rest of the community but rather see themselves as havinga unique contribution to the whole of the community.

[/quote]

GREAT answer!


I think it's important that someone discerning an extern vocation should not be confused with someone who truly has an active/contemplative vocation. I know of quite a number of people who had this problem.

[HisChild]

[quote name='CherieMadame' date='13 March 2010 - 09:59 AM' timestamp='1268499543' post='2072352']


I think it's important that someone discerning an extern vocation should not be confused with someone who truly has an active/contemplative vocation. I know of quite a number of people who had this problem.
[/quote]

Exactly. For instance, The Sisters of Life call themselves contemplative active vs. the other way around. Mother Agnes told me it was because it was through their prayer that they were able to do any active ministry at all. If their own spiritual wells were dry, how could they be of any service to others? They have a tremendous spiritual life, almost as much as I've seen in some monasteries, but they're also very active. If one is considering a contemplative vocation, it would be good to visit with and discern with not only a purely contemplative community (cloistered or not) as well as those who have an active apostolate balanced with prayer.

[DameAgnes]

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' date='13 March 2010 - 11:05 AM' timestamp='1268496350' post='2072334']
I am not a extern.. but i would think one would have the capacity for both silence and intense interaction with others in a gentle and encouraging manner. I think it might be well that one is self disciplined so as to maintain their personal prayer life with out having to be constantly over seen by others. A sense of humor and affability wouldbe great as a way of silent proclamation of the Gospel to those who come to the monastery.Finally I thunk a good sense of self would be important...secure enough so as not to think of themselves as less than the rest of the community but rather see themselves as having a unique contribution to the whole of the community.

I guess the best way to find out would be to talk to a prioress or novice Mistress who trains externs and even an extern themself

Just an opinion as i have never been one myself.
[/quote]

I am surprised to read that you are not an extern, sister, being as your post so frequently. I have no problem with that, btw, but it strikes me that we've had some pm'ers in the past getting antsy about cloistered sisters "breaking enclosure" by going on to the internet or posting in forums. Apparently that concern has been assuaged, now. This, I think, is a good thing, as it is very helpful to get the perspective of a cloistered nun.

Edited March 13, 2010 by DameAgnes

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='DameAgnes' date='13 March 2010 - 01:04 PM' timestamp='1268499868' post='2072356']
I am surprised to read that you are not an extern, sister, being as your post so frequently. I have no problem with that, btw, but it strikes me that we've had some pm'ers in the past getting antsy about cloistered sisters "breaking enclosure" by going on to the internet or posting in forums. Apparently that concern has been assuaged, now. This, I think, is a good thing, as it is very helpful to get the perspective of a cloistered nun.
[/quote]

Laughing. I suppose some would think of me as an extern sister with my posting. I looked at my profile and I post 1.32 posts daily as an average.. at least according to phatmass statistics.

I think it would be polite of me to clarify this so others should not be scandalized by my posting.

First to me and most important is that I have the permission of my Prioress to do so.

I belong to a few groups, one of which i am a moderator and board member. It is a group of lay people and priests and religious who wish to form a life of contemplative spirituality in the world following the Carthusian tradition. I am kind of a contemplative rep LOL...really not a big deal. Occasionally i write things and do the usual moderator things.

That I also belong to Phatmass is obvious... but if you will see almost 100% of my posting is on Vocation Station.

I do not surf the web just to occupy myself or entertain myself. I am on line for a purpose, and that is to share spiritually with others what little God gives me in prayer. I am kind of an enigma to myself..laughing. For instead of being distracted from my contemplative hermit vocation by this,; iI find that it only enhances my spiritual prayer life. I am surely able to remain for long periods of time in solitude and silence but when i do, a funny thing happens to me; almost like a chain reaction.

The deeper I pray, the more the Lord puts the fire in my heart to share that love and insight that I have received with others in love. After having done so, that in turn pulls me back into silence solitude and prayer even more forcefully and I bring all those whom I know into that prayer with me and so fires my love again to give myself for others that they to may enjoy the beauty and love that I have known.

Even though my typing is lousy..LOL I feel in a very tiny way and i say tiny( for I am no writer) Some of the conflict that i think Merton did. He was a true monk and hermit in an order known for speaking only a few words: yet he generated prolific number of writings which stemmed from his own life in Christ. It was a fire in him that had to be let out and given to others. If he did not, He could never be the monk he was called to be.

So the same with me. It is the fire of love in my heart I want to share with others so they too may know that very same fire. If I did not share it, i would not be able to be the hermit I am today, for the two compliment each other in my particular vocation. Whether it be in a simple joke to uplift someone or something more serious and deeper in nature, it all satisfies in my heart the desire to give completely of myself to God and others.

Most of the other sisters in my community almost abhor contact with the outside world. I embrace it as part of the whole of who I am. To do less would be to be unfaithful to my calling. My Prioress seeing my ability to touch others through writing thus allows me to do so as an expression of my love.

Who am I? nobody... Just a little one who wishes to give and love others tenderly in whatever way i can. If Mother were to tell me to stop this instant, the plug would be pulled in the blink of an eye.

However, this impetus in me is consonant with the roots of my Order where the hermits would come down from Carmel from time to time to share the fruits of their spiritual life with others and then peacefully return to their solitude.

Many of the desert fathers did this and even today you will find books written by hermits for others, like "The Hermitage Within" which is a spiritual classic today. The book is written anonymously by a hermit but it is the outgrowth of this hermits love of God and others which forced him to share what he had been given in silence, solitude and prayer. Look at all the richness of the writings of the Carmelite saints. Laughing... surely i don't count among them but the fire in their hearts caused them to write and how much poorer would we be today with out their writings.

The Internet is the snail mail of yesterday... It becomes dangerous only when one misuses it ie: to escape their solitude, to look at sites not befitting a religious, or to use others as a personal steam valve to offset their living with their sisters, to avoid their solitude, to use it as a means of gossip or to neglect ones prayerlife.

I have many times examined my conscience and none are true for me and so I have no apologies. Besides I go by the way of obedience which is the safest way.

I only want to share with others the beauty i see and to let others know how precious they are to God and finally in as poor a way as i can, be a stepping stone others may use on their journey to God.

I deeply wish all to know God's merciful love and to try in my own poor ways to draw others to that Mercy wherever or however he may be calling them. No secret agenda's.

There is a possibility that i will be called back to living fully with the Hermits and Mother has already told me she wishes for me to continue writing as part of my work. Not only on the internet but also by snail mail to the hundreds of people who write to the monastery looking for solace or guidance in the spiritual life according to Carmelite spirituality. It would be a happy obedience for me to do between washing toilets and mending clothes..LOL But even those things are a joy. So many are so hungry for God and the spiritual life that even a few words are like a drop of fresh water in the desert of our secular society.

Now I ask all of you my friends ... If my posts are not doing any good to anyone spiritually, do not bring better love of God and understanding for the preciousness of each of our individual vocations, do not bring a little lightness at times or are a source of scandal to the majority of you. Please i beg you tell me and I will cease and desist and just continue to hold each one of you silently in my heart lovingly before God in prayer.

This is not a defensive response to your post Dame Agnes; but only an explanation of why i am here in the first place which is to share in love what little has been given me.

I apologize for talking about myself so much in this post and truthfully feel humiliated in doing so, but since the topic was brought up I felt it was better to face it head on.

If loving is breaking enclosure to some, then I plead guilty. But enclosure is meant to be a means of greater love and not disdain for those outside of the enclosure. If it expands your love... then enclosure is right for you. I have lived silent solitary enclosure for many years without problem and can easily do so again if it is Gods will that i speak no more. I love you all!

Tenderly in Our Mother of Carmel,

Indwelling Trinity

Edited March 13, 2010 by Indwelling Trinity

[vee]

[quote name='Indwelling Trinity' date='14 March 2010 - 05:57 AM' timestamp='1268510272' post='2072456']


Most of the other sisters in my community almost abhor contact with the outside world. I embrace it as part of the whole of who I am. To do less would be to be unfaithful to my calling. My Prioress seeing my ability to touch others through writing thus allows me to do so as an expression of my love.

There is a possibility that i will be called back to living fully with the Hermits and Mother has already told me she wishes for me to continue writing as part of my work.

[/quote]

So you are a member of a community but dont live in community? Sorry I am a bit confused.

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='vee8' date='13 March 2010 - 09:27 PM' timestamp='1268530069' post='2072563']
So you are a member of a community but dont live in community? Sorry I am a bit confused.
[/quote]

It is OK sis... I am an associate hermit professed with them for 7 years. I have Multiple Sclerosis and am profoundly hard of hearing. At the Monastery the hermitages are quite far away from the main building. Minnesota winters are extremely cold and buried in snow. Mother feared that with my MS I would not be able to manage the deep snow and with my hearing loss would not be able to communicate by walkie talkie that they use. so if I fell etc... wI would not be able to mange to get help.

Now with new technology in hearing aids ans seeing that my MS has not progressed substantially the sisters are willing to have me live with the in a new hermitage nearer the main buildings.

Truthfully I do not know if this is God's will for i believe he has put in my heart the idea of founding a semi- eremitical Carmel devoted to Divine Mercy,as you can see on my profile. I am in contact with the provincial and have 4 women who wish to join me. My Prioress encouraes me as well as my spiritual director in this undertaking. But recently Mother felt maybe i was to live out divine mercy under the hermits.

The proposed community is strongly in my heart but I must be open to wherever God may send me... as I have said so many times the most important thing is to be in God's will through Obedience and humility. and so I keep my mind open and defer to my superior as we continue to discern God's will. I want only to say yes to Jesus in whatever way he wants. For the past 7 years i have been living as a finally professed Carmelite hermit. If Mother tells me to come back it would only be a transfer. And so I pray and wait to know God's will. I must be ready to live this life in a way that does not necessarily end in my own way of understanding it and so must be docile.

I hope I have not confused you more! laughing...

Tenderly,

Indwelling Trinity

[Thomist-in-Training]

Dear Indwelling Trinity,
Your posts are wonderful! I would only joke that you are guilty of a small fib ---by claiming you are not much of a writer!

This is one of those boards that are kind of paradoxical, most people here are on the outside, aiming at the inside, of a convent or monastery. So naturally we have more hunches and secondhand news than real information--and perhaps more youthful zeal than insight and experience. It is really a blessing to have posters like you, who have tact, experience of religious life and life in general, a deep spirituality, and a sense of humor! May holy obedience permit you to keep writing for a long time!

[Indwelling Trinity]

[quote name='Thomist-in-Training' date='13 March 2010 - 10:09 PM' timestamp='1268532595' post='2072579']
Dear Indwelling Trinity,
Your posts are wonderful! I would only joke that you are guilty of a small fib ---by claiming you are not much of a writer!

This is one of those boards that are kind of paradoxical, most people here are on the outside, aiming at the inside, of a convent or monastery. So naturally we have more hunches and secondhand news than real information--and perhaps more youthful zeal than insight and experience. It is really a blessing to have posters like you, who have tact, experience of religious life and life in general, a deep spirituality, and a sense of humor! May holy obedience permit you to keep writing for a long time!
[/quote]

God bless you and thank you my friend... gentle hug:kiss: