Possibility Of New Diocese For Medjugorje?

[Slappo]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='24 March 2010 - 12:28 PM' timestamp='1269458901' post='2079169']
Why?
[/quote]


[quote name='hot stuff' date='24 March 2010 - 12:47 PM' timestamp='1269460056' post='2079176']
why? Its not a judgment. its an observation.
[/quote]

Because I know many people who have been there who do not believe Medjugorje to be true.

I think it is a poor observation. I also think that even if it were a true observation, it would be meaningless information.

Edited March 24, 2010 by Slappo

[Jaime]

[quote name='Slappo' date='24 March 2010 - 04:03 PM' timestamp='1269461033' post='2079188']
Because I know many people who have been there who do not believe Medjugorie to be true.

I think it is a poor observation. I also think that even if it were a true observation, it would be meaningless information.
[/quote]


Define many

[God Conquers]

I know 12 people I can think of right now personally who have visited, and 12 people who believe in them. I'd agree, that I've never met a skeptic who's been there.

I have never been there, but I can only trust the experiences of those who have and reserve my own judgement yea or nay.

[Slappo]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='24 March 2010 - 01:09 PM' timestamp='1269461347' post='2079193']
Define many
[/quote]
Edit:

I'm not going to guess because I don't want my numbers to wrong.

But again... even if 99% of the people who have been to medjugorie believe it, the data is irrelevant.

Edited March 24, 2010 by Slappo

[Jaime]

[quote name='Slappo' date='24 March 2010 - 04:18 PM' timestamp='1269461886' post='2079200']
Out of all the people I know that have been to Medjugorie, I think at least 20% of them don't buy it.


Sure that seems a low %. However that is a pretty high % if you think about the fact that the majority of people that go to Medjugorie probably go because they believe it.
[/quote]

And how many do you know that went? I mean if you know 10 people...

If you know a thousand people. well then there's something there.

Regardless, definin 20% as many is generous and it doesn't make my observation "poor" that generally people who think its a fake have not gone.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Slappo' date='24 March 2010 - 04:18 PM' timestamp='1269461886' post='2079200']
Edit:

I'm not going to guess because I don't want my numbers to wrong.

But again... even if 99% of the people who have been to medjugorie believe it, the data is irrelevant.
[/quote]

So you are actually adding support to my "poor" observation

[Slappo]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='24 March 2010 - 01:21 PM' timestamp='1269462109' post='2079206']
And how many do you know that went? I mean if you know 10 people...

If you know a thousand people. well then there's something there.

Regardless, definin 20% as many is generous and it doesn't make my observation "weak" that generally people who think its a fake have not gone.
[/quote]


See my edit please.

Also... of course people that think it's a fake haven't gone... why would they spend $5,000 to go see something they think is fake? That's why even if the observation is true it is meaningless.

[Slappo]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='24 March 2010 - 01:23 PM' timestamp='1269462213' post='2079207']
So you are actually adding support to my "poor" observation
[/quote]




how did that add support? I said 1. the observation is meaningless, 2. I'm not going to guess on how many ppl I know went to medj and how many didn't believe it.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Slappo' date='24 March 2010 - 04:23 PM' timestamp='1269462233' post='2079208']
See my edit please.

Also... of course people that think it's a fake haven't gone... why would they spend $5,000 to go see something they think is fake? That's why even if the observation is true it is meaningless.
[/quote]

What is "poor" is your belief that people go with a predisposed belief that its true. I think what is better stated is that a lot of folks are hopeful that its true. But there are plenty of people who are going to decide for themselves. And there are literally thousands of stories of people who went and converted.

So its not meaningless. Its fair to say that people who think its fake are not forming an educated opinion because they are lacking data.

And again, people have the right to think its fake. People also have the right to think Fatima and Lourdes are fake.

[Jaime]

[quote name='Slappo' date='24 March 2010 - 04:25 PM' timestamp='1269462315' post='2079210']



how did that add support? I said 1. the observation is meaningless, 2. I'm not going to guess on how many ppl I know went to medj and how many didn't believe it.
[/quote]

You said it was a poor observation. Then you said it was a correct observation. I disagree that its a meaningless observation.


There are lots of people who go to ireland and think that kissin the blarney stone will give them good luck. They later find out that the locals who encourage them had gotten drunk the night before and peed on it.

they went and they learned that they did something gross. People who go to Medjugorje who are curious about what is going there come away with what they believe to be true. I wouldn't consider that meaningless at all

[Slappo]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='24 March 2010 - 01:28 PM' timestamp='1269462529' post='2079215']
What is "poor" is your belief that people go with a predisposed belief that its true. I think what is better stated is that a lot of folks are hopeful that its true. But there are plenty of people who are going to decide for themselves. And there are literally thousands of stories of people who went and converted.

[b]So its not meaningless. Its fair to say that people who think its fake are not forming an educated opinion because they are lacking data. [/b]

And again, people have the right to think its fake. People also have the right to think Fatima and Lourdes are fake.
[/quote]

If I say something is a poor observation it does not mean that the observation is correct. If I say you performed poorly on a math test it does not mean you got the math problems correct.


Maybe I should go try out the Jehovah's Witnesses so I can educate myself on them before making the decision that it is bad.

Maybe I should vote for Obama as president in 2012 and get him elected so that after he has reigned for an additional 4 years I can truly say that he sucked as a president.

Maybe I should hike Mt. Everest before I make an educated opinion that I would not enjoy such an event.


You seem think educated opinions can only be made through experiences but this goes against reason. That is actually similar to Immanuel Kant's philosophy.

Edited March 24, 2010 by Slappo

[God Conquers]

I''m just interested in knowing exactly how many people you personally know who have gone to Medjugorja and then not believed it.

Why won't you say?

[Jaime]

[quote name='Slappo' date='24 March 2010 - 04:36 PM' timestamp='1269463014' post='2079221']
If I say something is a poor observation it does not mean that the observation is correct. If I say you performed poorly on a math test it does not mean you got the math problems correct.


Maybe I should go try out the Jehovah's Witnesses so I can educate myself on them before making the decision that it is bad.

Maybe I should vote for Obama as president in 2012 and get him elected so that after he has reigned for an additional 4 years I can truly say that he sucked as a president.

Maybe I should hike Mt. Everest before I make an educated opinion that I would not enjoy such an event.


You seem think educated opinions can only be made through experiences but this goes against reason. That is actually similar to Immanuel Kant's philosophy.
[/quote]


See the fact that you resort to straw man arguments is disappointing. None of these examples are comparable.

[Slappo]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='24 March 2010 - 01:40 PM' timestamp='1269463226' post='2079226']
I''m just interested in knowing exactly how many people you personally know who have gone to Medjugorja and then not believed it.

Why won't you say?
[/quote]

Because i don't know exactly how many people...

I went to Franciscan University which offers an Austria semester abroad program. During the semester abroad in Austria many students go to many apparition sites. I don't know which friends went and which friends did not go. The more I thought about it the more I questioned which people had gone and which people hadn't.

[KnightofChrist]

The disobedience of the "seers" is important to the validity of Medjugorja.

[God Conquers]

[quote name='Slappo' date='24 March 2010 - 04:44 PM' timestamp='1269463498' post='2079231']
Because i don't know exactly how many people...

I went to Franciscan University which offers an Austria semester abroad program. During the semester abroad in Austria many students go to many apparition sites. I don't know which friends went and which friends did not go. The more I thought about it the more I questioned which people had gone and which people hadn't.
[/quote]

Bottom line: you made a statement which you can in no way back up. Just so we know.

[Slappo]

[quote name='hot stuff' date='24 March 2010 - 01:44 PM' timestamp='1269463456' post='2079230']
See the fact that you resort to straw man arguments is disappointing. None of these examples are comparable.
[/quote]

None of them are exactly analogous, you are correct. They aren't meant to be.

However the end result, that you seem think experiential knowledge of medjugorie is necessary for an educated opinion is false.


More analogous example:

I cannot make a sound judgment on whether or not a particular person has the ability to read my soul (Like St. Pio could, not talking tarrot cards or croutons like that) unless I have seen that person and have experienced his ability/inability directly.

What you are saying is that unless the Church has an official statement regarding the validity of an apparition or miracle, or I have personally visited that apparition site/miracle worker, I cannot make an educated opinion on the validity.

[Slappo]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='24 March 2010 - 01:48 PM' timestamp='1269463736' post='2079238']
Bottom line: you made a statement which you can in no way back up. Just so we know.
[/quote]

Ok.

I don't need proof of everything I say. But yes, I can in no way back that up.

Even if I could give you a number, you could merely claim it was false or I was in error.

[God Conquers]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='24 March 2010 - 04:45 PM' timestamp='1269463523' post='2079233']
The disobedience of the "seers" is important to the validity of Medjugorja.
[/quote]

It is. This is one of the points I'm most interested in hearing out of the inquiry. Along with the ongoing nature of the apparitions (locutions? is that more correct?).

It will indeed be very nice to get something official.

[God Conquers]

[quote name='Slappo' date='24 March 2010 - 04:50 PM' timestamp='1269463813' post='2079242']
Ok.

I don't need proof of everything I say. But yes, I can in no way back that up.

Even if I could give you a number, you could merely claim it was false or I was in error.
[/quote]

haha, I appreciate the honesty. I'd just make up a number. 15! out of 18! Shut up!

*sinner'ssigh*