Has Russia Been Properly Consecrated

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='charleseherring' date='31 March 2010 - 06:59 PM' timestamp='1270083557' post='2084436']
i think my thread got hijacked... i never asked the state of america's colictive soul, i asked about the consecration of russia, if it happened or not, yes it has ramifications out side of that but the point is did it happen or not and how can i prove it happened, america is not as bad as you are making it sound btw, i fully belive that we can recover this country, God forbid that it takes a civil war, but if it does i know plenty who with sacrifice there lives for the greater good of righting this country.
“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.” — Thomas Jefferson
[/quote]
It actually is not so much of a hijack of your thread, because the topic is connected to the secondary question in relation to the consecration of Russia, that is, that if it was not done Russia will spread its errors, but that is not likely to happen. America is responsible for the spread of more moral error than Russia. It is our culture that is truly sick.

God bless.

As far as the main point of the thread is concerned . . . I agree with Nihil's original post.

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='31 March 2010 - 09:57 AM' timestamp='1270051046' post='2084056']
The Church says it was done, and I believe it was done, but I also don't believe it matters.
[/quote]

Edited April 1, 2010 by Apotheoun

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='31 March 2010 - 11:57 AM' timestamp='1270051046' post='2084056']
The Church says it was done, and I believe it was done, but I also don't believe it matters.
[/quote]

Do you believe in Fatima? You're not required to, but I don't really see any reason not to. If you do, it matters a lot.

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='31 March 2010 - 05:04 PM' timestamp='1270069462' post='2084254']
There is a greater likelihood that the United States will become a socialist dictatorship than Russia return to communism. It is America that is embracing godlessness, not Russia.
[/quote]

*raises eyebrow* You do know we're talking about RUSSIA, right?

[quote name='Socrates' date='31 March 2010 - 06:40 PM' timestamp='1270075210' post='2084316']
I admit I've never been to Russia, but from what I've read contemporary Russia sounds like a pretty godless place.
Not denying there's some good Christians there, but overall Russian society seems not so godly. Still heavily atheist and irreligious, with a lot of lawlessness, crime, and immorality. Among the world's highest abortion rates, rampant prostitution and drugs, etc.
[/quote]
This

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='31 March 2010 - 07:10 PM' timestamp='1270077007' post='2084356']
That's your opinion, which I find asinine. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/lol_grin.gif[/img]
[/quote]

There wasn't a single opinion in his post. Russia is terribly secular, and is among the most corrupt and immoral places on the globe.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='31 March 2010 - 07:46 PM' timestamp='1270086376' post='2084462']
There wasn't a single opinion in his post. Russia is terribly secular, and is among the most corrupt and immoral places on the globe.
[/quote]
That is an opinion. America is terribly secular too, and that is an opinion.

God grant you many joyful years.

[charleseherring]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='31 March 2010 - 08:09 PM' timestamp='1270084147' post='2084439']
It actually is not so much of a hijack of your thread, because the topic is connected to the secondary question in relation to the consecration of Russia, that is, that if it was not done Russia will spread its errors, but that is not likely to happen. America is responsible for the spread of more moral error than Russia. It is our culture that is truly sick.

God bless.

As far as the main point of the thread is concerned . . . I agree with Nihil's original post.


[/quote]


i see your point, but, there has been no calls from mary to consecrate america to her so anything about how america is worse is a moot point

[Aloysius]

You don't have to call the Pope or the original visionary a liar to think it wasn't properly done. You simply have to suggest that they might be mistaken. I was never under the impression that Sister Lucia was in constant contact with Our Lady; it was her sense that she believed our lady's request had been fulfilled... but all she ever was was the messenger. To my knowledge, she never had a vision in which Our Lady said it had been fulfilled, so it was simply her personal opinion. Andf if it had been her request to consecrate russia, then by all means she could answer whether it was done as she wanted it to be done. but it wasn't, Our Lady asked her to ask the Pope to do it--as such, only Our Lady could really answer if the response was satisfactory.

The fact of the matter is they didn't simply and directly consecrate Russia. They consecrated the whole world including Russia. And the reason they didn't just get together and single out Russia--the country singled out by the message of Fatima itself--is because they were afraid of offending the communists and/or the Russian Orthodox. It is those motivations which make me think the consecration was not done in the full fidelity to the message that it could have been done in... and it doesn't make me a conspiracy nut to say that.

I was trying to think of a good analogy and I think this would be best... imagine you had done something wrong to someone and were told by a confessor to send them a note apologizing to them for it. Being clever, you decide to send a note to every single friend you have apologizing in general for anything you had ever done to them. did you fulfill the confessor's request? sure, but you covered it in enough ambiguity as to dillute the effectiveness of the action. so too, I believe with the consecration of the world, the Pope seriously dilluted the effectiveness of the action requested by Our Lady. it was meant to address a specific country because of a specific greviance we had with them, and yet we addressed the whole world for their general sinfulness... and that's why I don't think we'll really see a conversion of Russia as it ought to have been unless the consecration is done again, because we dilluted the effectiveness of the action by surrounding it by generalities. the consecration's not some magic formula for the conversion of russia, we're not casting a spell. though there are certainly aspects of Our Lady's intercessery power, I think that Our Lady wished the Church of Rome to take a stand against Russia in this spiritual way, and consecrating the world because of it's sinfulness doesn't exactly constitute the stand Our Lady wanted us to make. consecrating Russia because of her errors was the stand Our Lady was asking for.

now, the Church of Rome certainly stood up to Russia in many ways that led to the last fall of communism. but dark clouds are arising again in Russia, and the proscription of Our Lady for dealing with Russia when it spreads error around the world is to consecrate Russia to her. to consecrate just Russia, and to use that consecration to call out Russia on her errors; say that we are consecrating Russia to her Immaculate Heart because we are concerned by the errors it is spreading around the world.

and of course the debate only exists among those who believe in Fatima, because for those who don't (and it doesn't make them any less of a Catholic, they're free not to), it doesn't matter.

Edited April 1, 2010 by Aloysius

[tinytherese]

I remember making the mistake of getting involved with the Fatima Center, where they insist that the consecration hasn't been properly done. Their leader is excommunicated and the group is schismatic. It's like what St. Ignatius Loyola said about how you can discern something based off of it's fruits.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='31 March 2010 - 08:46 PM' timestamp='1270086376' post='2084462']
Do you believe in Fatima? You're not required to, but I don't really see any reason not to. If you do, it matters a lot.

[/quote]
Sure, I believe in Fatima. What I don't believe is the idea that what went on at Fatima is somehow pivotal or crucial to the Faith. If it were, it would be part of written or unwritten Tradition, which it is not. The elements which are crucial, such as prayer and penance, are contained in Tradition. That which is not is certainly good, as it was approved by the Church, but not necessary, as it is not part of the Deposit of Faith.
I view private revelations etc. the same way I view something such as corporal mortification or extraordinary fasting. It can certainly be good, and maybe some people need it for their own faith, but it need not be for everyone.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Socrates' date='31 March 2010 - 08:23 PM' timestamp='1270081402' post='2084421']
From my reading, these things are worse in Russia (and worse than in most other countries, for that matter).
I'm not saying things are wonderful in the U.S. - I just find your view of Russia unduly rosy.
Russia may have no way to go but up, however, while America is on the edge of a huge decline unless it radically changes direction.

Btw, the current embracing of socialism is blatantly unconstitutional.
[/quote]

Unfortunately, Russian has plenty of space left to fall.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='31 March 2010 - 08:40 PM' timestamp='1270082405' post='2084428']
Not rosy at all. Russia has its problems, but it is not going to be spreading those problems around the world. America is the real danger. It is the United States that is promoting hedonistic behavior and immorality, not Russia.[/QUOTE]

Russian culture has plenty of hedonism and immorality. It does spread it's immoral aspects around the world, from Russian women bought and sold in sexual slavery by the Russian Mafia around the world to it's liberal standards of to whom it sells Kalashnikovs and other military surplus. It's even been exporting it's own brand of post Soviet 'post-modern authoritarianism' that Putin has been perfecting. You want to adopt Eastern-Christian as your own and now you seem to be buying into Russian Orthodox slavophilia. Maybe you don't know the source of what you have bought into but it smacks of "Third Rome" nonsense. I love Dostoevsky but this nonsense should have died with him.

Два Рима пали. Третий стоит. И четвертому не быть!
Two Romes have fallen. The third stands. There will be no fourth!

[Hassan]

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='31 March 2010 - 09:46 PM' timestamp='1270086376' post='2084462']
There wasn't a single opinion in his post. Russia is terribly secular, and is among the most corrupt and immoral places on the globe.
[/quote]

Yes, you speak Russian and German right?
Он хочет, чтобы поцеловать святой русской земле я думаю. Достоевский мог бы гордиться. Как это ни печально его Россия жила лишь в умах идеалистов.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='31 March 2010 - 09:54 PM' timestamp='1270086841' post='2084471']
That is an opinion. America is terribly secular too, and that is an opinion.

God grant you many joyful years.
[/quote]

You despise relativism in every context except when invoking it gets you off the hook for making a bad argument.

It's not mere opinion. Americans are more religious devotional than Russians. That's not opinion, it's statistics. Even if half of the Americans who say they attend Church regularly are liars and every Russian who claims to attend Church at least once a month is speaking Gospel, Americans still stomp Russians.

I suspect, and this is merely an educated guess, that if you quizzed Americans and Russians on Catechism American would still trump Russians. Russian infidelity was coerced, but the communists have been out of power (including the infinitely more moderate Gorbachev regime) for almost two decades and Russian religiosity remains almost non-existent in terms of actual religious practice. Russians identify with the Russian Orthodox Church because culturally that is what it means to be Russian and it is intertwined with Russian nationalism (Stalin fell back to Russian nationalism during WWII, is it a coincidence this was when he gave leniency to the Church?). That doesn't mean Russians are actually faithful Christians. Kadyrov wears a skull cap and built Grozny a beautiful new Mosque, he's about as genuinely Muslim as you. Most Chechen call themselves Muslim, that doesn't mean they actually know how to pray. It's a part of the world where religion is often tied to nationalism. Dudayev went from bombing Mujahadeen in Afghanistan to ending his speeches with "Allahu Akbar" a few years later when he got infatuated with Chechen nationalism. Putin was a KGB officer in East Germany, suddenly he's wearing his grandmothers crucifix and giving favors to the Patriarch while riding a wave of Petrol cash and Russian nationalism. It's all smoke and mirrors.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='31 March 2010 - 05:24 PM' timestamp='1270077893' post='2084377']
The Blessed Mother asked for one thing, the Church did something like what she asked for but not what she asked. While she may have found what was done acceptable it would seem she would have liked what she asked for more. Since she was so direct and detailed about it when asking.

If Russia's errors were atheistic Communism/Socialism it's errors have seemed to spread very much indeed.
[/quote]

+1

[tinytherese]

What St. Collette told me in the past on the Q and A section. http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=84138&view=&hl=consecration%20of%20russia&fromsearch=1

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' date='31 March 2010 - 11:46 PM' timestamp='1270100776' post='2084665']
You despise relativism in every context except when invoking it gets you off the hook for making a bad argument.[/quote]
I despise relativism when talking about the morality of an action, but we are not talking about actions in the present case, even if you are too dense to understand the difference. In this case we are talking about opinions in connection with the state of affairs in two different countries, and both countries have their problems (e.g., acts of murder, fornication, prostitution, theft, etc.), while in both countries good things are also happening. Is Russia perfect? No. Is America perfect? No. Is Russia still an atheistic state? No. Is Russia one hundred percent Christian? No. But then neither is America. America is moving toward less and less freedom as federal power and debt increase, while at the same time American culture moves deeper into a post-Christian view of the world that borders on an anti-Christian position.

Edited April 2, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Hassan' date='31 March 2010 - 11:46 PM' timestamp='1270100776' post='2084665']
I suspect, and this is merely an educated guess, that if you quizzed Americans and Russians on Catechism American would still trump Russians.
[/quote]
I would call that an uneducated guess.

[brightsadness]

Yes. As in the blood of the Martyrs...

[Formosus]

[quote name='Hassan' date='01 April 2010 - 02:16 AM' timestamp='1270098972' post='2084638']
You want to adopt Eastern-Christian as your own and now you seem to be buying into Russian Orthodox slavophilia. Maybe you don't know the source of what you have bought into but it smacks of "Third Rome" nonsense. I love [b]Dostoevsky[/b] but this nonsense should have died with him.

Два Рима пали. Третий стоит. И четвертому не быть!
Two Romes have fallen. The third stands. There will be no fourth!
[/quote]


The "Three Romes" concept predates Dostoevsky by at least 200 years...

[Hassan]

[quote name='Formosus' date='07 April 2010 - 08:19 PM' timestamp='1270685983' post='2088807']
The "Three Romes" concept predates Dostoevsky by at least 200 years...
[/quote]

indeed it does. He was the most brilliant and last great true defender of it as a genuine theological concept. Which is why it should have died with him. It doesn't need to be resurrected by neo-slavophiles

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Formosus' date='07 April 2010 - 07:19 PM' timestamp='1270685983' post='2088807']
The "Three Romes" concept predates Dostoevsky by at least 200 years...
[/quote]

That doesn't make it any less ridiculous.

[Formosus]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='07 April 2010 - 09:39 PM' timestamp='1270687191' post='2088828']
That doesn't make it any less ridiculous.
[/quote]

I never said it was true. Personally I don't think the first two Romes have fallen and I don't see why Moscow should be considered the spiritual head of East-Slavic Christianity when Kyiv was its mother see. If anything, Kyiv is the Third Rome but perhaps I am a bit biased


To be more on topic. Fatima is a private revelation, its irrelevant whether or not Russia was properly consecrated. With that said, I do like Our Lady of Fatima and have a small statue of her in my apartment. : )

Edited April 8, 2010 by Formosus