Muslims Try To Pray In Spanish Cathedral

[Selah]

The fact that they tried to pray to Allah in a sacred place for Catholics to pray to Jesus is upsetting. Certain things you just don't do, in the name of respect and common decency. Hell, I assume my Hindu friend would be pretty annoyed at me if I barged into her temple and started praying the Our Father.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Saint Therese' date='11 April 2010 - 10:06 AM' timestamp='1270994792' post='2090906']
[i]Believers, when you encounter the infidels on the march, do notturn your backs to them in flight. If anyone on that day turns his backto them, except it be for tactical reasons...he shall incur the wrath ofGod and Hell shall be his home..." (Surah 8:12-)[/i][i]"Make war on them until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shallreign supreme." (Surah 8:36-)[/i]

[i]"If you fear treachery from any of your allies, you may fairly retaliateby breaking off your treaty with them." (Surah 8:51-)[/i]

[i]"...make war on the leaders of unbelief...Make war on them: God willchastise them at your hands and humble them. He will grant you victoryover them..." (Surah 9:12-)[/i]

[b][i]"It ill becomes the idolaters [non-Muslims] to visit the mosquesof God..." (Surah 9:17)[/i][/b]

[i]"Fight against such as those to whom the Scriptures were given [Jewsand Christians]...until they pay tribute out of hand and are utterly subdued."(Surah 9:27-)[/i]

[i]"It is He who has sent forth His apostle with guidance and the trueFaith [Islam] to make it triumphant over all religions, however much theidolaters [non-Muslims] may dislike it." (Surah 9:31-)[/i]

[i]"If you do not fight, He will punish you sternly, and replace youby other men." (Surah 9:37-)[/i]

[i]"Prophet make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and dealrigorously with them. Hell shall be their home." (Surah 9:73)[/i]

[i]"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Deal firmlywith them." (Surah 9:121-)[/i]

[i]"Muhammad is God's apostle. Those who follow him are ruthless tothe unbelievers but merciful to one another." (Surah 48:29)[/i]

[i]"Seek out your enemies relentlessly." (Surah 4:103-)[/i][i]
[/i][i]
[/i]
[/quote]
You don't know Arabic, so those quotes are meaningless.

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='10 April 2010 - 06:21 PM' timestamp='1270938089' post='2090639']
Islamic prayers:[/quote]
You don't know Arabic, so those quotes are meaningless.

[quote]Clearly these people are blood thirsty and violent.
Clearly they worship the Devil.
Clearly Almighty God would be filled with wrath and displeasure, should any of these prayers be addressed to Him by a Muslim in a Catholic Cathedral.

The problem these days is the incivility of people. Muslims are guests in a Catholic church, and so you'd think they'd be extremely considerate, being careful to treat the situation very delicately, and not burden their hosts with any unnecessary requests. Christians, you'd think, would be striving to make their guests feel welcome and comfortable, anticipating their needs and fulfilling them as far as they possibly can.

But civility is a lost art these days. And so to avoid being taken advantage of, hosts and guests act like perfect pigs.

Oh well.
[/quote]
Muslims are more than welcome to quietly and respectfully sit in the pews during the mass or other prayers. They are also welcome to join in the Christian prayer if the Spirit so moves them.

But it should go without saying that the ceremonies of a false apostate religion that denies Christ have no place in a building consecrated to the Most Holy Sacrifice of Christ's Mass and other sacred Christian worship.

That has nothing to do with civility, but with giving places consecrated to Christ due honor.
We're talking about a cathedral here, not a beaver dam bed-and-breakfast!

(And I think Muslims understand this concept. You can bet your burka they wouldn't be down with a mass being celebrated in a mosque.)

[quote]You know the Episcopalian cathedral here has a sign out that says "All are Welcome."
[/quote]
Too bad we can't be like those wonderful enlightened Episcopalians!
Then we could host a groovy Interfaith Christian/Muslim/Buddhist/Wiccan/Neo-Odinist hoe-down!

Edited April 11, 2010 by Socrates

[Winchester]

friggin buttons. Accidental -.

[Lilllabettt]

[quote]You don't know Arabic, so those quotes are meaningless.[/quote]

Why are you assuming I don't know Arabic? I study the Middle East. They speak Arabic there. And French, in the Maghreb.



[quote]Too bad we can't be like those wonderful enlightened Episcopalians![/quote]

So now we are dumping on Muslims [u]and[/u] Episcopalians. Wow. Some time we have got to get that list of religions Catholics hate alphabetized.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='11 April 2010 - 10:46 AM' timestamp='1270997192' post='2090931']
i think the key words are those who try with their hearts "to seek GOD with a sincere heart, moved by grace, and try in their actions to do His will...may achieve salvation...."
where in islam are these points taught???

also, the Pope asks us to "keep exploring" each other's religions...for a better understanding of each other, and for better relations...i think few muslims respect us...and this story proves that...

and the more I learn and research and read about islam, the more i hate what i see...now don't misunderstand me...i don't hate muslims...and it looks like the Pope and catechism are [i]reflecting on the persons[/i], [i]not the religion[/i]...

also, Pope John Paul and the Catholic Church teaches that anything that proposes murdering those who don't believe the way we do is not lawful or just...so...why would they justify another "religion's" belief to do just that as lawful and worthy of our respect???
[/quote]

Yes. I also fail to see how the words of Pope John Paul II hold more weight than the violent writings in Islamic holy texts and the example set by Muhammad.

[Laudate_Dominum]

Love your enemies. Return good for evil. I saw the essential meaning of the quotes as having to do with this. Also of resisting unchristian attitudes of hostility, vindictiveness and finger pointing.

[IMG]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/variosity/agca.jpg[/IMG]

That dude shot and nearly killed Pope John Paul II. John Paul II forgave him and even worked to have him pardoned and released.

[i]But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you.[/i]

Wouldn't it be neat if such things characterized the general behavior of Christians in the world? I like to daydream about this at least.

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='11 April 2010 - 06:30 PM' timestamp='1271021436' post='2091109']
Yes. I also fail to see how the words of Pope John Paul II hold more weight than the violent writings in Islamic holy texts and the example set by Muhammad.
[/quote]


Um ... because he's the Pope. And knows a lot about religion, and junk. But you know something he doesn't, right?

I don't think Muslims should pray in a Catholic cathedral.

It's really rude of them to even ask, let alone insist

But its equally rude for Catholics to say "no way! You worship Satan!" etc.

How about "I'm sorry, but that is not our custom, please understand; can we help you find someplace more suitable, etc."

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='11 April 2010 - 05:41 PM' timestamp='1271022112' post='2091113']
Love your enemies. Return good for evil. I saw the essential meaning of the quotes as having to do with this. Also of resisting unchristian attitudes of hostility, vindictiveness and finger pointing.

[IMG]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/variosity/agca.jpg[/IMG]

That dude shot and nearly killed Pope John Paul II. John Paul II forgave him and even worked to have him pardoned and released.

[i]But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you.[/i]

Wouldn't it be neat if such things characterized the general behavior of Christians in the world? I like to daydream about this at least.
[/quote]

Speaking in general here,

We are called to love our enemies, but we are not called to be naive. Nor does God expect us to ignore evil for fear of offending others. I used to look at the world through rose-colored glasses up until a couple of years ago. Reality is reality.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='11 April 2010 - 03:41 PM' timestamp='1271022112' post='2091113']
Love your enemies. Return good for evil. I saw the essential meaning of the quotes as having to do with this. Also of resisting unchristian attitudes of hostility, vindictiveness and finger pointing.

[IMG]http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h119/NoonienSoong_2006/variosity/agca.jpg[/IMG]

That dude shot and nearly killed Pope John Paul II. John Paul II forgave him and even worked to have him pardoned and released.

[i]But I say to you, Love your enemies: do good to them that hate you: and pray for them that persecute and calumniate you.[/i]

Wouldn't it be neat if such things characterized the general behavior of Christians in the world? I like to daydream about this at least.
[/quote]
Yes . . . Christ told us to forgive those who harm us, but that is not the same thing as allowing idolatrous worship in a building consecrated to adoration of the Holy Trinity.

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='11 April 2010 - 05:42 PM' timestamp='1271022124' post='2091114']
Um ... because he's the Pope. And knows a lot about religion, and junk. But you know something he doesn't, right?[/quote]

When it comes to Islam, I tend to look at Islam.

[quote] I don't think Muslims should pray in a Catholic cathedral.

It's really rude of them to even ask, let alone insist

But its equally rude for Catholics to say "no way! You worship Satan!" etc.

How about "I'm sorry, but that is not our custom, please understand; can we help you find someplace more suitable, etc."
[/quote]

Is it also rude to tell a pagan that they are worshiping the Devil, even if they do not realize it?

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='11 April 2010 - 06:49 PM' timestamp='1271022554' post='2091119']
Is it also rude to tell a pagan that they are worshiping the Devil, even if they do not realize it?
[/quote]


If you bump into a bunch of Muslims on the street, or in a cathedral, or anywhere casual like that,
yeah, its rude and uncalled for for you to tell them you think they worship the Devil.

If you are sitting down with a group of Muslims to have an intellectual discussion/debate about religion and you mention as part of your larger argument, your views about the possiblity that Mohammad's experiences were supernatural but not from God, then ..... no, it would okay for you to tell them. Although saying they are "devil worshipers" would be over the top, I think.

See the difference? One is a confrontational, aggressive "ambush," while the other is an exchange of views in an atmosphere of mutual respect where each side is prepared to address each other's salvos.

Edited April 11, 2010 by Lilllabettt

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='11 April 2010 - 05:57 PM' timestamp='1271023077' post='2091127']
If you bump into a bunch of Muslims on the street, or in a cathedral, or anywhere casual like that,
yeah, its rude and uncalled for for you to tell them you think they worship the Devil.

If you are sitting down with a group of Muslims to have an intellectual discussion/debate about religion and you mention as part of your larger argument, your views about the possiblity that Mohammad's experiences were supernatural but not from God, then ..... no, it would okay for you to tell them. Although saying they are "devil worshipers" would be over the top, I think.

See the difference? One is a confrontational, aggressive "ambush," while the other is an exchange of views in an atmosphere of mutual respect where each side is prepared to address each other's salvos.
[/quote]

I would hope that everyone here knows the meaning of "common sense" and uses it on a day to day basis.

[Lilllabettt]

Alas, common sense is no longer common.

Among Christians, Muslims or Jews.

Which is why you have this story happening in the first place.

[Socrates]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' date='11 April 2010 - 05:27 PM' timestamp='1271021273' post='2091106']
Why are you assuming I don't know Arabic?[/quote]
Probably because you weren't wearing a burka.

Defenders of Islam have informed me that one must know Arabic to interpret the Koran or other Islamic writings, and that English translations are worthless.

[quote]I study the Middle East. They speak Arabic there. And French, in the Maghreb.[/quote]
Outstanding. Perhaps you can use your expertise to correctly translate the Koran passages St. Therese provided.

[quote]So now we are dumping on Muslims [u]and[/u] Episcopalians. Wow. Some time we have got to get that list of religions Catholics hate alphabetized.
[/quote]
I've been dumping on Episcopalians for a long time.

Un-pc as it may be to say so, there's only One True Faith, and many false religions.

[HisChildForever]

Although anyone wishing to engage a Muslim in theological debate or conversation should be careful. You may get hauled off to court for religious discrimination.

[quote]A blow for free speech was struck by the courts yesterday as the case against two Christian hoteliers accused of insulting a Muslim guest was thrown out.

Ben and Sharon Vogelenzang were hauled into the dock after a white British convert to Islam complained they had called the prophet Mohammed 'a warlord' and told her that Muslim women were oppressed.

They saw their family-run business brought to its knees as they found themselves at the centre of an unprecedented investigation into what was deemed a religiously aggravated hate crime against 60-year-old Ericka Tazi.

But yesterday, after a prosecution costing some £20,000, their names were cleared as a judge said the case flew in the face of the right to freedom of religious expression. Christian groups said the decision to try the Vogelenzangs meant the couple faced becoming convicted criminals for standing up for their beliefs.[/quote]

Lawl moment,

[quote]What Mrs Tazi was probably unaware of is that the Vogelenzangs had adopted five children, of whom one was a Muslim, and had put their names forward to foster other Muslim youngsters.[/quote]

Hooray for peaceful protests,

[quote] Mike Judge, a spokesman for the Christian Institute, said: 'Important issues of religious freedom and free speech were at stake in this case. 'We have detected a worrying tendency in public bodies to misapply the law in a way that seems to sideline Christianity more than other faiths.

'People see the police standing by when Muslim demonstrators take to the streets in this country holding some pretty bloodthirsty placards, but at the same time come down hard on two Christians having a debate over breakfast.'[/quote]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1234680/It-victory-free-speech-did-breakfast-insult-Muslims-faith-case-come-court.html

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Socrates' date='11 April 2010 - 01:48 PM' timestamp='1271015295' post='2091047']
. . .

But it should go without saying that the ceremonies of a false apostate religion that denies Christ have no place in a building consecrated to the Most Holy Sacrifice of Christ's Mass and other sacred Christian worship.

That has nothing to do with civility, but with giving places consecrated to Christ due honor.
We're talking about a cathedral here, not a da[color="#000000"]m[/color]n bed-and-breakfast![/quote]
Well said! If a non-Christian ritual were to take place in a Church, the building in question - according to the teaching of the Eastern Fathers and the ritual books of the Byzantine Church (see [i]The Great Book of Needs[/i], volume 2) - would have to be reconsecrated to the right worship (ορθο δόξα) of the Triune God.

Edited April 11, 2010 by Apotheoun

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='Socrates' date='11 April 2010 - 07:02 PM' timestamp='1271023344' post='2091131']

Defenders of Islam have informed me that one must know Arabic to interpret the Koran or other Islamic writings, and that English translations are worthless.


Outstanding. Perhaps you can use your expertise to correctly translate the Koran passages St. Therese provided.
[/quote]


Muslims say that translating the Qur'an is like translating poetry; that it is in fact, impossible to do it justice in another language.

For non believers, doing the majesty of the text "justice" is less important than simple accuracy. For that, some translations are good, some are bad.


[quote]65:1 O Prophet, when you[and the believers] divorce women, divorce them for their prescribed waiting—period and count the waiting—period accurately . . . 4 And if you are in doubt about those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, (you should know that) their waiting period is three months, and the same applies to those who have not menstruated as yet. As for pregnant women, their period ends when they have delivered their burden.[/quote]

Let's look at these verses in context. Sura 65 is about divorce; not marriage. It revolves around determining whether or not a woman is pregnant. (It was against the law for a Muslim to divorce a pregnant woman.)

[b]if you are in doubt about those of your women who have despaired of menstruation, their waiting period is three months, and the same applies to those who have not menstruated as yet[/b]

If you think your wife is post-menopausal, wait 3 months anyway to see if she is pregnant.


The phrase "yet" here does not mean "yet, in her whole life," but "yet, in her regular monthly cycle." In other words, your wife's period is late. You should wait three months and see if she may be pregnant; after which point it will be obvious whether she is or she isn't.

If she isn't pregnant after 3 months, then she may be divorced. If she is pregnant, then she cannot be divorced until 3 months "after" her pregnancy (when its clear whether shes pregnant again or not.)

the entire context of the Sura indicates that its dealing with situations where a woman could have become pregnant ... a man married to a premenstrual girl would not have to worry about whether she as pregnant. Her situation would not be addressed in this section, which is about preventing the divorce of pregnant women.

Remember that part of the Bible where it says Mary did not have relations with her husband "until" she gave birth to Jesus? Well the "until" does not mean she had relations w/ her husband after she gave birth to Jesus. It's an archaic linguistic pattern.

Here's another translation of these verses which makes the meaning clearer to modern ears:

[quote]65:4 As for the women who have reached menopause, if you have any doubts, their interim shall be three months. As for those who do not menstruate, and discover that they are pregnant, their interim ends upon giving birth. Anyone who reverences GOD, He makes everything easy for him[/quote]

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='11 April 2010 - 06:46 PM' timestamp='1271022390' post='2091117']
Speaking in general here,

We are called to love our enemies, but we are not called to be naive. Nor does God expect us to ignore evil for fear of offending others. [i]I used to look at the world through rose-colored glasses up until a couple of years ago. Reality is reality.[/i]
[/quote]

Maybe this is why Christians and Catholics are in the situation we are in....

[HisChildForever]

So how do we know that your translation above is good?

[quote]the entire context of the Sura indicates that its dealing with situations where a woman could have become pregnant ... a man married to a premenstrual girl would not have to worry about whether she as pregnant. Her situation would not be addressed in this section, which is about preventing the divorce of pregnant women.[/quote]

Yes, and there is nothing wrong with marrying a pre-menstrual girl!

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='Saint Therese' date='11 April 2010 - 11:10 AM' timestamp='1270995043' post='2090911']
[indent]4:34 . . . [color="#ff0000"]If you fear highhandedness from your wives, remind them [of the teaching of God], then ignore them when you go to bed, [b]then hit them[/b]. If they obey you, you have no right to act against them. God is most high and great.[/color] (Haleem, emphasis added)

[/indent]
[/quote]


This is one of the more light-hearted verses in the Qur'an. I have been told it sometimes elicits chuckles when it is read. If you think your wife's being highhanded, remind her about the teaching of God. (In other words, nag her) if they still don't listen, ignore them in bed. (In other words, withhold sex.) "Then hit them." ooooo "hit them!" that's abuse, right?

No.

The "hit" here is properly translated ... "slap on the wrist." It is supposed to be a very slight physical correction. I have even seen it rendered "lightly spank." Have you ever seen a man or wife smack each other's backsides?

Edited April 11, 2010 by Lilllabettt