Is It Time To Lower The Drinking Age?

[havok579257]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='18 April 2010 - 01:06 AM' timestamp='1271567195' post='2095449']
For that matter, how about guns, ammunition, knives, heavy sticks, machetes, and crowbars?
[/quote]


guns, except in the case of military and police, i can agree with. also excluding hunters who actually use guns to hunt their own food. someone who without a gun would starve because they are unable to hunt for thier food. without guns, you dont need ammunition.

knifes- depends what kind your talking about. if its a basic knife used for your food or for some form of construction, then no it should not be illegal. the benifts of knives out weigh the amount of death that happen by them.

machetes- absolutly, unless you live in the jungle. what do you need one for except for killing or traveling in the jungle.

crowbars- same as the knives. the benifits of the crowbar outweigh the deaths from it.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='havok579257' date='18 April 2010 - 12:11 AM' timestamp='1271567489' post='2095451']
guns, except in the case of military and police, i can agree with. also excluding hunters who actually use guns to hunt their own food. someone who without a gun would starve because they are unable to hunt for thier food. without guns, you dont need ammunition.

knifes- depends what kind your talking about. if its a basic knife used for your food or for some form of construction, then no it should not be illegal. the benifts of knives out weigh the amount of death that happen by them.

machetes- absolutly, unless you live in the jungle. what do you need one for except for killing or traveling in the jungle.

crowbars- same as the knives. the benifits of the crowbar outweigh the deaths from it.
[/quote]
So all weapons should be illegal? I don't think you can get much support for that ...uh......... anywhere outside of Mennonite colonies, basically (and yes, I'm being glib).

[havok579257]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='18 April 2010 - 01:14 AM' timestamp='1271567654' post='2095452']
So all weapons should be illegal? I don't think you can get much support for that ...uh......... anywhere outside of Mennonite colonies, basically (and yes, I'm being glib).
[/quote]


not all weapons should be illegal, since almost anything can become a weapon. although in my mind, if the weapon's use outweighs the deaths it will cause, then its worth keeping around.

i don't really care if i get support on this or not. we alll know the amounts of deaths we have from most weapons. i don;t believe having the right to a gun is more important than the amount of lives that would be saved if we made all guns illgeal.

[dominicansoul]

we need to go back to the days when we lived in caves, and men dragged their women by the hair and only used sharp objects to hunt dinosaurs for dinner

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='dominicansoul' date='18 April 2010 - 12:20 AM' timestamp='1271568044' post='2095459']
we need to go back to the days when we lived in caves, and men dragged their women by the hair and only used sharp objects to hunt dinosaurs for dinner
[/quote]
I want to ride a wooly mammoth into battle, k? I'm sure that won't be a problem.

[Hassan]

[quote name='SaintOfVirtue' date='12 April 2010 - 10:20 PM' timestamp='1271125228' post='2092175']
. [b] It keeps minors from drinking irresponsibly[/b], and if they lower the drinking age I think you will see the number of DUI's involving minors go up.
[/quote]


No it doesn't. Maybe UNC is an exception and the drinking age works great at every other college/place with lots of young people, but the drinking age in my view encourages binge drinking (since you can only drink at intermittent opportunities people tend to overdo it) and discourages people calling for medical help if someone does over drink for fear that the individual will have their life screwed up through penalties imposed by the school system and a criminal record.

Young adults are going to drink. If Iran and its system of religious police cannot stop it, I doubt the US can. They need to adopt drinking laws to reality rather than imposing ever more asinine measures to posture to constituents.

[Hassan]

I would liberalize drinking laws considerably, but add much, much harsher penalties for drunk driving.

[Hassan]

I would also break the government control of hard liquor. ABC stores are a good theory, but the practice is that liquor stores come to be located in bad neighborhoods. My hometown has at least 2 ABC stores in it. That along with the tobacco stores, Western Unions and Pawn shops signal that it is deteriorating. Chapel Hill on the other hand has no ABC stores in it. Why? I guess the general population is to uppity to allow such 'low class' stores near by. Although God knows they'd get a lot of business from having one nearby. I dream of the day I can buy vodka from Walgreens, rather than wait for friends with cars to make runs to the ABC store.

[Innocent]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='13 April 2010 - 12:33 AM' timestamp='1271095404' post='2091594']
+JMJ+
[url="http://biggovernment.com/ngillespie/2010/04/07/reason-tv-21-is-it-time-to-lower-the-drinking-age/"]From Reason TV:[/url]

...

Today, we all take the drinking age for granted, but should we? In fact, [b]the US is one of only four countries in the world with a drinking age as high as 21[/b]—the other three are Indonesia, Mongolia and Palau.
...
...
[/quote]

Actually, there are some places with an even higher Legal Drinking Age. For example, in the capital city of India, the legal drinking age is 25.

[quote]"There had been opposition from Cabinet members for reducing the age, nobody has accepted the age of 18. Hence, the age for drinking remains as 25," said state finance minister Dr A K Walia adding, "The cabinet felt youngsters should not be encouraged to drink." [/quote][url="http://www.indianwineacademy.com/item_4_217.aspx"]SOURCE[/url]


[quote name='MIkolbe' date='13 April 2010 - 03:31 AM' timestamp='1271106070' post='2091821']
the drinking age should be raised to 25
[/quote]

See above.

Edited April 19, 2010 by Innocent

[Cherie]

I'm too lazy to go back and read all the posts

But this is an issue I feel very strongly about. I definitely believe the legal drinking age should be lowered in this country. In the USA, you can give your life for your country, but you can't have a glass of wine? That simply doesn't make sense.

This is an interesting article: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35079-2004Dec29.html

Basically, there are two points I'd like to point out. 1) The USA is a country in which every kid has to have a car at 16 - our materialistic society promotes that heavily. In Europe, (specifically France) they have very strict driving tests, and many young adults wait until 18-21 before they get their drivers' license. Interesting perspective, in my opinion, and not a half bad idea. (Of course that also leads to the problem in France of un-licensed drivers, but that's a different story) 2) The well-known argument that lowering the drinking age demystifies drinking, so by the time a person is driving, they are more responsible about their consumption of alcohol, and it's not something they do "just for kicks".

It seems, too, that the problem of drunk driving in Europe is not so much with the 18-20 year-olds, but with 21-24 year olds ... which would be the same age range of the problems in the US. So perhaps it's not the alcohol that is the main problem, it's immature 21-24 year olds.

[Totus Tuus]

Yes, I think the drinking age in America is illogical. I think the main problem, though, is that parents adopt the legal drinking age for their own kids. If parents were teaching their kids to drink responsibly at home before they were twenty-one (which is a legal practice in almost every state, as far as I know), most of them wouldn't binge drink out of curiosity the weekend they moved out of the house (which is normally at 18).

I always used to drink wine with my mom starting at about the age of 15. I never had the urge to binge drink... ever... though I recognize that everyone is different (I don't think binge drinking would do anything for me, though, seeing as I can have three drinks in an hour and not even be buzzed)

I believe this should be done by parents UNLESS you have alcoholism in your family. It is a gene that can be triggered very early if exposed to alcohol at a young age (any age, really).

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Hassan' date='19 April 2010 - 09:52 AM' timestamp='1271667136' post='2096054']
No it doesn't. Maybe UNC is an exception and the drinking age works great at every other college/place with lots of young people, but the drinking age in my view encourages binge drinking (since you can only drink at intermittent opportunities people tend to overdo it) and discourages people calling for medical help if someone does over drink for fear that the individual will have their life screwed up through penalties imposed by the school system and a criminal record.

Young adults are going to drink. If Iran and its system of religious police cannot stop it, I doubt the US can. They need to adopt drinking laws to reality rather than imposing ever more asinine measures to posture to constituents.
[/quote]
If UNC is an exception, then so was my uni. Not campus-wide, perhaps, but binge drinking definitely happened at times.

[quote name='Hassan' date='19 April 2010 - 09:57 AM' timestamp='1271667452' post='2096058']
I would liberalize drinking laws considerably, but add much, much harsher penalties for drunk driving.
[/quote]
Having better public transport in the US would also help a lot.

[quote name='Totus Tuus' date='19 April 2010 - 12:09 PM' timestamp='1271675393' post='2096112']
Yes, I think the drinking age in America is illogical. I think the main problem, though, is that parents adopt the legal drinking age for their own kids. If parents were teaching their kids to drink responsibly at home before they were twenty-one (which is a legal practice in almost every state, as far as I know), most of them wouldn't binge drink out of curiosity the weekend they moved out of the house (which is normally at 18).

I always used to drink wine with my mom starting at about the age of 15. I never had the urge to binge drink... ever... though I recognize that everyone is different (I don't think binge drinking would do anything for me, though, seeing as I can have three drinks in an hour and not even be buzzed)

I believe this should be done by parents UNLESS you have alcoholism in your family. It is a gene that can be triggered very early if exposed to alcohol at a young age (any age, really).
[/quote]
Certainly worked for me. I think my dad wanted to be sure we didn't fall into the same mindset that he and his brother did. Their parents were very anti-alcohol, so there was this mystique about it for them, and my uncle became an alcoholic. My dad perhaps would have had my mother's dad not taught him to drink responsibly. So with us my parents were open about it, and allowed us to have wine at dinner at 13 or so, and none of us have really had issues with alcohol. In my view, it's just a drink, one I happen to enjoy.

[Hassan]

[quote name='Totus Tuus' date='19 April 2010 - 07:09 AM' timestamp='1271675393' post='2096112']
Yes, I think the drinking age in America is illogical. I think the main problem, though, is that parents adopt the legal drinking age for their own kids. If parents were teaching their kids to drink responsibly at home before they were twenty-one (which is a legal practice in almost every state, as far as I know), most of them wouldn't binge drink out of curiosity the weekend they moved out of the house (which is normally at 18).

I always used to drink wine with my mom starting at about the age of 15. I never had the urge to binge drink... ever... though I recognize that everyone is different (I don't think binge drinking would do anything for me, though, seeing as I can have three drinks in an hour and not even be buzzed)

I believe this should be done by parents UNLESS you have alcoholism in your family. It is a gene that can be triggered very early if exposed to alcohol at a young age (any age, really).
[/quote]

Yeah. At the university level there is room for improvement as well. RA's have curfew rules and all sorts of other restrictions and expectations that would encourage people who party, drink seriously or really engage in any 'nefarious' activities to not want to be involved. The result, in my experience, is that many of the people who are RA's and tasked by the school with helping first year students navigate the party scene safely through the talks they give at the beginning of the year, really don't know what they are talking about. The people who instructed my dorm now were two RAs I like very much, one being a good friend. He is the head of an Asian Christian student group and the other RA is a devout Mormon. Neither really had any experience and it showed with the mistaken advice they gave. They warned about the dangers of PJ (party juice) being spiked with something other than alcohol. Any female student should be on the watch for some creep trying to slip something in her drink, but the communal juice that the frat puts out for everybody is not where the drug would be put in, for obvious reasons. She should be guarding her individual drink, not worrying about the PJ having something in it ahead of time. They are good RA's but seriously the wrong people to be giving that talk.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='18 April 2010 - 12:04 AM' timestamp='1271567084' post='2095445']
How many innocent people would be alive today if cars, fast food, and cigarettes, hydrogenated vegetable oil, and high fructose corn syrup were illegal? I don't want to ban any of those either.
[/quote]

Ever since my mom "went organic" she has admonished me to avoid hydrogenated vegetable oil.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='19 April 2010 - 05:26 PM' timestamp='1271715980' post='2096422']
Ever since my mom "went organic" she has admonished me to avoid hydrogenated vegetable oil.
[/quote]
I hear it's pretty gross for the body. I don't eat much food that's particularly processed to begin with, so it's not really something I worry about.

[Socrates]

[quote name='havok579257' date='18 April 2010 - 01:11 AM' timestamp='1271567489' post='2095451']
guns, except in the case of military and police, i can agree with. also excluding hunters who actually use guns to hunt their own food. someone who without a gun would starve because they are unable to hunt for thier food. without guns, you dont need ammunition.

knifes- depends what kind your talking about. if its a basic knife used for your food or for some form of construction, then no it should not be illegal. the benifts of knives out weigh the amount of death that happen by them.

machetes- absolutly, unless you live in the jungle. what do you need one for except for killing or traveling in the jungle.

crowbars- same as the knives. the benifits of the crowbar outweigh the deaths from it.
[/quote]
Sounds like you advocate a kind of totalitarian "nanny state."

Besides hunting, guns can be used for legitimate self-defense and defense of family from aggressors. Guns can save lives as well as take them. The second amendment wasn't about hunting, but about the right of citizens of a free society to self-defense.

Do you really think it's the place of the government to determine whether the benefit of each and every piece of equipment or tool we own outweighs it's possible dangers? Sounds more like some kind of communist police-state than a free society.

I own a machete, but have never hurt anybody with it. I have used it to help clear woodland trails, even though I lived far from "the jungle." It's not the business of government to determine whether my potential uses for it would be "good enough" though.
Once a government starts restricting ownership of knives and other tools, it has gone beyond tyrannical.


As to the original topic, I honestly don't think changing the legal drinking age will have any real effect one way or the other. From what I've seen laws against underage drinking have done little to prevent underage drunkenness.

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='Socrates' date='20 April 2010 - 01:12 AM' timestamp='1271722345' post='2096481']
I own a machete, but have never hurt anybody with it. I have used it to help clear woodland trails, even though I lived far from "the jungle." It's not the business of government to determine whether my potential uses for it would be "good enough" though.
Once a government starts restricting ownership of knives and other tools, it has gone beyond tyrannical.


As to the original topic, I honestly don't think changing the legal drinking age will have any real effect one way or the other. From what I've seen laws against underage drinking have done little to prevent underage drunkenness.
[/quote]
Machetes come in handy in archaeology, too. Or at least I was thankful one of the people on the dig had one when I was digging in FL.

I do think you have a point that simply changing the law might not affect much actual change - cultural attitudes need to change for that to happen. I still would like the drinking age lowered, but that's me. Not that it would affect me since I'm over 21 anyway.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='havok579257' date='17 April 2010 - 12:01 PM' timestamp='1271520100' post='2095116']
i am all for making alcohol illegal if it means it can save millions of life. call me puritan if you want, i perfer to be called pro-life. this is an easy way to save millions of people, millions of them being completely innocent people hit by drunk drivers. its completely selfish not want to make alcohol illegal when it could and would and is guarentted to save millions of lives. i am more than willing to sacrifice the ability to use a drug so that millions of people can be saved.
[/quote]
Are you saying that MILLIONS of people are being hit by drunk drivers in this country? MILLIONS?? Don't get me wrong, I think drunk driving is horrible and, as a mom, I worry about it-- a LOT. Unfortunately, making alcohol illegal will not stop drunk driving. Drunk driving is already illegal and people still do it. Banning alcohol will just create a black market for it. We tried prohibition here once-- it was an abysmal failure.

[havok579257]

[quote name='homeschoolmom' date='20 April 2010 - 07:49 AM' timestamp='1271764197' post='2096722']
Are you saying that MILLIONS of people are being hit by drunk drivers in this country? MILLIONS?? Don't get me wrong, I think drunk driving is horrible and, as a mom, I worry about it-- a LOT. Unfortunately, making alcohol illegal will not stop drunk driving. Drunk driving is already illegal and people still do it. Banning alcohol will just create a black market for it. We tried prohibition here once-- it was an abysmal failure.
[/quote]


i don't consider drunk driving to be anymore illegal than jay walking. people can get up to 9 dui's and still be driving a year or 2 later. is that what you would call strict rules.

making alcohol illegal will drastically reduce the number of drunk drivers. just was making pot, cocaine, lsd and so on legal will mean more people will end up using the drug. by being illegal, it makes it harder to come by. sure, the addicts can get it and they will, but the average person will not be able to get it. which greatly reduces the number of dui's.

[havok579257]

[quote name='Socrates' date='19 April 2010 - 08:12 PM' timestamp='1271722345' post='2096481']
Sounds like you advocate a kind of totalitarian "nanny state."

Besides hunting, guns can be used for legitimate self-defense and defense of family from aggressors. Guns can save lives as well as take them. The second amendment wasn't about hunting, but about the right of citizens of a free society to self-defense.

Do you really think it's the place of the government to determine whether the benefit of each and every piece of equipment or tool we own outweighs it's possible dangers? Sounds more like some kind of communist police-state than a free society.

I own a machete, but have never hurt anybody with it. I have used it to help clear woodland trails, even though I lived far from "the jungle." It's not the business of government to determine whether my potential uses for it would be "good enough" though.
Once a government starts restricting ownership of knives and other tools, it has gone beyond tyrannical.


As to the original topic, I honestly don't think changing the legal drinking age will have any real effect one way or the other. From what I've seen laws against underage drinking have done little to prevent underage drunkenness.
[/quote]


so now someone who wants weapon reduction wants a nany state. i guess people who don't want a nanny state want every person have access to rocket launchers and wmd's. this point is unitelligent.

yes, but making guns illegal greatly reduces the number of guns and limits the number of times someone would need them.

and here you are again spewing liberal rhetoric. i said one thing and your twisting words to try and make your arguement. i believe its the role of the government to keep their people safe and provide them with the oppertunities to fullfill thier dreams. reducing guns and making them illegal will work to better keep society safe. unless your really going to tell me, if we drastically reduced guns and weapons, more people would die.