Saturday Afternoon And Evening Masses A No-No

[tinytherese]

Is this really true? How do you know if you're going for a valid reason or not? I'm not sure how we can get people who consistently go on saturday to go on sunday. I know that I've had heated arguements at home about this topic with my dad. Mom has pulled me to the side and told me to be grateful that dad even wants to go to mass at all.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='tinytherese' date='24 April 2010 - 12:49 PM' timestamp='1272131391' post='2099256']
Is this really true? How do you know if you're going for a valid reason or not? I'm not sure how we can get people who consistently go on saturday to go on sunday. I know that I've had heated arguements at home about this topic with my dad. Mom has pulled me to the side and told me to be grateful that dad even wants to go to mass at all.
[/quote]

According to the Code of Canon Law, "A person who assists at a Mass celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass." (CIC, can. 1248 §1)

I am not a fan of Saturday evening Masses, but, canonically speaking, any Catholic is able to fulfill his obligation by attending one.

[Nihil Obstat]

Here's one look at it from a source I found.

[quote] Question: What do you say about Saturday evening Masses? I have seen them scheduled as early as 4 PM! Is there a hint of Old Law custom at work here?

Answer: Until the 1950s any form of evening Mass was unusual. The 1917 Code of Canon Law allowed the celebration of Mass to begin only from an hour before dawn until an hour after noon; the only canonical exception being the Midnight Mass of Christmas.[4] Obviously the Last Supper took place in the evening, a practice followed in the early Church. The Acts of the Apostles describes a Sunday Mass lasting at least until midnight.[5] (One of the participants fell asleep and fell out a third floor window—perhaps a good reason for Mass at an earlier hour!) Paul’s admonition to the Corinthians about the factions caused by the contrast in the food eaten by the rich and by the poor—“Have you not houses for your eating and drinking”—may have prompted an earlier time for Mass.[6] Tertullian wrote (c. 206) “We take also, in congregations before daybreak, and from the hand of none but the presidents, the sacrament of the Eucharist....”[7] Saint Cyprian of Carthage (d. 258) wrote: “we celebrate the resurrection of the Lord in the morning.[8]”

About AD 400, Saint Augustine described the fast before Holy Communion: “it pleased the Holy Spirit to appoint, for the honor of so great a sacrament, that the body of the Lord should take the precedence of all other food entering the mouth of a Christian; and it is for this reason that the custom referred to is universally observed.”[9] Consequently Mass is celebrated at an early hour.

According to the traditional Roman Missal, before the 50s, the Vigils of Easter and Pentecost began after the hour of None—canonically about 3 PM, but often earlier in practice. It wasn’t until the 50s that the Easter Vigil, with its beautiful references to night and darkness dissipated by fire and the light of the paschal candle, was moved so that Mass might start “around midnight.” But Easter and Christmas were unusual events. Hopefully, their special nature inspired a spiritual awe in those who attended.

The idea of an early evening vigil Mass, satisfying one’s obligation to attend Mass on all Sundays and feast days is a modern innovation. Yet, even this is based on the Church’s custom of beginning such days with “First Vespers” at sundown on the preceding day. There may be a touch of the “Old Law” in this, the Jewish day began with sundown—however the canonical observance of Sundays and feasts doesn’t end until midnight, making such days about thirty hours long. 4 PM does sound a bit early for a Mass that is to follow the hour of Vespers which begins at sundown.

Perhaps the most important question to be asked is whether or not this innovation (and others like it) serve the good of souls. The early twentieth century was the culmination of a period of significant missionary activity that went back a few centuries. Even with modern communications and transportation, the Church looked for ways to make the efforts of the missionaries more fruitful. Perhaps we should allow Mass to be adapted to the cultures of Africa and Asia, so different from Rome and the West? And what can we do in places where the same priest must offer Mass in several communities served by only by river boat? What about the Sacraments for people who must go weeks or even months without seeing a priest?

One can see a certain logic in allowing the priest to offer Mass after First Vespers on Saturday, so he can catch the river boat to the next settlement. He might even be allowed to give general absolution on those occasions when the boat will visit and leave very quickly. One might even admit the possibility of having the village catechist—a trusted and well educated layman or religious brother—reserve Holy Communion for the sick who might otherwise die without It, and perform Baptisms and canonical marriages for those unable to wait for the priest’s semi-annual visit. But the operative idea in all of these possibilities is that they might be justified only if they truly served the good of souls.

One cannot equate the needs of people living in large modern Western cities with those of the people living along our hypothetical African river. One simply cannot claim that people growing up in Paris, Buenos Aires, New York, or (a fortiori) Rome have any reason to be alien to the culture of the Roman Rite! The catechist is rarely or never required to do the sacramental work of the ordained clergy. The fellow who wants to sleep late or play golf on Sunday morning has nothing like the spiritual need of the people along the river. The idea of a “get it over Mass” is an abomination which ought not be countenanced.

Yes, there are people who must work on Sundays. There number would be considerably smaller if Christians refrained from elective commerce on Sundays—there are six other days on which one can shop, go to the library, or take in a movie. Traditionally, there is a 5:45 AM Mass, and in modern times, one at 7:00 PM—and, yes, you can come in your work uniform.

Something is radically wrong when the obituaries can praise someone for being a “staunch Catholic who went to Mass every Saturday.”

[4] Canon 821.

[5] Acts xx: 7-12.

[6] I Corinthians xi: 17-22.

[7] Tertullian, de Corona, ch. 3 www.newadvent.org/fathers/0304.htm

[8] Episrle to Cæcilius, lxiii (or lxii) www.newadvent.org/fathers/050662.htm

[9] Letter LIV to Januarius, para.8. www.newadvent.org/fathers/1102054.htm[/quote]
[url="http://www.rosarychurch.net/answers/qa042008.html"]My link[/url]

[cmotherofpirl]

"Yes, there are people who must work on Sundays. There number would be considerably smaller if Christians refrained from elective commerce on Sundays—there are six other days on which one can shop, go to the library, or take in a movie. Traditionally, there is a 5:45 AM Mass, and in modern times, one at 7:00 PM—and, yes, you can come in your work uniform."

MANY people are required to work weekends, especially areas with medical centers, manufacturing centers or large service industries: most places do not differentiate between weekdays and weekends in scheduling their employees. My neighbor actually had patients who scheduled mammograms on Christmas day.
I don't any churches that offer weekend Masses as mentioned in the OP at 5:45A Sunday morning, and I think there is only one in the area with a Sunday evening Mass. high school and college kids have ann especially rough time since the weekend is usually the only time they can get a lot of hours into make money to help pay for school.

[Oik]

A Ukrainian Greek Catholic Priest said to me once, "One Chalice, One Liturgy."

[Bennn]

I would feel bad if I went to an anticipation Mass without going to the actual Sunday Mass if I wouldn't have a serious reason for it. Resurrexi seems to have proven that it would fulfill the sunday obligation, but I still don't think it's praiseworthy to do this simply out of inconvenience, rather than out of necessity. If we understood what the Mass truly is, we would never find it 'inconvenient'. We would probably cry if we couldn't go everyday then.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Bennn' date='26 April 2010 - 08:24 AM' timestamp='1272295451' post='2100304']
I would feel bad if I went to an anticipation Mass without going to the actual Sunday Mass if I wouldn't have a serious reason for it. Resurrexi seems to have proven that it would fulfill the sunday obligation, but I still don't think it's praiseworthy to do this simply out of inconvenience, rather than out of necessity. [b]If we understood what the Mass truly is, we would never find it 'inconvenient'. We would probably cry if we couldn't go everyday then.[/b]
[/quote]
+JMJ+
baloney

[aalpha1989]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='26 April 2010 - 12:46 PM' timestamp='1272300364' post='2100371']
+JMJ+
baloney
[/quote]

roast beef.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='25 April 2010 - 11:09 PM' timestamp='1272254947' post='2100151']
"Yes, there are people who must work on Sundays. There number would be considerably smaller if Christians refrained from elective commerce on Sundays—there are six other days on which one can shop, go to the library, or take in a movie. Traditionally, there is a 5:45 AM Mass, and in modern times, one at 7:00 PM—and, yes, you can come in your work uniform."

MANY people are required to work weekends, especially areas with medical centers, manufacturing centers or large service industries: most places do not differentiate between weekdays and weekends in scheduling their employees. My neighbor actually had patients who scheduled mammograms on Christmas day.
I don't any churches that offer weekend Masses as mentioned in the OP at 5:45A Sunday morning, and I think there is only one in the area with a Sunday evening Mass. high school and college kids have ann especially rough time since the weekend is usually the only time they can get a lot of hours into make money to help pay for school.
[/quote]
I'm lucky- the parish that's actually closest to me offers a 7pm Mass. I went to that one alone a fair bit last summer because I'd be working during the day. Far from ideal, but it worked......[size="1"] and to be honest with you, sometimes I appreciate going to Mass without my family. [/size]

[Lil Red]

[quote name='aalpha1989' date='26 April 2010 - 09:46 AM' timestamp='1272300396' post='2100372']
roast beef.
[/quote]
turkey

[Oik]

[quote name='Lil Red' date='26 April 2010 - 12:30 PM' timestamp='1272303002' post='2100445']
turkey
[/quote]
Tofu


Seitan

[Luigi]

I think I remember reading in the Catholic Encyclopedia once that liturgical renewal began at Solemnes moastery some time in the mid- to late-1800s, and that the reform movement continued largely in monasteries. For one thing, they were considered strongholds of both faith and learning. For another, liturgy is a primary focus of life in a monastery. Given these conditions, monasteries could act as experiments - testing areas - for liturgical changes.

If I recall correctly further, the move to allow vigil (anticipated) Masses grew out of the monastic custom of beginning a litugical celebration/observation with evening prayer(?) the night before the feast. They continued the celebration/observation throughout the following day (the actual feast) with reduced work and their normal prayer schedule. It was a way of allowing the members to contemplate the day. And Sundays are feasts of sorts, so apparently it became the custom in some monasteries; I think it was also a return to the Jewish custom of beginning the Sabbath on the preceding evening.

All of which is fine and good - for monasteries. They are controlled environments, if you will, with all the monks/nuns operating on the same schedule, clear catechesis about why they are having Mass the prior evening, and the whole community "keeping the day holy" by not working and so forth.

But when the same option (anticipated Masses) became available to the general public (at least the general American public), I think a lot of the point behind it was lost - most people just take advantage of the more convenient time to schedule an early start for their fising trip the next day rather than "keeping the day holy" by reducing work and increasing prayer/contemplation. We Americans are peculiar about our time anyway - we tend to view it as a spendable/manageable resource similar to money.

I think the original idea behind anticipated Masses was based on solid theological reasoning and traditions, but I think a lot got lost in the translation from monasteries to parishes.

Others on the board can correct me if I'm wrong - as I say, I'm remembering something I read a while ago and I don't have time just now to reseaerch it again.

[Rebecca2009]

[quote name='Bennn' date='26 April 2010 - 10:24 AM' timestamp='1272295451' post='2100304']
I would feel bad if I went to an anticipation Mass without going to the actual Sunday Mass if I wouldn't have a serious reason for it. Resurrexi seems to have proven that it would fulfill the sunday obligation, but I still don't think it's praiseworthy to do this simply out of inconvenience, rather than out of necessity. If we understood what the Mass truly is, we would never find it 'inconvenient'. We would probably cry if we couldn't go everyday then.
[/quote]

I have to agree!

[Rebecca2009]

[quote name='Luigi' date='26 April 2010 - 11:26 PM' timestamp='1272342408' post='2100814']
I think I remember reading in the Catholic Encyclopedia once that liturgical renewal began at Solemnes moastery some time in the mid- to late-1800s, and that the reform movement continued largely in monasteries. For one thing, they were considered strongholds of both faith and learning. For another, liturgy is a primary focus of life in a monastery. Given these conditions, monasteries could act as experiments - testing areas - for liturgical changes.

If I recall correctly further, the move to allow vigil (anticipated) Masses grew out of the monastic custom of beginning a litugical celebration/observation with evening prayer(?) the night before the feast. They continued the celebration/observation throughout the following day (the actual feast) with reduced work and their normal prayer schedule. It was a way of allowing the members to contemplate the day. And Sundays are feasts of sorts, so apparently it became the custom in some monasteries; I think it was also a return to the Jewish custom of beginning the Sabbath on the preceding evening.

All of which is fine and good - for monasteries. They are controlled environments, if you will, with all the monks/nuns operating on the same schedule, clear catechesis about why they are having Mass the prior evening, and the whole community "keeping the day holy" by not working and so forth.

But when the same option (anticipated Masses) became available to the general public (at least the general American public), I think a lot of the point behind it was lost - most people just take advantage of the more convenient time to schedule an early start for their fising trip the next day rather than "keeping the day holy" by reducing work and increasing prayer/contemplation. We Americans are peculiar about our time anyway - we tend to view it as a spendable/manageable resource similar to money.

I think the original idea behind anticipated Masses was based on solid theological reasoning and traditions, but I think a lot got lost in the translation from monasteries to parishes.

Others on the board can correct me if I'm wrong - as I say, I'm remembering something I read a while ago and I don't have time just now to reseaerch it again.
[/quote]


Never heard about this, really good point!

[LouisvilleFan]

[quote name='Luigi' date='27 April 2010 - 01:26 AM' timestamp='1272342408' post='2100814']
But when the same option (anticipated Masses) became available to the general public (at least the general American public), I think a lot of the point behind it was lost - most people just take advantage of the more convenient time to schedule an early start for their fising trip the next day rather than "keeping the day holy" by reducing work and increasing prayer/contemplation.
[/quote]

I'd actually find it more respectful for someone going fishing/hunting/whatever early Sunday morning to attend the vigil than late in the evening on Sunday. For one, if fishing is an enjoyable and relaxing hobby, why should it be prohibited on the Sabbath? Second, it's preferable to attend Mass before a fishing trip than after. Third, at least they aren't being lazy. I find this more respectful than the person who just wants to sleep in.

Let's keep in mind though that a good number of people in service industries, police and fire, healthcare, non-profits, and most factories cannot exclude Sundays from their work schedules. Before we write off the whole vigil crowd, we might be surprised how many are actually there out of necessity.

Edited April 29, 2010 by LouisvilleFan

[cmaD2006]

[quote name='LouisvilleFan' date='29 April 2010 - 01:47 AM' timestamp='1272516455' post='2102039']
I'd actually find it more respectful for someone going fishing/hunting/whatever early Sunday morning to attend the vigil than late in the evening on Sunday. For one, if fishing is an enjoyable and relaxing hobby, why should it be prohibited on the Sabbath? Second, it's preferable to attend Mass before a fishing trip than after. Third, at least they aren't being lazy. I find this more respectful than the person who just wants to sleep in.

Let's keep in mind though that a good number of people in service industries, police and fire, healthcare, non-profits, and most factories cannot exclude Sundays from their work schedules. Before we write off the whole vigil crowd, we might be surprised how many are actually there out of necessity.
[/quote]

My parish only offers a spanish Mass on Saturday night ... so for those who do not speak english and who live close to the parish (and have no other transportation) it is the only spanish language option within a reasonable distance.

And I actually am grateful for the option -- sometimes there are those of us who *need* the extra sleep on Sunday morning. (and at this point -- with Church, work, and theology classes I don't have that much time to sleep in ...)

If I did have to go to a 9am Mass on Sunday morning ... I would probably take a siesta afterwards

[Ephrem Augustine]

I go to Saturday evening masses sometimes because of traveling that I have to do on Sunday. I have often found, at least in Southern California that Saturday masses are filled with older white people, and the more alive and younger masses are on Sunday mornings afternoons and evenings. If I must go at night, I prefer Sunday night. at least if i can sleep in one day.

[Groo the Wanderer]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='24 April 2010 - 04:42 PM' timestamp='1272141741' post='2099354']

"Traditionally, there is a 5:45 AM Mass, and in modern times, one at 7:00 PM"

Here's one look at it from a source I found.


[url="http://www.rosarychurch.net/answers/qa042008.html"]My link[/url]
[/quote]


This just ain't realistic in many parishes. This isn't the 1800's you know. In my parish for example, we have Masses at 530 and 730pm on Saturday evening and 700, 945, 1145, 115, and 330 on Sunday. We have 6000 registered families which means at least 20000 people, since 70% are hispanic. No telling how many are coming that are not registered. Even given the poor attendance of most Catholics these days our average weekly Mass attendance is around 7000. There is no frikkin way to get all those people inside the church at only one or two masses.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' date='01 May 2010 - 01:29 PM' timestamp='1272738578' post='2103190']
This just ain't realistic in many parishes. This isn't the 1800's you know. In my parish for example, we have Masses at 530 and 730pm on Saturday evening and 700, 945, 1145, 115, and 330 on Sunday. We have 6000 registered families which means at least 20000 people, since 70% are hispanic. No telling how many are coming that are not registered. Even given the poor attendance of most Catholics these days our average weekly Mass attendance is around 7000. There is no frikkin way to get all those people inside the church at only one or two masses.
[/quote]
Maybe so, maybe so.
On Sundays at my parish we have a 9am, 10:30am, and..... evening. Dunno what time evening Mass is.

7000 is huge. I don't believe I've ever been to a Mass that size. Not even close. Maybe 1000. 2000 At the extreme end.

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' date='01 May 2010 - 01:29 PM' timestamp='1272738578' post='2103190']
Even given the poor attendance of most Catholics these days our average weekly Mass attendance is around 7000. There is no frikkin way to get all those people inside the church at only one or two masses.
[/quote]


[quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='01 May 2010 - 07:28 PM' timestamp='1272760119' post='2103378']
7000 is huge. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/P.gif[/img] I don't believe I've ever been to a Mass that size. Not even close. Maybe 1000. 2000 At the extreme end.
[/quote]

I may be wrong, but I think he meant that TOTAL attendance at all the Masses offered was 7000--not that 7000 people attended one Mass. His post mentioned that two Masses are offered on Saturday evenings, and five Masses on Sundays--sounds like a large parish.

Edited May 2, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola