Discernment Is Ultimately Good :)

[Nunsense]

Once again, what Sister Marie says is so true and also chiquitunga's comments about not complicating discernment too much.

Maybe ask yourself simple questions at first like... are you looking for an active community or a contemplative one, cloistered or non-enlosed? Then the apostolate, anything in particular, like nursing or teaching or working with kids or elderly etc? This would help you to focus a little better.

Are you working with a spiritual director? I had a lot of help from my SD who was the first to tell me that he thought I was called to a contemplative life, not an active one, and that helped me enormously in discernment.

Then, do you already have an idea of the charism that attracts you? Or a particular saint/founder/foundress etc?

Franciscan spirituality pervades a lot of communities apart from the Franciscans, and some communities actually have more than one spirituality as their guiding principles.. eg Franciscan/Dominican or even as Sister Marie said, some of the lesser known spiritualities. St Frances de Sales has been the guiding light for many different religious communities as well as St Augustine.

And then finally, perhaps you could have a chat with the superior of the Franciscan community you love so much and explain that you love them but don't feel called to them, and ask if they know of other communities that are similar to them. This might sound a bit rude, but I think that most religious want to help you find the place that God has prepared for you, and would be happy to help out this way. My own SD was Benedictine and tried to encourage me to look in this direction, but in the end he accepted that I was a Carmelite and helped me discern this calling.

Prayers for you on your journey

[JTheresa]

I think that one of the biggest helps in discerning would be to know as much as you can about yourself, without letting bias toward any particular spirituality interfere. Know really what you like/ dislike doing, the way you pray most, your favorite devotions and saints, and the meaning that God has in your life. After you have all that sorted out, research different spiritualities and see how they compare. Most communities have a link to information on their spirituality on their website. Then go from there.

Honestly, I did not want to have a Franciscan spirituality. A lot of the Franciscans that I heard of were really into New Age and I didn't want to have any part of that. I wanted to be a loyal Dominican. But the more I learned about myself and [i]true[/i] Franciscan spirituality, the more I realized that I could run from who God made me to be. Now that I have accepted my spirituality, I am truly a lot happier in my vocation.

A little quote that I love from my patroness, "So sweet is His voice, that the poor soul, disconsolate at being unable to do His biddings at once, suffers more than if it could not hear Him."

Know of my prayers!!

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='JTheresa' date='23 May 2010 - 11:19 PM' timestamp='1274671184' post='2116329']
Honestly, I did not want to have a Franciscan spirituality. A lot of the Franciscans that I heard of were really into New Age and I didn't want to have any part of that. I wanted to be a loyal Dominican. But the more I learned about myself and [i]true[/i] Franciscan spirituality, the more I realized that I could run from who God made me to be. Now that I have accepted my spirituality, I am truly a lot happier in my vocation.
[/quote]

LOL, I sound like the exact opposite! I wanted to be a Franciscan very much because I greatly admire St. Francis and St. Clare. I've contemplated the Poor Clares or the Franciscan religious orders, but it was not to be. After meeting the CFR Sisters and living with them in their convent for a few days, I realized I don't have the Franciscan spirituality.

The more I read about Dominicans, however, the more I realize that I might be called to their charism.

Edited May 24, 2010 by MaterMisericordiae

[Nunsense]

[quote name='MaterMisericordiae' date='24 May 2010 - 01:40 PM' timestamp='1274672453' post='2116360']
LOL, I sound like the exact opposite! I wanted to be a Franciscan very much because I greatly admire St. Francis and St. Clare. I've contemplated the Poor Clares or the Franciscan religious orders, but it was not to be. After meeting the CFR Sisters and living with them in their convent for a few days, I realized I don't have the Franciscan spirituality.

The more I read about Dominicans, however, the more I realize that I might be called to their charism. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/blink.gif[/img]
[/quote]


And I wanted to be a Dominican because they study and teach and I got my Masters in Education and used to be a university professor and department chair and was going to do my doctorate, so I thought that I would fit right in with them! And besides, they have cool habits.

I also wanted to be a Poor Clare because I love St Francis and St Clare (my confirmation name) and really relate to their love of Lady Poverty, and their habits are way cool too, with bare feet and all.

But God had different plans for my heart. Now I can't imagine a community that didn't do mental prayer for two hours a day like the Carmelites or didn't spend a lot of time alone in one's cell. I am such a hermit at heart, but need the community, especially for the Divine Office. And St John of the Cross just cinched it all for me because everything he wrote echoed in my heart. And St Teresa Benedicta's (Edith Stein) book, [i]The Science of the Cross[/i], explained St John to me in a way that drove his message even deeper, so there can never be any turning away from my Carmelite heart now.

As the calling grows within your heart, it will become clearer to you just what God is asking. There may be some resistance to it at first, but the fire starts to burn so hotly and with so much love that in the end you have to surrender to His will, especially since you know that everything He wills is for our own ultimate good.

All spiritualities are beautiful because they are all of God and for love of God. But He does prepare a place for each one of us that is perfect for us, and discernment is just about learning to hear His voice in our hearts. Discernment is such a precious time for anyone because it is all about seeking the Beloved and listening for Him and surrendering to Him. A person is blessed to even be allowed to think about such things, no matter what the outcome. Any time given to God is pleasing to Him.

[laetitia crucis]

Thank you everyone for your prayers.

I do have a spiritual director, and I have spoken with the VD of that awesome Franciscan community multiple times -- I've spoken to both about my discernment and various struggles therein. They have most definitely been such a help and blessing to me!

I love the advice you all give -- and continue to give. It is a great help in my own self-reflection, especially in times of temptation and/or doubt in regards to my vocation.

God willing, I do believe I know where God is calling me... and I believe I've finally learned what my spirituality really is. Sometimes I think I'm just a little slow. Haha!

When I first began discerning six years ago, I was very much drawn to the Dominican spirituality and living their motto, "to contemplate and share the fruits of contemplation", as well as "Veritas". I always been a "lover of Truth" and the kind of person that practically bursts at the seams when Truth has been found -- the desire to share what I've learned is almost unbearable at times. However, despite that deep desire I have never in my life felt called to the vocation to be a schoolteacher. So, during those early years of discernment, I pretty much scratched off "Dominican" from my vocation radar as it seemed in the U.S., that's pretty much what non-contemplative/cloistered Dominicans do. I began looking elsewhere.

I had fallen pretty hard for "Lady Poverty", though I've never really been drawn to St. Francis or St. Clare. What draws me most is love of Our Lady and the thirst for Truth. I wish to live out my vocation in service of our Blessed Mother, to bring all souls to her, so that they may come to know her Son, Divine Truth. Yet, I've always realized that I desire to reach people where they are...and then bring them up to the lofty heights of the fullness of our Catholic faith. I desire to take the "low road" of "common sense" and of the "Common Doctor", so to say... this is the road I have taken in my own conversion to Roman Catholicism. Logic, faith, and reason. To immerse myself within the study of Sacred Truth, then to share this with others, to help them come to know Our Lady and God in such a way.... this inflames my heart.

After reading William Hinnebusch's [url="http://www.domcentral.org/trad/domspirit/default.htm"]Dominican Spirituality: Principles and Practice[/url] (I'd highly recommend reading this, MaterMisericordiae! ), I felt like God was smacking me upside the head with a huge 2x4. That's the only way He was able to bestow a bit of common sense into my thick head -- in addition to my discernment with a previous community.

Anyhoo... I'm quite certain I am called to be a Dominican. We'll see where exactly God wants me to be a Dominican, hopefully soon. And I guess all I can say is that I'm hoping I can live out a Dominican vocation "in service of our Blessed Mother, to bring all souls to her, so that they may come to know her Son, Divine Truth."

[JTheresa]

Yay!!! I'm so excited for you laetitia crucis!!! Finding ones spirituality is so relieving!! (and I definitly know the 2 by 4 feeling )

here's a website I found that does a really good job of summarizing the different spiritualities:
www.religious-vocation.com
there is link toward the top called "discerning orders".
It was really helpful when I was discerning!!!
Let the adventure begin!! Enjoy!

Jessica

[Mary Veronica]

[quote name='laetitia crucis' date='23 May 2010 - 10:57 AM' timestamp='1274626656' post='2115940']
+1!!!

Thank you for this beautiful response, Sister Marie.

Perhaps you (and/or others here) can help me better understand this (in relation to your post)...

- In discernment (of the religious life) is it best to first start with what [i]spirituality[/i] one is called to (Franciscan, Dominican, Benedictine, Carmelite, etc.), [b]then [/b]pursue what charism one is called to within that spirituality?

- Here is a very specific dilemma that I've come across throughout the past years of my own discernment: I have discerned with an amazing Franciscan community because my heart "burns with energy, desire, passion, and love" for their [i]charism[/i]. However, I am 100% certain that my [i]spirituality [/i]is simply [i]not[/i] Franciscan. No matter how hard I've tried throughout my discernment to have such energy, desire, passion, and love for the Franciscan spirituality... it's just not "me", you know? (I'd feel like a "poser"... or that I was living a lie, so to say. )

I wondered if there even existed another Order/community that embraced the specific charism of that Franciscan community that I so love. Through investigation, I do not believe there is.... at least none that I know of.

So... given this, I've had to dig deeper in understanding my specific vocation, and especially my own spirituality. This in itself has been a blessing, but I will admit.. it came with initial confusion, followed by a period of great grief. Being a Franciscan is something I simply cannot "will" myself to be -- no matter how much I want it nor how much I admire it. I think I'm finally at peace about that. And I've learned that the specific [i]charism [/i]that resonates within me... can be lived in other spiritualities, too. (I think. )

....I hope this makes sense and that I'm not being too vague.
[/quote]

that's what happened to me when I entered the Poor Clare Colettine Order, I felt like a "poser"...but the VD kept insisting that it takes time to get to know the charism and come to the devotion of St. Francis and St. Clare and St. Colette (apparently, it's common among the sisters that they entered not knowing anything about the Franciscan spirituality, but because they witnessed it lived faithfully by others, they discovered it to be their vocation.).

But Obviously since I'm PM'ing:blush: I had chosen to stop discerning with the Poor Clare's. although I still hold kind affections for them *sigh*...

You seem well-rounded in spirit, which many religious consider as ideal! but it looks like it's also a big reason why your wondering "where am I called to?"

well wherever you're discerning leads you (and all of us here), I wouldn't doubt that the specific charism inside you will "click" with it surprisingly, and it'll come so natural to be a Spiritual Mother of Souls <3

God Bless you sister


Come to think of it...my director said it's really important to discover that spiritual motherhood inside us, because naturally, mothers are the kind to survive countless ordeals (danger, oppositions, trials, etc) out of love for their children.

GOD BLESS ALL MOTHERS!

[vee]

"Yet, I've always realized that I desire to reach people where they are...and then bring them up to the lofty heights of the fullness of our Catholic faith."

You're such a Jesuit Its too bad they don't have a female branch or I would have gone to discern with them too! I know there are Sisters who use Ignatian spirituality but it's just not the same

[laetitia crucis]

[quote name='Mary Veronica' date='24 May 2010 - 06:38 AM' timestamp='1274697509' post='2116469']
that's what happened to me when I entered the Poor Clare Colettine Order, I felt like a "poser"...but [b]the VD kept insisting that it takes time to get to know the charism and come to the devotion of St. Francis and St. Clare and St. Colette (apparently, it's common among the sisters that they entered not knowing anything about the Franciscan spirituality, but because they witnessed it lived faithfully by others, they discovered it to be their vocation.). [/b]

But Obviously since I'm PM'ing:blush: I had chosen to stop discerning with the Poor Clare's. although I still hold kind affections for them *sigh*...

You seem well-rounded in spirit, which many religious consider as ideal! but it looks like it's also a big reason why your wondering "where am I called to?"

well wherever you're discerning leads you (and all of us here), I wouldn't doubt that the specific charism inside you will "click" with it surprisingly, and it'll come so natural to be a Spiritual Mother of Souls <3

God Bless you sister


Come to think of it...my director said it's really important to discover that spiritual motherhood inside us, because naturally, mothers are the kind to survive countless ordeals (danger, oppositions, trials, etc) out of love for their children.

GOD BLESS ALL MOTHERS!
[/quote]

Awwww, thank you for this post, MV!

I've heard similar things as the bolded bit, and pretty much just told myself, "It'll just take some time...", yet somehow -- I suppose it's grace, really -- it's much easier to find out where you are [i]not[/i] called. Although, some do seem to "get lucky" with the first go around, and I think that's pretty cool.

Thank you for your kind words of encouragement.

[quote name='vee8' date='24 May 2010 - 09:27 AM' timestamp='1274707629' post='2116490']
"Yet, I've always realized that I desire to reach people where they are...and then bring them up to the lofty heights of the fullness of our Catholic faith."

You're such a Jesuit Its too bad they don't have a female branch or I would have gone to discern with them too! I know there are Sisters who use Ignatian spirituality but it's just not the same
[/quote]


Believe it or not, when I first became Catholic and discovered Ignatius and his Jesuits, I very much wanted to BE a Jesuit! I wanted to enter the Jesuits and reform them, much like St. Teresa of Avila did for the Carmelites.

While going to my very first ever "Come and See" (to a super-liberal community -- it was the first "Come and See" postcard I received in the mail. Hah!), one of the Sisters had recommended another Order that had Ignatian spirituality. I looked into them, but soon found out they were very similar to the community that recommended them. To say the least, I was disturbed.

I think perhaps part of my own personal vocation will be to be a spiritual mother for Jesuits.

[vee]

[quote name='laetitia crucis' date='24 May 2010 - 09:12 AM' timestamp='1274710355' post='2116505']


Believe it or not, when I first became Catholic and discovered Ignatius and his Jesuits, I very much wanted to BE a Jesuit! I wanted to enter the Jesuits and reform them, much like St. Teresa of Avila did for the Carmelites.
<snip>
I think perhaps part of my own personal vocation will be to be a spiritual mother for Jesuits.


[/quote]

*cough* You know Teresa has a nice little order she reformed that does a lot of praying for priests *cough* They are VERY Marian too, and brown doesn't show stains so easily as white

Sorry I know you're a die hard Dominican but I couldnt resist! I think I've been infected or something Of course you can pray for the Jesuits in any order or state in life and I feel called to do that too. Lord knows they certainly need it!

edited for typo

Edited May 24, 2010 by vee8

[Mary Veronica]

Does anyone know what it might feel like to be truly ecumenical in Christ, and not.... politically correct?

Most of my co-workers are of different Christian sects, and the most amazing thing is they support me in my discernment, although they don't know what it really is, or more or less that I'm Catholic...I don't know if they're just being kind (ie: "I'll respect you if you'll respect me") or if it's ecumenism ("all for the Glory of GOD!"). SO I'm very confused about my response as a Catholic to their overwhelming kindness

this is a kind of personal and necessary concern, because I sort of feel that religious and priests have to constantly encounter people who might present themselves as very friendly and gracious, but are doing a lot of harm to others (ex: like when the Pope, Our Holy Father and the US President meets, or even something like a prominent benefactor to religious/priests who's going through a divorce outside the Church).

Is there such thing as being too kind and respectful? Should I even dare see it as a kind of parallel to the Parable of the Dishonest Steward, whom Our Lord suprisingly rewarded (LK 16: 1-12). not to be mistaken that my co-workers are the "dishonest stewards" but that I am ("we" are). Because we are very much seen as representing the Catholic Church (especially when people know we're called to religious/priestly life), by showing such mercy to those who are less "indebted" because MUch has not been entrusted to them as with us, does it give Glory to Jesus that we represent Him and the Church in an almost "shrewd" manner (by not being so judgemental , for fear of being judged ourselves) and yet make countless others believe so much in His Mercy (as well as the Church He established) as did the dishonest steward with His rich Master?:


LK 16: 1-12
[size="1"]1[/size] [size="1"]He also said to the disciples, "There was a rich man who had a steward, and charges were brought to him that this man was wasting his goods. [/size] [size="1"]2[/size] [size="1"]And he called him and said to him, `What is this that I hear about you? Turn in the account of your stewardship, for you can no longer be steward.' [/size] [size="1"]3[/size] [size="1"]And the steward said to himself, `What shall I do, since my master is taking the s tewardship away from me? I am not strong enough to dig, and I am ashamed to beg. [/size] [size="1"]4[/size] [size="1"]I have decided what to do, so that people may receive me into their houses when I am put out of the stewardship.' [/size] [size="1"]5[/size] [size="1"]So, summoning his master's debtors one by one, he said to the first, `How much do you owe my master?' [/size] [size="1"]6[/size] [size="1"]He said, `A hundred measures of oil.' And he said to him, `Take your bill, and sit down quickly and write fifty.' [/size] [size="1"]7[/size] [size="1"]Then he said to another, `And how much do you owe?' He said, `A hundred measures of wheat.' He said to him, `Take your bill, and write eighty.' [/size] [size="1"]8[/size] [size="1"]The master commended the dishonest steward for his shrewdness; for the sons of this world are more shrewd in dealing with their own generation than the sons of light. [/size] [size="1"]9[/size] [size="1"]And I tell you,make friends for yourselves by means of unrighteous mammon, so that when it fails they may receive you into the eternal habitations. [/size] [size="1"]10[/size] [size="1"]"He who is faithful in a very little is faithful also in much; and he who is dishonest in a very little is dishonest also in much. [/size] [size="1"]11[/size] [size="1"]If then you have not been faithful in the unrighteous mammon, who will entrust to you the true riches? [/size] [size="1"]12[/size] [size="1"]And if you have not been faithful in that which is another's, who will give you that which is your own? [/size]



Please help me to clear my conscience, it is very tempting to think that I'm a coward in my faith, that I should be enduring persecutions like St. Stephen, who was filled with the Holy Spirit to proclaim that Jesus is the Messiah and was unreasonably martyred!


I even had a Baptist co-worker ask me if it was alright for her to pray the rosary, and if it is for Catholics ONLY....and I shrewdly said YES, she can pray the rosary!!! Because she's loving Jesus the way His own Mother Did! By Contemplating His Mysteries! and that would make Him HAPPY .... BUT I truly wanted to say, JUST BE CATHOLIC FOR GOODNESS SAKE and you can Pray the Rosary ALL YOU WANT to the fullness of it MERITS! *sobbing*

....any thoughts will be appreciated thank you Edited May 26, 2010 by Mary Veronica

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='Mary Veronica' date='25 May 2010 - 08:27 PM' timestamp='1274837265' post='2117833']
[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/shock.gif[/img] Does anyone know what it might feel like to be truly ecumenical in Christ, and not.... politically correct?[/quote]

You really need someone Catholic to answer your questions, but I'll add my bit of insight to what it feels like to be on the other--that is, non-Catholic--side.

[quote]Most of my co-workers are of different Christian sects, and the most amazing thing is they support me in my discernment, although they don't know what it really is, or more or less that I'm Catholic...I don't know if they're just being kind (ie: "I'll respect you if you'll respect me") or if it's ecumenism ("all for the Glory of GOD!"). SO I'm very confused about my response as a Catholic to their overwhelming kindness [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/sadder.gif[/img][/quote]

I obviously can't look into the hearts of your co-workers. But, having spent most of my life working in an office, I'd guess that some of them are just being kind, and maybe some are being ecumenical, but if it was me, I would be genuinely supportive of your discernment, and want you to find the vocation in life that God wants for you. Most Catholics assume that non-Catholics are necessarily anti-Catholic. At least in my case, this is not true.
[quote] This is a kind of personal and necessary concern, because I sort of feel that religious and priests have to constantly encounter people who might present themselves as very friendly and gracious, but are doing a lot of harm to others (ex: like when the Pope, Our Holy Father and the US President meets, or even something like a prominent benefactor to religious/priests who's going through a divorce outside the Church).

Is there such thing as being too kind and respectful? Should I even dare see it as a kind of parallel to the Parable of the Dishonest Steward, whom Our Lord suprisingly rewarded (LK 16: 1-12). not to be mistaken that my co-workers are the "dishonest stewards" but that I am ("we" are). Because we are very much seen as representing the Catholic Church (especially when people know we're called to religious/priestly life), by showing such mercy to those who are less "indebted" because MUch has not been entrusted to them as with us, does it give Glory to Jesus that we represent Him and the Church in an almost "shrewd" manner (by not being so judgemental , for fear of being judged ourselves) and yet make countless others believe so much in His Mercy (as well as the Church He established) as did the dishonest steward with His rich Master?: [/quote]

I like to think that I am one of those who is doing no harm, and genuinely wishes the best for people. But, I can see that, in one sense, you want to be careful whom you trust, but on the other hand, not be overly paranoid. Unfortunately, that is going to depend on the person. (And, one problem with co-workers is that there ARE other agendas in the workplace--that's not wrong, it's just the nature of the workplace. So, for example, co-workers may wish you the best in your discernment, at least in part, because if you left your job, they might get ahead faster. I don't know what your workplace is like--some are very competitive and others are not competitive at all.)


[quote]Please help me to clear my conscience, it is very tempting to think that I'm a coward in my faith, that I should be enduring persecutions like St. Stephen, who was filled with the Holy Spirit to proclaim that Jesus is the Messiah and was unreasonably martyred! [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/sadwalk.gif[/img][/quote]

I can't answer this one. Also, it's true in most workplaces that discussion of religion is discouraged, if not verboten. (There are all kinds of federal laws about discriminating on the basis of religion, so many workplaces deal with the laws by saying, for example, that religious prosletyzing(sp?) is not allowed on work premises.) So, in some ways, the workplace is kind of an unnatural situation.


[quote]I even had a Baptist co-worker ask me if it was alright for her to pray the rosary, and if it is for Catholics ONLY....and I shrewdly said YES, she can pray the rosary!!! Because she's loving Jesus the way His own Mother Did! By Contemplating His Mysteries! and that would make Him HAPPY [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/weep.gif[/img] .... BUT I truly wanted to say, JUST BE CATHOLIC FOR GOODNESS SAKE and you can Pray the Rosary ALL YOU WANT to the fullness of it MERITS! *sobbing*

....any thoughts will be appreciated thank you [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/rain.gif[/img]
[/quote]

Several people on Phatmass who are converts have said that they started praying the Rosary before they became Catholic, sometimes for a long time. In answer to your question about why your co-workers just don't become Catholics, and pray the Rosary to the fullness of its merits, the only person I can answer for is me, and in my case, at least, it's not that easy. I still feel that there is a LOT more I'd need to know about the Catholic church, and that, for me, at least, there are some pretty big roadblocks. I'm not going to detail them, because the issues are very personal, and I'm not always sure that I understand what's going on myself, much less explain it to other people.

I do know that God is working on me. But, I also know, that for me, at least, it's likely to take a long time. One of my problems is that I am almost too honest (if that is possible). I know some people convert, almost without thinking, particularly if their spouse is Catholic and wants them to convert. That's not me at all!!! I couldn't convert unless I could do so honestly and with no major doubts, and be a REAL Catholic, not just someone who just goes through the motions. Plus, I'm someone who always wants to know "Why?" So, if it happens (and I don't even know that it will) it will be awhile, probably years. I'm just trying to stay open to whatever God wants, but I have no clue yet what that is.

My friends on Phatmass have been very patient with me. I think some of them understand, and some of them don't, but the ones that don't understand at least try (or pretend LOL) to respect me enough to know that my reasons for not converting immediately must be good ones. We've gotten to the place where we can joke a little about my possibly converting, but I HATE feeling pressured, so every once in awhile I act in an immature way and spend the next day or two apologizing to everyone for being so lame. I go through times where the "warring factions" inside my emotions and my intellect tear me apart.

So, even if you don't understand me, God is the one ultimately in charge, and he can be trusted. And, I like to think my friends on Phatmass know the great respect I have for the Catholic faith and that my questions are honest ones. I would never consciously do anything that interfered with their faith, or waste their time with questions that were just an intellectual exercise.

Like I said, you really need a Catholic to give you advice on what to do, but I thought I'd at least present the point of view of someone for whom conversion is not easy, in case that helps you understand your coworkers. I wish you the best.

Edited May 26, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[JTheresa]

I understand how you feel, MV, and I've been in that situation many many times. I have tons of Protestant friends and many "not religious" conworkers who don't understand why i love my faith so much let alone to go and enter a convent!!! But I have gotten a lot of positive responses from them, to my great surprise, because I honestly expected o be tortured like all the good saints were. So, I would say thank them for their kindness and for respecting your decision; you can't really change what their motives are, and being unkind certainly would help anything. But at the same time don't glorify them (of course). The better they know you, the better they will know about your faith and what you hold to be truth. All you have to do is bear witness to the truth.
I'm pretty sure that the president knows the popes stand on moral issues. But if he isn't willing to budge when the topics come up, what else can the pope do? Praying is the best way you can help these people. As long as they know where you stand, you aren't really in a position to come
out and correct them. Help them see the truth and mainly the harm that it does to themselves and the peole they love.

All I can say about the possible "lemons", if I can use such a term, that you encounter is just to be a witness to them. You don't have to go straigt out and tell them all the good things they should be doing (in fact I would advise against that, no on slimed to be told they are wrong) but show them how happy and joyful and peacefilled you are by doing good and especially by being a Catholic. If they start to wonder, explain your happiness in the best way you can. They may think you are crazy but they will never forget it, and one day, when they need it most, that seed will be there and it will grow. But at the same time you can't be a push over. ( I need to take my own advice, this stuff is hard!!) don't try to be politically correct!!! Well, I guess it depends on where you work, I worked at a restaraunt, so no one was politically correct anyway. Be honest, and speak the truth as often as necessary. Sometimes it's necessary to just wait for people to come to you. As for being judgemenntal, don't condemn them, but don't act as if it's alright either. Take a, " I don't know all the circumstances, but i dint really think it was right" stance. God is ultimately the judge anyway so we don't have to worry about it.

I think God gave you a different form of martyrdom than He gave Saint Stephen: the martyrdom of being meek and living an ordinary life until He tells you otherwise. We aren't all called to be physical martyrs; think of how easy that would be!! Our dearly beloved JPII said that most of us are called to the martyrdom of everyday life. Of enduring temptation after temptation, trial after trial, for the sake ofthe kingdom. Continuously making ourselves a living sacrifice to the Lord. In my mind, this kind of martyrdom reaps far more grace ( the graces are also far more needed) because this martyrdom lasts our whole lifetime!!!

Hopefully that helps some. If I said something that makes no sense, I apologize; it's late and I'm stupid.
Prayers!!
Jessica

[Mary Veronica]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='26 May 2010 - 12:16 AM' timestamp='1274847417' post='2118031']
You really need someone Catholic to answer your questions, but I'll add my bit of insight to what it feels like to be on the other--that is, non-Catholic--side.
[/quote]

OH THANK GOD! *relieved* I was kind of afraid of asking someone on the other non-Catholic-side, and well, here you are! THANK YOU!

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='26 May 2010 - 12:16 AM' timestamp='1274847417' post='2118031']
I obviously can't look into the hearts of your co-workers. But, having spent most of my life working in an office, I'd guess that some of them are just being kind, and maybe some are being ecumenical, but if it was me, I would be genuinely supportive of your discernment, and want you to find the vocation in life that God wants for you. Most Catholics assume that non-Catholics are necessarily anti-Catholic. At least in my case, this is not true.
[/quote]

AHH...it is true "I" personally assumed that non-Catholics are anti-Catholic, that is, they look at us funny because we claim so many things in our faith that maybe they can't claim. What's interesting is that it doesn't take differences of religion for anyone to look at someone funny. I'm guilty of seeing even my own fellow Catholics as anti-Catholic, my own family as anti-family, and friends as anti-friends. Our Lord knows, maybe in the end , we'll all find out that we really believed so much in the same things, but were so blinded by our pride, self-love, and terrible wounds. BUT honestly, thank you for your genuine support...my sister in Christ


[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='26 May 2010 - 12:16 AM' timestamp='1274847417' post='2118031']
I like to think that I am one of those who is doing no harm, and genuinely wishes the best for people. But, I can see that, in one sense, you want to be careful whom you trust, but on the other hand, not be overly paranoid. Unfortunately, that is going to depend on the person. (And, one problem with co-workers is that there ARE other agendas in the workplace--that's not wrong, it's just the nature of the workplace. So, for example, co-workers may wish you the best in your discernment, at least in part, because if you left your job, they might get ahead faster. I don't know what your workplace is like--some are very competitive and others are not competitive at all.)
[/quote]

I work at a Nursing Facility as a Certified Nursing Assistant, it isn't so much competitive, but it's VERY territorial! I haven't invaded anyone's territory, so they don't treat me like a threat...I have no intention to tell people how to start doing their job. that's why I never liked the thought of telling others how to live their faith (because often when I have the urge to, I'm not very loving ). The only way anyone, even I, would listen is if we were commanded by love. so to be honest, I have trouble listening to others who don't show any sign of genuine concern ...GOODNESS, I listen more to Him in the solitude of prayer and meditation, than to anyone else in my life! But don't get me wrong, you had me at "hello" I should say.

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='26 May 2010 - 12:16 AM' timestamp='1274847417' post='2118031']
I can't answer this one. Also, it's true in most workplaces that discussion of religion is discouraged, if not verboten. (There are all kinds of federal laws about discriminating on the basis of religion, so many workplaces deal with the laws by saying, for example, that religious prosletyzing(sp?) is not allowed on work premises.) So, in some ways, the workplace is kind of an unnatural situation.
[/quote]

OH DUH, Why didn't I think of that! I feel so stupid!


[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='26 May 2010 - 12:16 AM' timestamp='1274847417' post='2118031']
Several people on Phatmass who are converts have said that they started praying the Rosary before they became Catholic, sometimes for a long time. In answer to your question about why your co-workers just don't become Catholics, and pray the Rosary to the fullness of its merits, the only person I can answer for is me, and in my case, at least, it's not that easy. I still feel that there is a LOT more I'd need to know about the Catholic church, and that, for me, at least, there are some pretty big roadblocks. I'm not going to detail them, because the issues are very personal, and I'm not always sure that I understand what's going on myself, much less explain it to other people.
[/quote]

That is so beautiful...your discernment sounds so humble and full of hope. And all the while, I thought that people just don't like "change" because they are stubborn or bitter...I never thought that it might simply be "not easy." how could I forget my own personal conversion, which was not easy as well?


[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='26 May 2010 - 12:16 AM' timestamp='1274847417' post='2118031']
I do know that God is working on me. But, I also know, that for me, at least, it's likely to take a long time. One of my problems is that I am almost too honest (if that is possible). I know some people convert, almost without thinking, particularly if their spouse is Catholic and wants them to convert. That's not me at all!!! I couldn't convert unless I could do so honestly and with no major doubts, and be a REAL Catholic, not just someone who just goes through the motions. Plus, I'm someone who always wants to know "Why?" So, if it happens (and I don't even know that it will) it will be awhile, probably years. I'm just trying to stay open to whatever God wants, but I have no clue yet what that is.

My friends on Phatmass have been very patient with me. I think some of them understand, and some of them don't, but the ones that don't understand at least try (or pretend LOL) to respect me enough to know that my reasons for not converting immediately must be good ones. We've gotten to the place where we can joke a little about my possibly converting, but I HATE feeling pressured, so every once in awhile I act in an immature way and spend the next day or two apologizing to everyone for being so lame. I go through times where the "warring factions" inside my emotions and my intellect tear me apart.

So, even if you don't understand me, God is the one ultimately in charge, and he can be trusted. And, I like to think my friends on Phatmass know the great respect I have for the Catholic faith and that my questions are honest ones. I would never consciously do anything that interfered with their faith, or waste their time with questions that were just an intellectual exercise.

Like I said, you really need a Catholic to give you advice on what to do, but I thought I'd at least present the point of view of someone for whom conversion is not easy, in case that helps you understand your coworkers. I wish you the best.
[/quote]

I love when souls have the courage to ask forgiveness, because it shows more that they have such GREAT LOVE to forgive!!! God Bless you! I WISH YOU THE BEST!

[Mary Veronica]

[quote name='JTheresa' date='26 May 2010 - 01:04 AM' timestamp='1274850269' post='2118058']
I understand how you feel, MV, and I've been in that situation many many times. I have tons of Protestant friends and many "not religious" conworkers who don't understand why i love my faith so much let alone to go and enter a convent!!! But I have gotten a lot of positive responses from them, to my great surprise, because I honestly expected o be tortured like all the good saints were. So, I would say thank them for their kindness and for respecting your decision; you can't really change what their motives are, and being unkind certainly would help anything. But at the same time don't glorify them (of course). The better they know you, the better they will know about your faith and what you hold to be truth. All you have to do is bear witness to the truth.
I'm pretty sure that the president knows the popes stand on moral issues. But if he isn't willing to budge when the topics come up, what else can the pope do? Praying is the best way you can help these people. As long as they know where you stand, you aren't really in a position to come
out and correct them. Help them see the truth and mainly the harm that it does to themselves and the peole they love.

All I can say about the possible "lemons", if I can use such a term, that you encounter is just to be a witness to them. You don't have to go straigt out and tell them all the good things they should be doing (in fact I would advise against that, no on slimed to be told they are wrong) but show them how happy and joyful and peacefilled you are by doing good and especially by being a Catholic. If they start to wonder, explain your happiness in the best way you can. They may think you are crazy but they will never forget it, and one day, when they need it most, that seed will be there and it will grow. But at the same time you can't be a push over. ( I need to take my own advice, this stuff is hard!!) don't try to be politically correct!!! Well, I guess it depends on where you work, I worked at a restaraunt, so no one was politically correct anyway. Be honest, and speak the truth as often as necessary. Sometimes it's necessary to just wait for people to come to you. As for being judgemenntal, don't condemn them, but don't act as if it's alright either. Take a, " I don't know all the circumstances, but i dint really think it was right" stance. God is ultimately the judge anyway so we don't have to worry about it.

I think God gave you a different form of martyrdom than He gave Saint Stephen: the martyrdom of being meek and living an ordinary life until He tells you otherwise. We aren't all called to be physical martyrs; think of how easy that would be!! Our dearly beloved JPII said that most of us are called to the martyrdom of everyday life. Of enduring temptation after temptation, trial after trial, for the sake ofthe kingdom. Continuously making ourselves a living sacrifice to the Lord. In my mind, this kind of martyrdom reaps far more grace ( the graces are also far more needed) because this martyrdom lasts our whole lifetime!!!
[/quote]


that was so helpful! I'd forgotten about the power of hidden love through prayer, sacrifice, and spiritual martyrdom. and your comments remind me of Our Mother Mary because she can bring so much peace to my heart through encouragement and assurance. May she look with GREAT joy on you and all those who imitate her virtues!

GLORY TO GOD for all His True Children who magnify the Greatness of His Mercy and LOVE!


[quote name='JTheresa' date='26 May 2010 - 01:04 AM' timestamp='1274850269' post='2118058']
Hopefully that helps some. If I said something that makes no sense, I apologize; it's late and I'm stupid.
Prayers!!
Jessica
[/quote]

then thanks for being stupid because it's late. I understood to the good of my soul!

[laetitia crucis]

[quote name='vee8' date='24 May 2010 - 11:37 AM' timestamp='1274715478' post='2116541']
*cough* You know Teresa has a nice little order she reformed that does a lot of praying for priests *cough* They are VERY Marian too, and brown doesn't show stains so easily as white

Sorry I know you're a die hard Dominican but I couldnt resist! I think I've been infected or something Of course you can pray for the Jesuits in any order or state in life and I feel called to do that too. Lord knows they certainly need it!

edited for typo
[/quote]



I haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about. I mean, Carmelites? Who's ever heard of Carmelites? Is that the new low-fat caramel drink from Starbucks?



[size="1"]Actually, I can only fantasize about being a Carmelite. I've always known it's not my vocation, but wow... I've always had (and will continue to have) such admiration for all called to it. Pure awesomeness.[/size]

[IgnatiusofLoyola]

[quote name='laetitia crucis' date='26 May 2010 - 10:15 PM' timestamp='1274930145' post='2118881']
[size="1"]Actually, I can only fantasize about being a Carmelite. I've always known it's not my vocation, but wow... I've always had (and will continue to have) such admiration for all called to it. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/notworthy2.gif[/img] Pure awesomeness.[/size]
[/quote]

Don't you have to have visions and stuff to be a Carmelite? I want to be a Jesuit. They'd let me in just because of my birthday, even though I'd probably be a total loser Jesuit.

Edited May 27, 2010 by IgnatiusofLoyola

[laetitia crucis]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='26 May 2010 - 11:18 PM' timestamp='1274930326' post='2118885']
Don't you have to have visions and stuff to be a Carmelite? I want to be a Jesuit. They'd let me in just because of my birthday, even though I'd probably be a total loser Jesuit.
[/quote]

If this is the case, then I would totally fail at being a Carmelite! Heehee.

Back in the day, I wanted to be the first female Jesuit. I wanted to reform the Order like St. Teresa of Avila did for the Carmelites.

I think you could help whip them back into shape! Perhaps they need a new infusion of some good German no-nonsense sanctity!

[vee]

[quote name='laetitia crucis' date='26 May 2010 - 10:15 PM' timestamp='1274930145' post='2118881']


I haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about. I mean, Carmelites? Who's ever heard of Carmelites? Is that the new low-fat caramel drink from Starbucks?

[/quote]

Yes, yes it is.
I get all misty eyed remembering the not so long ago days when I said whats a Carmelite? Who is Teresa of Avila? Boy do I regret asking that!

[quote][size="1"]Actually, I can only fantasize about being a Carmelite. I've always known it's not my vocation, but wow... I've always had (and will continue to have) such admiration for all called to it. [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/notworthy2.gif[/img] Pure awesomeness.[/size][/quote]
[size="1"]
The joy that comes through in your posts is like the joy that emanates when you talk to them, so at least in that regard you would make a good Carmelite. Not that other Orders dont have joyful sisters too its just I wasnt expecting what I found. [/size]

[vee]

[quote name='IgnatiusofLoyola' date='26 May 2010 - 10:18 PM' timestamp='1274930326' post='2118885']
Don't you have to have visions and stuff to be a Carmelite? I want to be a Jesuit. They'd let me in just because of my birthday, even though I'd probably be a total loser Jesuit.
[/quote]

Oh good another who wants to be a Jesuit