Apotheoun Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 [quote name='Resurrexi' date='24 May 2010 - 06:11 PM' timestamp='1274746279' post='2116823'] It sounds to me like St. Paul is just saying "if I am a great public speaker" or "if I preach the faith eloquently." [/quote] Yes, I do not believe that he is referring to some kind of "seraphic" or "cherubic" language, but is referring instead to speaking the truth in the same way that the Fathers assembled in a council, or the saints in their spiritual teachings, can be God-inspired.
Resurrexi Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 When I consider the modern practices of "speaking in tongues" and being "slain in the Spirit", I begin to wonder if Karl Marx may have been onto something when he said, "Religion is the opium of the people."
ThePenciledOne Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 (edited) Then you will have to excuse King David when he danced before the Lord. And Marx may have been onto something because, there is a grain of truth in that statement, because I think faith should intoxicate us every once in while, at least in my own opinion. Edited May 25, 2010 by ThePenciledOne
Sternhauser Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 [quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='24 May 2010 - 03:01 PM' timestamp='1274731299' post='2116658'] I have been slain in the spirit before, and for me it was during a empowerment night with my household, The Fishers of Men. My household brothers prayed over me and in that time I was slowly pulled away into a relaxed state in which I could not move nor did I have a wish too. My ears could hear things going on as other household brothers were prayed over others, yet my mind was elsewhere and I had an incredibly peace on and within me, as I had a small conversation with God. Once the presence of the Lord faded or at least lessened I was able to get up, though my limbs still felt heavy and then I returned to praying over my brothers. It is a hard thing to grasp to some degree, since some people just hold reservations upon it and are skeptical, but that is because it is a deeply personal experience. [/quote] That sounds precisely like the psychological and physiological effect of being hypnotized. I'm not saying you were hypnotized secretly. I'm saying the situation is nearly the same. ~Sternhauser
ThePenciledOne Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 If you turn to 1 Cor. 12: 7-11 "To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. All these are inspired by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills." So, given that it more or less outlines the Spiritual Gifts, along with some normally attributed to the Charismatic movement here, I would not throw prayer tongues out with the bath water.
ThePenciledOne Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 [quote name='Sternhauser' date='24 May 2010 - 11:07 PM' timestamp='1274753261' post='2116912'] That sounds precisely like the psychological and physiological effect of being hypnotized. I'm not saying you were hypnotized secretly. I'm saying the situation is nearly the same. ~Sternhauser [/quote]
KnightofChrist Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 " In the earliest times, 'the Holy Ghost fell upon them that believed: and they spake with tongues' which they had not learned, 'as the Spirit gave them utterance.' These were signs adapted to the time for there behooved to be that betokening of the Spirit in all tongues over the whole earth. That thing was done for a betokening and it passed away." Saint Augustine
Resurrexi Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 [quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='24 May 2010 - 08:48 PM' timestamp='1274752138' post='2116898'] And Marx may have been onto something because, there is a grain of truth in that statement, because I think faith should intoxicate us every once in while, at least in my own opinion. [/quote] My God is the God Who can be known through natural reason; My God is not Bacchus, whom the pagans knew in their drunkenness.
ThePenciledOne Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 [quote name='Resurrexi' date='24 May 2010 - 11:22 PM' timestamp='1274754127' post='2116922'] My God is the God Who can be known through natural reason; My God is not Bacchus, whom the pagans knew in their drunkenness. [/quote] So, we are not allowed to feel for God Love? As in the emotion as well as Loving Him through reason etc.? Emotion is a part of being human, and the opium that Marx mentions and the intoxication I attribute to that, is the emotional high some of us receive from say prayer or worship. Sorry, I was not clearer before.
KnightofChrist Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 Rolling round on the floor and speaking gibba jabba is not something that is within reason.
ThePenciledOne Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 [quote name='KnightofChrist' date='24 May 2010 - 11:34 PM' timestamp='1274754863' post='2116938'] Rolling round on the floor and speaking gibba jabba is not something that is within reason. [/quote] Never did I mention either one of those. And if all you are going to use are extreme examples, then please take your generalizations else where.
Selah Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDezBGUuOQI[/media]
sacredheartandbloodofjesus Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 1Cor. Ch.14:1-2 Follow after charity, be zealous for spiritual gifts; but rather that you may prophesy. For [color="#FF0000"]he that speaketh in a tongue[/color], [b][u][color="#00FF00"]speaketh not unto men[/color][/u][/b], but unto God: for no man heareth(or understandeth). [color="#800080"]Yet by the Spirit he speaketh mysteries.[/color] Why has this scripture not been taken into consideration by those of you who beleive the Church has erred in accepting and approving the Charismatic Movement as a legitimate movement of the Holy Spirit, which some of you beleive to be pagan rituals?
Nihil Obstat Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 [quote name='sacredheartandbloodofjesus' date='24 May 2010 - 09:52 PM' timestamp='1274755977' post='2116972'] 1Cor. Ch.14:1-2 Follow after charity, be zealous for spiritual gifts; but rather that you may prophesy. For [color="#FF0000"]he that speaketh in a tongue[/color], [b][u][color="#00FF00"]speaketh not unto men[/color][/u][/b], but unto God: for no man heareth(or understandeth). [color="#800080"]Yet by the Spirit he speaketh mysteries.[/color] Why has this scripture not been taken into consideration by those of you who beleive the Church has erred in accepting and approving the Charismatic Movement as a legitimate movement of the Holy Spirit, which some of you beleive to be pagan rituals? [/quote] The Church does not and cannot err.
sacredheartandbloodofjesus Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='24 May 2010 - 08:35 AM' timestamp='1274708159' post='2116491'] There have been saints throughout the Church's history who had the same gift of tongues that the Apostles had. I hadn't known that until I read it a little while ago. [/quote] I would be interested to know who these Saints were.
Nihil Obstat Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 (edited) [quote name='sacredheartandbloodofjesus' date='24 May 2010 - 09:57 PM' timestamp='1274756247' post='2116981'] I would be interested to know who these Saints were. [/quote] I don't know why you posted an eye-rolling smile, but I just so happen to have a very credible source handy. (Blue lettering is Mr. Birch's work, green is his quoted source.) From Trial Tribulation and Triumph by Desmond Birch: [color="#000080"]St. Vincent Ferrer (14th Century) St. Vincent, who died in 1419, was a contemporary of St. Catherine of Sienna. He was publicly honored as the greatest Canon lawyer of his time as well as one of its greatest theologians. For over 30 years he had and used an equivalent of the gift of tongues almost daily[/color]. [color="#006400"]"It was at Genoa, that people first realized the existence of a daily miracle which had been worked continuously for four or five years... Everywhere he went he was understood by all... Once it was realized what was happening it was not long before this remarkable phenomenon was being discussed with enormous interest right through the town... What language was the preacher using, for all were ready to swear that he was using their native tongue? At last a deputation of the learned men of Genoa put the question to Vincent himself. 'You are all wrong and all right, my friends,' said the friar with a smile, 'I am speaking Valencian (a Spanish dialect), my mother tongue; for, except for Latin and a little Hebrew, I know no other Spanish [sic, language]. It is the good God who has rendered this intelligible to you.' This fact was juridically attested at the process of the saint's canonization by more than a hundred witnesses; they say that it was not merely the general sense that they understood, but they could appreciate every turn of expression... Furthermore, distance made no difference to them, for those on the outskirts of the huge crowds could hear as distinctly as those who were close to the pulpit." [/color] (Angel of the Judgement, A Life of St. Vincent Ferrer, S.M.C., Ave Maria Press, Notre Dame, Indiana, 1953,, pp 137-138.) [color="#000080"]He healed the blind, deaf, lame, those who were possessed, etc. His public miracles were in the thousands. He also specifically preached a call to repentance in order to put off the end times. His travels, prayers, miracles and words to a great measure brought a loose- living age back to a more serious practice of the faith."[/color] There are a handful of other examples of astounding miracles performed through St. Vincent Ferrer, but not relevant to this, no matter how fascinating. One, for instance, would be a dead woman sitting up testify to the truth of his prophecies. Edited May 25, 2010 by Nihil Obstat
Luigi Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 (edited) 1Cor. Chapter 13 verses 1-2 "If I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing." "It sounds to me like St. Paul is just saying "if I am a great public speaker" or "if I preach the faith eloquently." I always find these kinds of arguments interesting because they're based on a literal vs. a metaphorical/literary interpretation of words that we all know but don't understand in the same way. When does one interpret a verse ("This is my body" or ""If I speak with the tongues of men or angels") literally and when metaphorically? Edited May 25, 2010 by Luigi
Luigi Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Selah' date='24 May 2010 - 10:39 PM' timestamp='1274755187' post='2116948'] [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDezBGUuOQI[/media] [/quote] What exactly is this clip supposed to imply? That unholy people use religion to their own purposes? That people who want to bilk the gullible out of hard-earned money will resort to acting as if they're holy? I used to catch a self-proclaimed "preacher" on the radio - Apos-tle Johnny Washington, God's Lasting Messenger (pronounce the T in Apostle) - who ended every broadcast by shouting about whoremongers and women in pants. He would descend into speaking in tongues - it always came out as HA na na na na na. He was clearly a charlatan, and so is this guy. If this were comedy, it would be called his schtick. It clearly has nothing to do with the gifts of the Spirit. Or is it supposed to imply that everyone who speaks in tongues is some sort of raving lunatic? Commentary with posts can sometimes clarify. Edited May 25, 2010 by Luigi
sacredheartandbloodofjesus Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='24 May 2010 - 10:14 PM' timestamp='1274757242' post='2116998'] I don't know why you posted an eye-rolling smile, but I just so happen to have a very credible source handy. (Blue lettering is Mr. Birch's work, green is his quoted source.) From Trial Tribulation and Triumph by Desmond Birch: [color="#000080"]St. Vincent Ferrer (14th Century) St. Vincent, who died in 1419, was a contemporary of St. Catherine of Sienna. He was publicly honored as the greatest Canon lawyer of his time as well as one of its greatest theologians. For over 30 years he had and used an equivalent of the gift of tongues almost daily[/color]. [color="#006400"]"It was at Genoa, that people first realized the existence of a daily miracle which had been worked continuously for four or five years... Everywhere he went he was understood by all... Once it was realized what was happening it was not long before this remarkable phenomenon was being discussed with enormous interest right through the town... What language was the preacher using, for all were ready to swear that he was using their native tongue? At last a deputation of the learned men of Genoa put the question to Vincent himself. 'You are all wrong and all right, my friends,' said the friar with a smile, 'I am speaking Valencian (a Spanish dialect), my mother tongue; for, except for Latin and a little Hebrew, I know no other Spanish [sic, language]. It is the good God who has rendered this intelligible to you.' This fact was juridically attested at the process of the saint's canonization by more than a hundred witnesses; they say that it was not merely the general sense that they understood, but they could appreciate every turn of expression... Furthermore, distance made no difference to them, for those on the outskirts of the huge crowds could hear as distinctly as those who were close to the pulpit." [/color] (Angel of the Judgement, A Life of St. Vincent Ferrer, S.M.C., Ave Maria Press, Notre Dame, Indiana, 1953,, pp 137-138.) [color="#000080"]He healed the blind, deaf, lame, those who were possessed, etc. His public miracles were in the thousands. He also specifically preached a call to repentance in order to put off the end times. His travels, prayers, miracles and words to a great measure brought a loose- living age back to a more serious practice of the faith."[/color] There are a handful of other examples of astounding miracles performed through St. Vincent Ferrer, but not relevant to this, no matter how fascinating. One, for instance, would be a dead woman sitting up testify to the truth of his prophecies. [/quote] Thanks. The eye rolling smiley was more of a smiley looking up at your post. Sorry for the confusion.
Apotheoun Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 [quote name='Luigi' date='24 May 2010 - 09:59 PM' timestamp='1274759965' post='2117052'] 1Cor. Chapter 13 verses 1-2 "If I speak with the tongues of men, and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. And if I should have prophecy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing." "It sounds to me like St. Paul is just saying "if I am a great public speaker" or "if I preach the faith eloquently." I always find these kinds of arguments interesting because they're based on a literal vs. a metaphorical/literary interpretation of words that we all know but don't understand in the same way. When does one interpret a verse ("This is my body" or ""If I speak with the tongues of men or angels") literally and when metaphorically? [/quote] Literally the Greek word ἀγγέλων means messenger, and it is used throughout the LXX Old Testament in connection with both patriarchs and prophets.
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