Selah Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 [quote]No one cared when I posted the words of Pope Paul VI warning against the use of so called Charismatic gifts. [/quote] Please excuse me. I didn't see that. Can you at least try to understand my frustration here? Can you try to see why I get irritated when people blame the devil for everything? Tongues included? You don't know what is happening. It's between them and God. I don't know what I believe about it, but I wouldn't automatically rule out something like that so hastily. That's partially why I left Catholicism. I couldn't stand this "I know this is right" attitude when in reality, you don't. No one does. Hence why it's called "faith" and not "fact". Can you just for a second try to see this from my point of view? Please?
ThePenciledOne Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 [quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='25 May 2010 - 05:36 PM' timestamp='1274819788' post='2117484'] Yes and that is why there is discernment into these spirits are needed, though sadly most people forget about the need for discernment. Of course you are an authority in which we can believe your judgment. And the way things are going, I think the world could use more of a New Pentecost for the Body here on Earth. [/quote] Really a -1? I am asking for more discernment, which requires not only reason, but grace. And then I am asking for the believers here on Earth to have their hearts turned to flame once more and go out and evangelize again??? I apologize if I am getting slightly bitter or angry, but I am finding this blanant opinion based discussion tiresome and when I say something such as this, I find it disheartening for a community of Catholics to disagree with this.
KnightofChrist Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 [quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='25 May 2010 - 04:53 PM' timestamp='1274820788' post='2117507'] Ok, one sentences does not verify. Don't mean to pick on you KoC, but the thing is that this is nothing more than opinion. The Vatican has approved the Charismatic Renewal since the 70s, why people such as yourself are still bickering about it, I do not understand. Fixed. [/quote] If you or anyone else truly wants to understand why Pentecost can only happen once and never again, please listen to this... http://www.sensustraditionis.org/webaudio/Sermons/KC/Disk%201/Pentecost.mp3
Apotheoun Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 [quote name='KnightofChrist' date='25 May 2010 - 02:36 PM' timestamp='1274819771' post='2117483'] The roots of the Charismatic Renewal is found in Protestant Pentecostal heresy. The roots of a tree are just as important as its fruit. If roots are poison, the fruit will be also poison. [/quote] I do not see why this post was given a negative point. I was a member of the Methodist Church, which has connections with the Pentecostal movement, and so I can attest to the fact that the theology underlying Pentecostalism is Protestant, not Catholic.
KnightofChrist Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 [quote name='Selah' date='25 May 2010 - 04:55 PM' timestamp='1274820902' post='2117510'] Please excuse me. I didn't see that. Can you at least try to understand my frustration here? Can you try to see why I get irritated when people blame the devil for everything? Tongues included? You don't know what is happening. It's between them and God. I don't know what I believe about it, but I wouldn't automatically rule out something like that so hastily. [/quote] I've researched this topic numerous and countless times. Again, the devil is behind everything wicked and disordered. Sorry that upsets you. But Satan is very very real and he wishes to devour your soul, as well as mine. He is a real enemy, and we are at war with him. [quote name='Selah' date='25 May 2010 - 04:55 PM' timestamp='1274820902' post='2117510']That's partially why I left Catholicism. I couldn't stand this "I know this is right" attitude when in reality, you don't. No one does. Hence why it's called "faith" and not "fact". Can you just for a second try to see this from my point of view? Please? [/quote] I'm sorry to hear that you've left Mother Church. One can know a truth of Faith that has be revealed. One can also know a historical fact. I understand your point of view, and I am sorry but it is in error. It is in error because it is dipped in relativism, and modernism. The thought that we cannot know the truth clearly or say that another person is in great error when they are in great error.
iheartjp2 Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 (edited) [quote name='KnightofChrist' date='25 May 2010 - 04:54 PM' timestamp='1274820895' post='2117508'] The article posted earlier goes into great detail of how the Charismatic movement began it's roots in Protestant heresy. http://credo.stormloader.com/Doctrine/pentecon.htm [/quote] I'd like to point out that this was written in 1973. It's been over 20 years. Since then, he's probably had a lot of explaining to do. Also, if you look at his page [url="http://credo.stormloader.com/jlindex.htm"]here[/url], you'll see that he and Apotheon should be joined at the hip. So honestly, I'm not surprised by the things he's said now. Not only is he an Eastern Christianity buff, he's a former Eastern Orthodox Christian. He speaks of people leaning on their emotions, well, I can't deny my curiosity as to the existence of some of his own emotions that are linked to this issue as well. Edited May 25, 2010 by iheartjp2
KnightofChrist Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 [quote name='KnightofChrist' date='25 May 2010 - 05:01 PM' timestamp='1274821282' post='2117518'] If you or anyone else truly wants to understand why Pentecost can only happen once and never again, please listen to this... http://www.sensustraditionis.org/webaudio/Sermons/KC/Disk%201/Pentecost.mp3 [/quote] or this one http://www.sensustraditionis.org/webaudio/Sermons/Disk1/Pentecost.mp3
KnightofChrist Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 [quote name='iheartjp2' date='25 May 2010 - 05:11 PM' timestamp='1274821865' post='2117531'] I'd like to point out that this was written in 1973. It's been over 20 years. Since then, he's probably had a lot of explaining to do. Also, if you look at his page [url="http://credo.stormloader.com/jlindex.htm"]here[/url], you'll see that he and Apotheon should be joined at the hip. So honestly, I'm not surprised by the things he's said now. Not only is he an Eastern Christianity buff, he's a former Eastern Orthodox Christian. He speaks of people leaning on their emotions, well, I can't deny my curiosity as to the existence of some of his own emotions that are linked to this issue as well. [/quote] Exactly it's only been 20 years since the 'birth' of the Charismatic Renewal. Its roots are not found in the roots in the birth of the Church but in the 1960's with an influx of Pentecostal heretical teaching.
Apotheoun Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 [quote name='iheartjp2' date='25 May 2010 - 03:11 PM' timestamp='1274821865' post='2117531'] I'd like to point out that this was written in 1973. It's been over 20 years. Since then, he's probably had a lot of explaining to do. Also, if you look at his page [url="http://credo.stormloader.com/jlindex.htm"]here[/url], you'll see that he and Apotheon should be joined at the hip. So honestly, I'm not surprised by the things he's said now. Not only is he an Eastern Christianity buff, he's also a former Protestant. He speaks of people leaning on their emotions, well, I can't deny my curiosity as to the existence of some of his own emotions that are linked to this issue as well (speaking only of James, not Apo). [/quote] I am afraid that Mr. Likoudis and I agree on very little when it comes to theology, but there is one exception . . . we both reject any form of Pentecostalism in the Catholic Church. P.S. - Mr. Likoudis is not a former Protestant; rather, he is a former Eastern Orthodox Christian.
Nihil Obstat Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='25 May 2010 - 04:16 PM' timestamp='1274822219' post='2117540'] I am afraid that Mr. Likoudis and I agree on very little when it comes to theology, but there is one exception . . . we both reject any form of Pentecostalism in the Catholic Church. P.S. - Mr. Likoudis is not a former Protestant; rather, he is a former Eastern Orthodox Christian. [/quote] He seems like a nice guy.
iheartjp2 Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 [quote name='KnightofChrist' date='25 May 2010 - 05:15 PM' timestamp='1274822132' post='2117538'] Exactly it's only been 20 years since the 'birth' of the Charismatic Renewal. Its roots are not found in the roots in the birth of the Church but in the 1960's with an influx of Pentecostal heretical teaching. [/quote] 20 plus 1973 doesn't make 2010. I think you're just spewing out numbers at this point. [quote name='Apotheoun' date='25 May 2010 - 05:16 PM' timestamp='1274822219' post='2117540'] I am afraid that Mr. Likoudis and I agree on very little when it comes to theology, but there is one exception . . . we both reject any form of Pentecostalism in the Catholic Church. P.S. - Mr. Likoudis is not a former Protestant; rather, he is a former Eastern Orthodox Christian. [/quote] Changed it. Sorry! Really? You guys agree on little?! Well, it just goes to show how dissimilar two Mr. I'malwaysrights can be.
ThePenciledOne Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 [quote name='KnightofChrist' date='25 May 2010 - 06:01 PM' timestamp='1274821282' post='2117518'] If you or anyone else truly wants to understand why Pentecost can only happen once and never again, please listen to this... [url="http://www.sensustraditionis.org/webaudio/Sermons/KC/Disk%201/Pentecost.mp3"]http://www.sensustra...1/Pentecost.mp3[/url] [/quote] Ok, so obviously not everyone is going to receive the Holy Spiritin such power and in such security and in such an obvious fashion. I see nothing wrong or anywhere that would not allow for the Holy Spirit to come in a different way. Though this statement may be butchered later. Again, all I can say is that the Vatican has approved the Charismatic Renewal, and that is something I will stand by.
Apotheoun Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='25 May 2010 - 03:19 PM' timestamp='1274822350' post='2117544'] He seems like a nice guy. [/quote] I did not say that he was mean or cruel; instead, I simply said that Mr. Likoudis and I have different views on theology, although we both reject Pentecostalism.
Nihil Obstat Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='25 May 2010 - 04:21 PM' timestamp='1274822494' post='2117551'] I did not say that he was mean or cruel; instead, I simply said that Mr. Likoudis and I have different views on theology, although we both reject Pentecostalism. [/quote] Are any of his books worthwhile reading? I was kind of intrigued because he's written about Eastern Orthodox/Catholic relations, which is a subject that interests me.
Apotheoun Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 [quote name='iheartjp2' date='25 May 2010 - 03:20 PM' timestamp='1274822411' post='2117546'] Changed it. Sorry! [/quote] No problem.
iheartjp2 Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 After discussing this topic, I've come to the conclusion that the more extreme your opinions, the more off track you get, whether they be rooted in good or in evil. I'm taking one out of penciledone's book and just standing on the fact that the Church has done everything short of endorsing it. You may not like it, you may not agree with it, but it's here. [i]Now[/i] I'll say no more.
Apotheoun Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='25 May 2010 - 03:23 PM' timestamp='1274822602' post='2117557'] Are any of his books worthwhile reading? I was kind of intrigued because he's written about Eastern Orthodox/Catholic relations, which is a subject that interests me. [/quote] I have read one of his books on the papacy (the title alludes me at the moment), which I think is a polemical treatise that ignores anything that would speak against the Vatican I definition on papal authority, and I read his book [u]Ending the Byzantine Greek Schism[/u], in which - like in his other books - he attacks Eastern Christian theology (e.g., he rejects the [i]ekporeusis[/i] of the Holy Spirit from the Father alone, and the doctrine of energies, to name just two things). I see no harm in reading his books, although I see no real value in doing so either. Edited May 25, 2010 by Apotheoun
Nihil Obstat Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='25 May 2010 - 04:34 PM' timestamp='1274823298' post='2117582'] I have read one of his books on the papacy (the title alludes me at the moment), which I think is a polemical treatise that ignores anything that would speak against the Vatican I definition on papal authority, and I read his book [u]Ending the Byzantine Greek Schism[/u], in which - like in his other books - he attacks Eastern Christian theology (e.g., he rejects the [i]ekporeusis[/i] of the Holy Spirit from the Father alone, and the doctrine of energies, to name just two things). I see no harm in reading his books, although I see no real value in doing so either. [/quote] Ah, I see. Didn't expect that from his short biography on that website.
Apotheoun Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' date='25 May 2010 - 03:38 PM' timestamp='1274823505' post='2117585'] Ah, I see. Didn't expect that from his short biography on that website. [/quote] He converted in the 1950s and back then the Eastern Catholic Churches were very Latinized, so rejecting Byzantine theology was common for converts from Orthodoxy to Catholicism. Moreover, if my memory serves me, I believe he is Roman Catholic, and not Eastern Catholic.
Resurrexi Posted May 25, 2010 Posted May 25, 2010 (edited) [quote name='iheartjp2' date='25 May 2010 - 02:07 PM' timestamp='1274814479' post='2117379'] Resurrexi, I've seen it said by you that you don't necessarily respect views with which you don't agree. That's fine. You don't need to. What I'm asking is that you at least respect these for whatever they are to you because the Church herself has come out and spoken in favor of them. [/quote] The Church has never spoken authoritatively in favor of practices such as "speaking in tongues" and "being slain in the Spirit". While individual churchmen may have given their personal opinions in favor of the subject, it is important to note the following: The personal opinions of individual churchmen ≠ the teachings of the Church. I have absolutely no respect for practices such as "speaking in tongues" or "being slain in the Spirit," nor do I have any reason to have respect for them. Edited May 25, 2010 by Resurrexi
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