Communion W/out Confession

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='MissScripture' date='25 May 2010 - 10:40 PM' timestamp='1274845201' post='2117993']
What exactly constitutes perfect contrition? I had it explained to me once a long time ago, but I don't really remember/I don't think I really understood what it even meant then. [/quote]

Perfect contrition is sorrow for sin out of love for God.

[quote name='MissScripture' date='25 May 2010 - 10:40 PM' timestamp='1274845201' post='2117993']
And I don't think he was saying that you have to have perfect contrition to be forgive of a mortal sin, just that you need to have perfect contrition to be forgiven of a mortal sin WITHOUT going to confession.[/quote]

Yes, that was what I was saying.

Edited May 26, 2010 by Resurrexi

[Catholic Fox]

[quote name='MissScripture' date='25 May 2010 - 10:40 PM' timestamp='1274845201' post='2117993']
What exactly constitutes perfect contrition? I had it explained to me once a long time ago, but I don't really remember/I don't think I really understood what it even meant then.


[/quote]

It is being sorry for the sin because you have offended God, not because of any fear of punishment.

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='mortify' date='25 May 2010 - 09:47 PM' timestamp='1274842032' post='2117924']
Let me ask another question.

Is there any precident for permitting penitents who are sorrowful, yet did not receive sacramental confession, in receiving the Eucharist? Or is this an innovative practice?
[/quote]


If the person is a Catholic, in good standing with the Church, and is not known to have committed mortal sin without going to Confession, then there is no reason to advise him against receiving. If he has said that he has committed mortal sin and has not gone to Confession, then under no circumstances should he be advised to do such a thing. To advise such would be to put that person's soul in jeopardy, and also your own, if you are the one doing the advising.

I can't imagine a single scenario, at least in our society, in which a person who is guilty of mortal sin could possibly need to receive the Eucharist without first going to Confession. If a person is dying on a cruise ship, and there are no priests on board, and you happen to have a host with you to give him, consider this: it is better for him to die sorrowful without receiving the host than for him to receive It unworthily and not die. It is far worse than that, even, if he died having received It unworthily.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Catholic Fox' date='25 May 2010 - 10:43 PM' timestamp='1274845380' post='2117996']
It is being sorry for the sin because you have offended God, not because of any fear of punishment.
[/quote]

One can be sorry for sin both out of love for God and out of fear of His just punishments. In that case, one would have both perfect and imperfect contrition.

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='Catholic Fox' date='25 May 2010 - 10:43 PM' timestamp='1274845380' post='2117996']
It is being sorry for the sin because you have offended God, not because of any fear of punishment.
[/quote]


Right, while imperfect contrition is being sorry for the sin for another reason, such as fear of punishment.

So, hypothetically, if you were dying, and feared you were in the state of mortal sin, and you were sorry because you knew you were dying and were afraid of going to hell, and you tried to make an act of perfect contrition, but were only capable of imperfect contrition, do you think God would ignore your plea for forgiveness?

I'll check up on it later, but I'm 99% sure that imperfect contrition is sufficient for forgiveness at any time. But we're off-topic. Just because you can trust that God will forgive you if you are sorry doesn't mean you should ever go to Communion without going to Confession first. Confession is the sacrament that Christ instituted so that we could obtain forgiveness. If we're really sorry, whether perfectly or not, we'll go to Confession before receiving.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='fides' Jack' date='25 May 2010 - 10:48 PM' timestamp='1274845690' post='2118000']
I'll check up on it later, but I'm 99% sure that imperfect contrition is sufficient for forgiveness at any time.
[/quote]

Nope.

"Imperfect contrition cannot obtain the forgiveness of grave sins, but it disposes one to obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance." ([i]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/i], no. 1453)

Edited May 26, 2010 by Resurrexi

[MissScripture]

[quote name='fides' Jack' date='25 May 2010 - 11:43 PM' timestamp='1274845381' post='2117997']
If the person is a Catholic, in good standing with the Church, and is not known to have committed mortal sin without going to Confession, then there is no reason to advise him against receiving. If he has said that he has committed mortal sin and has not gone to Confession, then under no circumstances should he be advised to do such a thing. To advise such would be to put that person's soul in jeopardy, and also your own, if you are the one doing the advising.

I can't imagine a single scenario, at least in our society, in which a person who is guilty of mortal sin could possibly need to receive the Eucharist without first going to Confession. If a person is dying on a cruise ship, and there are no priests on board, and you happen to have a host with you to give him, consider this: it is better for him to die sorrowful without receiving the host than for him to receive It unworthily and not die. It is far worse than that, even, if he died having received It unworthily.
[/quote]
I was kind of wondering about that, too. I mean, there must be some sort of scenario, or there wouldn't be this rule, but I can't figure one out. I mean, there was once when I really needed to go to confession, but I seriously could not find a priest (drove to 5 different churches, and they were all not there or busy with funerals or something) and by the end I was pretty distraught, but figured if I died before actually getting a chance to confess, at least God knew I was sincere in wanting to confess, so I might just get extra time in purgatory, and not so much have to go the whole Hell route, but I STILL wouldn't have taken communion without going first to confession, because I still KNEW I was not really in a state of grace. Moral of the story: A situation where this rule could logically be applied does not seem likely.

[mortify]

[quote name='fides' Jack' date='25 May 2010 - 11:32 PM' timestamp='1274844739' post='2117989']
I agree with you, Resurrexi, in that people shouldn't (under any circumstance I can possibly imagine) ever go to Communion in a state of Mortal Sin. My point was that what was said in this forum, (that the intention to confess is sufficient to be forgiven) is flawed.[/quote]

Not merely an intention but perfect sorrow as well, and this does in-fact confer justification outside of the Sacrament. That this is the basis for "not holding one sacrament hostage to another," as one priest told me, is my own speculation.

[quote]However, it is not necessary to have perfect contrition to be forgiven of mortal sin.[/quote]

Perfect contrition is necessary outside of the Sacrament.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='MissScripture' date='25 May 2010 - 10:50 PM' timestamp='1274845810' post='2118002']
I was kind of wondering about that, too. I mean, there must be some sort of scenario, or there wouldn't be this rule, but I can't figure one out. I mean, there was once when I really needed to go to confession, but I seriously could not find a priest (drove to 5 different churches, and they were all not there or busy with funerals or something) and by the end I was pretty distraught, but figured if I died before actually getting a chance to confess, at least God knew I was sincere in wanting to confess, so I might just get extra time in purgatory, and not so much have to go the whole Hell route, but I STILL wouldn't have taken communion without going first to confession, because I still KNEW I was not really in a state of grace. Moral of the story: A situation where this rule could logically be applied does not seem likely.
[/quote]

In such a scenario, one should just make one's best attempt at an act of perfect contrition. If canon law obliges a person to make an act of perfect contrition in certain circumstances (as it does when one has committed a mortal sin but has a grave reason for receiving holy Communion), then it can't be impossible or near-impossible.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='fides' Jack' date='25 May 2010 - 11:48 PM' timestamp='1274845690' post='2118000']
Right, while imperfect contrition is being sorry for the sin for another reason, such as fear of punishment.

So, hypothetically, if you were dying, and feared you were in the state of mortal sin, and you were sorry because you knew you were dying and were afraid of going to hell, and you tried to make an act of perfect contrition, but were only capable of imperfect contrition, do you think God would ignore your plea for forgiveness?

I'll check up on it later, but I'm 99% sure that imperfect contrition is sufficient for forgiveness at any time. But we're off-topic. Just because you can trust that God will forgive you if you are sorry doesn't mean you should ever go to Communion without going to Confession first. Confession is the sacrament that Christ instituted so that we could obtain forgiveness. If we're really sorry, whether perfectly or not, we'll go to Confession before receiving.
[/quote]
I would say that's part of why purgatory exists.

And I think Rexi is right, because I remember a priest once telling me that we're lucky as Catholics, because we only need an imperfect contrition because we have confession. Any other Christian needs a perfect contrition.

And anyway, if we go to communion without going to confession first, couldn't we then be comitting a sin of presumption?

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='25 May 2010 - 10:49 PM' timestamp='1274845798' post='2118001']
Nope.

"Imperfect contrition cannot obtain the forgiveness of grave sins, but it disposes one to obtain forgiveness in the sacrament of Penance." ([i]Catechism of the Catholic Church[/i], no. 1453)
[/quote]


Very well. You've proven me wrong.

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='25 May 2010 - 10:53 PM' timestamp='1274845990' post='2118005']
In such a scenario, one should just make one's best attempt at an act of perfect contrition. If canon law obliges a person to make an act of perfect contrition in certain circumstances (as it does when one has committed a mortal sin but has a grave reason for receiving holy Communion), then it can't be impossible or near-impossible.
[/quote]

Here's the problem I have with the whole thing: what could possibly be construed as a "grave reason for receiving holy communion?" That just doesn't make sense to me.

[mortify]

[quote name='MissScripture' date='25 May 2010 - 11:54 PM' timestamp='1274846043' post='2118008']
And anyway, if we go to communion without going to confession first, couldn't we then be comitting a sin of presumption?
[/quote]

Good question... but I think the point of what I was told by a priest was that I need not deny myself Communion if I was unable to make it to confession. So perfect contrition is not a substitute for the Sacrament, but merely a temporary means allowing me to receive the Eucharist until I offer my confession.

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='MissScripture' date='25 May 2010 - 10:54 PM' timestamp='1274846043' post='2118008']
I would say that's part of why purgatory exists.

And I think Rexi is right, because I remember a priest once telling me that we're lucky as Catholics, because we only need an imperfect contrition because we have confession. Any other Christian needs a perfect contrition.

And anyway, if we go to communion without going to confession first, couldn't we then be comitting a sin of presumption?
[/quote]


Honestly, I think we're all kind of saying the same thing on this page. You can't go to Communion if you have a Mortal Sin on your soul.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='fides' Jack' date='25 May 2010 - 10:58 PM' timestamp='1274846307' post='2118013']
Here's the problem I have with the whole thing: what could possibly be construed as a "grave reason for receiving holy communion?" That just doesn't make sense to me.
[/quote]

If a priest were in the country several hours away from any other priest to whom he could confess, and if the priest had to celebrate a Mass of obligation for the people of the town, I could see that as a grave reason to celebrate Mass without having first confessed a mortal sin he had committed. Obviously, in such a case he would have to make an act of perfect contrition, and then he would have to go to confession as soon as possible. "As soon as possible" is interpreted as being within three days.

Edited May 26, 2010 by Resurrexi

[fides' Jack]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='25 May 2010 - 11:00 PM' timestamp='1274846444' post='2118017']
If a priest were in the country several hours away from any other priest to whom he could confess, and if the priest had to celebrate a Mass of obligation for the people of the town, I could see that as a grave reason to celebrate Mass without having first confessed a mortal sin he had committed. Obviously, in such a case he would have to make an act of perfect contrition, and then he would have to go to confession as soon as possible. "As soon as possible" is interpreted as being within three days.
[/quote]

So, basically, "grave reason" applies to the individual priest, not the lay faithful.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='fides' Jack' date='25 May 2010 - 11:03 PM' timestamp='1274846604' post='2118018']
So, basically, "grave reason" applies to the individual priest, not the lay faithful.
[/quote]

I really only envision it as applying to a priest who has to celebrate a Mass of obligation for the people, but I guess it could maybe apply to laypeople as well in some rare circumstance that I'm unable to come up with.

[IgnatiusOfAntioch]

[quote name='fides' Jack' date='25 May 2010 - 10:00 PM' timestamp='1274846403' post='2118016']
You can't go to Communion if you have a Mortal Sin on your soul.
[/quote]

Yup, that's the bottom line.

[mortify]

[color="#0000FF"][i][size="4"]"Anyone who desires to receive Christ in Eucharistic communion must be in the state of grace. Anyone aware of having sinned mortally must not receive communion without having received absolution in the sacrament of penance."[/size][/i][/color]

Catechism of the Catholic Church, section 1415


That's the closest I could find thus far.

[Rebecca2009]

[quote name='zunshynn' date='25 May 2010 - 09:02 PM' timestamp='1274839341' post='2117867']
This is true, however, it's important to remember that the priest who gave this advice knew the context of the situation, and we do not. It is quite possible that the confessor, given his knowledge of the penitent, may have recognized that full culpability was not involved in this particular person's situation, for whatever reason, even if it was objectively grave matter, in which case he would know if this person should be advised to continue receiving Holy Communion under the circumstances.
[/quote]

Yes, this is along the lines of what my Priest has told me too.
I think what Jesus has shown me is to trust the leadership that He has placed in my life. I can tend to be scrupulous, so I need to trust in His mercy much more than I do. He doesn't want us to be in a constant state of anxiety.