Apotheoun Posted May 26, 2010 Author Posted May 26, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Selah' date='26 May 2010 - 02:44 PM' timestamp='1274906647' post='2118424'] I also don't really feel comfortable with the idea of it happening during Mass. It just doesn't fit. [/quote] I have been to pentecostal/charismatic masses were people spoke in tongues and received "words of knowledge" (after which some members of the congregation said: "The word of the Lord" and "Thanks be to God"), and I felt quite uncomfortable. Edited May 26, 2010 by Apotheoun
Apotheoun Posted May 26, 2010 Author Posted May 26, 2010 [quote name='ThePenciledOne' date='26 May 2010 - 02:47 PM' timestamp='1274906840' post='2118428'] Have you ever read his book? Never said, I don't agree with him I actually do. I am not afraid of using the word. You on the other hand are using it in a loaded and slanted question I feel and if nothing else this poll will create more division, which I don't feel that phatmass needs. So I will retract my vote. Most people on here know where I stand anyway. [/quote] Several years ago when I was studying at FUS for my MA.
Selah Posted May 26, 2010 Posted May 26, 2010 [quote]I have been to pentecostal/charismatic masses were people spoke in tongues and received "words of knowledge" (after which some members of the congregation said: "The word of the Lord" and "Thanks be to God"), and I felt quite uncomfortable. [/quote] But see, if you are receving the Eucharist, you shouldn't be yacking...you should be silent. Maybe in private, but Mass doesn't seem like the right place for it.
Apotheoun Posted May 26, 2010 Author Posted May 26, 2010 [quote name='Selah' date='26 May 2010 - 02:52 PM' timestamp='1274907123' post='2118432'] But see, if you are receving the Eucharist, you shouldn't be yacking...you should be silent. Maybe in private, but Mass doesn't seem like the right place for it. [/quote] I agree. What a person does during private prayer is between him and God.
iheartjp2 Posted May 26, 2010 Posted May 26, 2010 I voted "No" because I believe the term "pentecostalism" to be demeaning, deceptive, and altogether uncharitable. I support the Charismatic Renewal in the Church as it has been tolerated, if not approved, by the Church for the past 30 some years.
fides quarens intellectum Posted May 26, 2010 Posted May 26, 2010 (edited) Sorry, Apo - I didn't vote b/c I wasn't sure what you meant by "Pentacostalism." I didn't realize you were possibly going for Catholic Charismatic Renewal (?). If, though, on second thought, you were referring to "Pentacostalism" in light of Pope John 23's prayer for the Second Vatican Council, I guess I should have voted "yes." oh, well. Edited May 26, 2010 by fides quarens intellectum
Apotheoun Posted May 26, 2010 Author Posted May 26, 2010 [quote name='fides quarens intellectum' date='26 May 2010 - 03:04 PM' timestamp='1274907878' post='2118440'] Sorry, Apo - I didn't vote b/c I wasn't sure what you meant by "Pentacostalism." I didn't realize you were possibly going for Catholic Charismatic Renewal (?). If, though, on second thought, you were referring to "Pentacostalism" in light of Pope John 23's prayer for the Second Vatican Council, I guess I should have voted "yes." oh, well. [/quote] I am sorry that you were unable to vote. Clearly Fr. Walsh, a prominent member of this movement, is unaware of the fact that the term "pentecostalism" is offensive.
sacredheartandbloodofjesus Posted May 26, 2010 Posted May 26, 2010 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='26 May 2010 - 04:08 PM' timestamp='1274908128' post='2118449'] I am sorry that you were unable to vote. Clearly Fr. Walsh, a prominent member of this movement, is unaware of the fact that the term "pentecostalism" is offensive. [/quote] Its not offensive but it can be misleading when not taken in context.
Apotheoun Posted May 26, 2010 Author Posted May 26, 2010 [quote name='sacredheartandbloodofjesus' date='26 May 2010 - 03:15 PM' timestamp='1274908559' post='2118462'] Its not offensive but it can be misleading when not taken in context. [/quote] I am using the term in exactly the same way as Fr. Walsh. Perhaps PTO should not quote him as a source of information any longer.
fides quarens intellectum Posted May 26, 2010 Posted May 26, 2010 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='26 May 2010 - 04:08 PM' timestamp='1274908128' post='2118449'] I am sorry that you were unable to vote. Clearly Fr. Walsh, a prominent member of this movement, is unaware of the fact that the term "pentecostalism" is offensive. [/quote] okay - i am trying to "catch up" via the other thread you referenced. sorry - i'll go back to my little corner now. proceed.
Apotheoun Posted May 26, 2010 Author Posted May 26, 2010 [quote name='fides quarens intellectum' date='26 May 2010 - 03:23 PM' timestamp='1274909021' post='2118467'] okay - i am trying to "catch up" via the other thread you referenced. sorry - i'll go back to my little corner now. proceed. [/quote] No worries. Your contribution to the discussion is appreciated. God bless.
Marie-Therese Posted May 26, 2010 Posted May 26, 2010 I am a former Southern Baptist/Pentacostal. I think that if a person feels led to express these charismatic type experiences in their personal prayer and praise, then that is fine. To each his own. In the context of the Mass, it has no place. The Mass is NOT an individual worship experience, no matter what people think about it. It is the eternal sacrifice of Calvary presented to the Father by His Bride, the Holy Church. That is the difference between our Catholic faith and the typical Protestant mentality. Protestantism finds many people church-hopping because they "aren't getting fed" or "don't get anything out of worship." These are just code words for people who mean they aren't getting the emotional satisfaction out of their particular group. The Mass is not about emotion, although emotional connection to the Mass is very valid and a beautiful thing. Worship is NOT about emotion. It's about WORSHIP. The most boring homily in the most homely church is still, and will always be, about pleasing God and not the congregants. When I am at home, listening to some great worship music, I like to dance and raise my hands, because I feel joyous. I will not do that in Mass.
Apotheoun Posted May 26, 2010 Author Posted May 26, 2010 [quote name='Marie-Therese' date='26 May 2010 - 03:35 PM' timestamp='1274909725' post='2118473'] I am a former Southern Baptist/Pentacostal. I think that if a person feels led to express these charismatic type experiences in their personal prayer and praise, then that is fine. To each his own. In the context of the Mass, it has no place. [/quote] I agree. A person's private devotions are his own business.
Ephrem Augustine Posted May 26, 2010 Posted May 26, 2010 And I agree, the wording of the first question was so confusing that I didn't vote.
Apotheoun Posted May 26, 2010 Author Posted May 26, 2010 [quote name='Ephrem Augustine' date='26 May 2010 - 03:37 PM' timestamp='1274909821' post='2118475'] And I agree, the wording of the first question was so confusing that I didn't vote. [/quote] I am sorry that you were unable to vote. Alas you can file your complaint with Fr. Walsh, one of the sources that TPO quoted.
Ephrem Augustine Posted May 26, 2010 Posted May 26, 2010 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='26 May 2010 - 04:38 PM' timestamp='1274909915' post='2118477'] I am sorry that you were unable to vote. Alas you can file your complaint with Fr. Walsh, one of the sources that TPO quoted. [/quote] Is Fr. Walsh canon or something? He is the only person I have heard call the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Pentecostalism.
Apotheoun Posted May 26, 2010 Author Posted May 26, 2010 (edited) [quote name='Ephrem Augustine' date='26 May 2010 - 03:44 PM' timestamp='1274910259' post='2118484'] Is Fr. Walsh canon or something? He is the only person I have heard call the Catholic Charismatic Renewal Pentecostalism. [/quote] He was quoted by TPO, but evidently Fr. Walsh is in error. Clearly no one should quote him as a source in the future on this issue. It is a fact that this "spiritualist" movement antedates its entrance into the Catholic Church by more than 60 years. It began as a Protestant movement, and as a former Protestant I think it is dangerous because it is founded upon theological presuppositions that in the final analysis are anti-sacramental and anti-Catholic. Clearly some people do not share my concerns, while others (e.g., CatherineM) do share them. One other thing is clear, the movement has divided the Catholic Church, and that cannot be a good thing. Edited May 26, 2010 by Apotheoun
sacredheartandbloodofjesus Posted May 26, 2010 Posted May 26, 2010 [quote name='Marie-Therese' date='26 May 2010 - 04:35 PM' timestamp='1274909725' post='2118473'] I am a former Southern Baptist/Pentacostal. I think that if a person feels led to express these charismatic type experiences in their personal prayer and praise, then that is fine. To each his own. In the context of the Mass, it has no place. The Mass is NOT an individual worship experience, no matter what people think about it. It is the eternal sacrifice of Calvary presented to the Father by His Bride, the Holy Church. That is the difference between our Catholic faith and the typical Protestant mentality. Protestantism finds many people church-hopping because they "aren't getting fed" or "don't get anything out of worship." These are just code words for people who mean they aren't getting the emotional satisfaction out of their particular group. The Mass is not about emotion, although emotional connection to the Mass is very valid and a beautiful thing. Worship is NOT about emotion. It's about WORSHIP. The most boring homily in the most homely church is still, and will always be, about pleasing God and not the congregants. When I am at home, listening to some great worship music, I like to dance and raise my hands, because I feel joyous. I will not do that in Mass. [/quote] I agree wholeheartedly! I too beleive that the Charismatic gifts should not be enacted during the Holy Mass, but if the church were to allow it, then I would have to submit my personal beleifs to that of the Church's beleif.
sacredheartandbloodofjesus Posted May 26, 2010 Posted May 26, 2010 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='26 May 2010 - 04:49 PM' timestamp='1274910559' post='2118490'] He was quoted by TPO, but evidently Fr. Walsh is in error. Clearly no one should quote him as a source in the future on this issue. It is a fact that this "spiritualist" movement antedates its entrance into the Catholic Church by more than 60 years. It began as a Protestant movement, and as a former Protestant I think it is dangerous because it is founded upon theological presuppositions that in the final analysis are anti-sacramental and anti-Catholic. Clearly some people do not share my concerns, while others (e.g., CatherineM) do share them. One other thing is clear, the movement has divided the Catholic Church, and that cannot be a good thing. [/quote] Oh, and I take it the Norvus Ordo Missae has divided the Church aswell. You cant blame the division on the movement, the blame is on the people. Same with the division after Vatican II, you cant blame it on the council it must be blamed on the people who took the Council's teachings the wrong way.
Ephrem Augustine Posted May 26, 2010 Posted May 26, 2010 [quote name='Apotheoun' date='26 May 2010 - 04:49 PM' timestamp='1274910559' post='2118490'] He was quoted by TPO, but evidently Fr. Walsh is in error. Clearly no one should quote him as a source in the future on this issue. It is a fact that this "spiritualist" movement antedates its entrance into the Catholic Church by more than 60 years. It began as a Protestant movement, and as a former Protestant I think it is dangerous because it is founded upon theological presuppositions that in the final analysis are anti-sacramental and anti-Catholic. Clearly some people do not share my concerns, while others (e.g., CatherineM) do share them. One other thing is clear, the movement has divided the Catholic Church, and that cannot be a good thing. [/quote] well you should read my litany of criticisms in the other thread, and I was someone who was involved. I think when I did my own research into the origins of it all, and found the same "anti-sacramental" and "anti-catholic" origins it shocked me enough to go deeper into my faith, and the legit traditions. however I have seen good come from it, (even in me) and IDK, maybe God blesses people despite our human folly.
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