Animal / Human Hybrids

[Ziggamafu]

The poll says it all. Scientists have already engineered living embryos of human / rabbit hybrids (then aborted them). As sick as it is, if something as crazy as that is public domain then I'm not too skeptical that there is a living hybrid in a secret lab somewhere. Makes me wonder. Notice I phrased it as whether or not the spirit should be [i]presumed[/i] (for the sake of the victim of mad science).

I tend toward the idea that evidence of a belief in God or a hope for an afterlife would be sufficient to claim knowledge of a spirit, which is why I added the bonus question about robots.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Ziggamafu

[HisChildForever]

I said "yes" and then "no".

Of course, I suppose it depends on the type of hybrid you are talking about. In my opinion, a hybrid with a soul would be more like a mutant from X-Men - very human, just with "different" qualities and probably an unusual appearance.

I do not believe a robot could have a soul because the robot is not a living organism.

[SaintOfVirtue]

I answered "yes" and then "no" as well. In both cases I find it difficult to believe that a scientist(s) could create life. In most cases they are simply grafting the DNA of two species in the embryo of one specie and then saying the created life. I doubt mankind will ever produce a robot, or a biological experiment that has free will. I say this based on the principle of cause and effect: if we create something we are its "cause" and it is the "effect"; no "effect" can be greater than its "cause".

Having personally dealt extensively with electronics, computers, robots, digital logic, (et cetera) I can assure you that even the most advanced "humanoid" robots are light-years away from even [i]simulating[/i] free will. With the knowledge we have of computers and programming it is impossible to make a robot that can "think" outside the program loop which; is essentially what "free will" would require. If it is pulling all its decisions from program loops its not using free will, merely imitating it.

[KnightofChrist]

yes/no, and yes/no

The human hybrid would have a spirit, but I'm not sure if it would be equal to a full human.

The spirit of the AI would depend upon how it was created. There are some very basic AI now that use the brain cells of mice for motor control. http://www.snotr.com/video/2411

[homeschoolmom]

I refuse to speculate.

[HisChildForever]

One could also argue that the soul given to the robot (I know, it sounds ludicrous) would be a temporal soul.

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='SaintOfVirtue' date='07 June 2010 - 11:53 AM' timestamp='1275926011' post='2125199']
I answered "yes" and then "no" as well. In both cases I find it difficult to believe that a scientist(s) could create life. In most cases they are simply grafting the DNA of two species in the embryo of one specie and then saying the created life. I doubt mankind will ever produce a robot, or a biological experiment that has free will. I say this based on the principle of cause and effect: if we create something we are its "cause" and it is the "effect"; no "effect" can be greater than its "cause".

Having personally dealt extensively with electronics, computers, robots, digital logic, (et cetera) I can assure you that even the most advanced "humanoid" robots are light-years away from even [i]simulating[/i] free will. With the knowledge we have of computers and programming it is impossible to make a robot that can "think" outside the program loop which; is essentially what "free will" would require. If it is pulling all its decisions from program loops its not using free will, merely imitating it.
[/quote]

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/2010/05/scientists-create-first-self-replicating-synthetic-life/

Given that we've already managed to arrange individual atoms to spell "IBM" and already work with nanotechnology, I do not find it implausible that scientists will one day, perhaps a hundred years from now, build a cell from the atomic level.

[Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam]

It is my belief that A.I. could never truly develop intelligence or some kind of mind. The mind does not work in summation like the way a.i. does. where one knows 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 all individually. Rather the mind grasps concepts in such a way that one grasps 5 understands 1-4. This is a very different way of approaching knowledge that a.i. cannot do. Also the mind constantly reshapes the web it makes to understand the world when something new is learned, in computers and a.i. when something new is learned it is simply added to the number set {1,2,3,4,x}.

[Apotheoun]

It would have a soul, but not spirit.

[Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='07 June 2010 - 02:08 PM' timestamp='1275930486' post='2125246']
It would have a soul, but not spirit.
[/quote]

You seem to put spirit above soul in development, I am inclined to go the other way around that animals have spirits but humans have rational souls.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam' date='07 June 2010 - 11:38 AM' timestamp='1275932293' post='2125260']
You seem to put spirit above soul in development, I am inclined to go the other way around that animals have spirits but humans have rational souls.
[/quote]
In Eastern Christian theology the soul is the natural (created) principle of life, and in man this natural principle is rational, which is not the case with lower organisms; while the spirit is the (uncreated) energy of the Holy Spirit that indwells man conforming him to the divine likeness.

[Nihil Obstat]

You know, I'm not sure I want to know the answers to these questions.

[Ziggamafu]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='07 June 2010 - 02:34 PM' timestamp='1275935673' post='2125281']
In Eastern Christian theology the soul is the natural (created) principle of life, and in man this natural principle is rational, which is not the case with lower organisms; while the spirit is the (uncreated) energy of the Holy Spirit that indwells man conforming him to the divine likeness.
[/quote]

That is the same as Western theology, isn't it? Or is this an area in which Eastern theology is prevalent in Western writings? Because most Western theology that I've read distinguishes between the soul and the spirit in the same or similar ways.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Ziggamafu' date='07 June 2010 - 02:23 PM' timestamp='1275942233' post='2125334']
That is the same as Western theology, isn't it? Or is this an area in which Eastern theology is prevalent in Western writings? Because most Western theology that I've read distinguishes between the soul and the spirit in the same or similar ways.
[/quote]
If the West believes that the [i]spirit[/i] indwelling man is the Holy Spirit as energy, i.e., that it is God Himself personally present in man, then East and West are in agreement.

[Mark of the Cross]

Everything that has life has the 'Spirit' of God. Only God can give life, therefore a man made computer is only a reflection of the people who made it. It could never become self aware and it could never exceed the intelligence of the people who made it. The makers are only producing emulators of their own self. As for human animal hybrid, I don't know what is meant by this. If I have a pigs heart valve implanted I don't think this will take away my soul. If a scientist manages to use human DNA to produce a new kind of creature and it lives, then that is evidence that God has given it the 'Spirit of life'. Whether or not he gives it an imortal soul would be pure speculation. I suppose if it develops human attributes such as love, compassion and kindness then it may mean that God has given it the

disclaimer: This is purely a rant on my part and does not in anyway reflect the views of the heavenly establishment.

Edited June 7, 2010 by Mark of the Cross

[toledo_jesus]

So we just recently had scientists introduce an artificial genome into a cell, programming it. Some are calling it the first artificial life form.
I said yes to the first one. I'd consider it a tragically deformed human being.

No to the second one, because I don't want to feel any guilt when Skynet goes live and we have to start popping caps in Terminator chassis.

[ThePenciledOne]

[quote name='toledo_jesus' date='07 June 2010 - 08:22 PM' timestamp='1275952977' post='2125402']
No to the second one, because I don't want to feel any guilt when Skynet goes live and we have to start popping caps in Terminator chassis.
[/quote]

I think I will be ok in my vote of no concerning the robots.

This[img]http://www.stuffwelike.com/stuffwelike/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/terminator.jpg[/img]


Is my support.

[KnightofChrist]

Would Commander Data have a soul if he/it actually existed?

[img] http://www.apennyforthought.com/upload/thought/medium_149.jpg[/img]

[Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='07 June 2010 - 03:34 PM' timestamp='1275935673' post='2125281']
In Eastern Christian theology the soul is the natural (created) principle of life, and in man this natural principle is rational, which is not the case with lower organisms; while the spirit is the (uncreated) energy of the Holy Spirit that indwells man conforming him to the divine likeness.
[/quote]

This understanding of energies doesn't seem to be any different from the scholastic understanding of grace. This energy or (uncreated) indwelling in man of God which conforms him to the divine likeness seems to be indistinguishable from what I have read concerning grace. I assume you would say it complete gratuitous gift of God's self to humanity which is a complete gift that humanity is not due in its humanity

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='07 June 2010 - 05:28 PM' timestamp='1275942486' post='2125336']
If the West believes that the [i]spirit[/i] indwelling man is the Holy Spirit as energy, i.e., that it is God Himself personally present in man, then East and West are in agreement.
[/quote]

This could get very hairy. What exactly do you mean by energy? Couldn't Spirit the way you are using be replaced with the word "grace"? I find in the west, some theologians use the word spirit and soul to denote the difference in spiritual character between human and animals/plants etc. No one would deny that God gives himself personally and makes himself present in man and that the Holy Spirit does this too. This past semester a friend of mine (a Greek Catholic) did his thesis on the essence/energies distinction in eastern theology and i did mine on the relationship between Creation and Grace. We had alot of interesting discussions. Actually he is on the boards and comments from time to time.

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam' date='08 June 2010 - 12:45 AM' timestamp='1275979511' post='2125568']
This understanding of energies doesn't seem to be any different from the scholastic understanding of grace. This energy or (uncreated) indwelling in man of God which conforms him to the divine likeness seems to be indistinguishable from what I have read concerning grace. I assume you would say it complete gratuitous gift of God's self to humanity which is a complete gift that humanity is not due in its humanity.[/quote]
The Scholastics believed in created grace, which is a concept that is completely foreign to the Eastern tradition, but the idea that [i]grace[/i] ( in a general sense, whether it is held to be created as the Scholastics taught, or uncreated as the Eastern Fathers and mystics taught) restores the divine likeness lost in the fall is common to both East and West.