Smoking Weed

[goldenchild17]

Adding to the discussion. From the "catnip" thread :

[quote]CCC 2291 The use of drugs inflicts very grave damage on human health and life. Their use, except on strictly therapeutic grounds, is a grave offense. Clandestine production of and trafficking in drugs are scandalous practices. They constitute direct co-operation in evil, since they encourage people to practices gravely contrary to the moral law.[/quote]

Worthy of consideration, though I think it is too broad and too basic. I don't know if there is a fuller explanation of this passage (I looked in the Compendium but it wasn't much more helpful. I can't say, at this point, that I agree with the statement that "drugs" (if it refers to all drugs) inflict grave damage on the body. And I can't say at this point, that I agree that their use (outside of therapeutic) is a "grave" i.e. potentially mortal offense, unless one was going beyond the occasional use and in small amounts.

There certainly are drugs that are clearly damaging to the body with little to no good benefits (i.e. Meth). But I can't necessarily agree that the same is true of ALL drugs, especially used in small amounts on an occasional basis. Yes, the production and trafficking of drugs is a very sinful practice the way it is now. However (and maybe I'm being too optimistic) but I see legalization as a very reasonable solution to a good deal of this problem.

All in all, I think this section throws around the world "grave" a little too lightly, and doesn't take all considerations into the equation.

[Jesus_lol]

i find it a bit weird when people say "but alcohol is better than drugs..." because alcohol IS a drug. most people dont realize that, they just think of it as a drink that makes them feel good etc, but alcohol is a drug and has many comparable effects to other drugs. as long as alcohol is legal, i see no reason to restrict other drugs that are less potent and dangerous.

[Laudate_Dominum]

[quote name='musturde' date='15 June 2010 - 03:34 PM' timestamp='1276630499' post='2129388']
I saw the scholarly thread on this and had to put this up for debate. I had an INTS class where we had to debate legalization of marijuana and there are a lot of ups including the end of drug trafficking (and drug mules). Also, most medical professionals will say marijuana in moderation is less harmful than alcohol. There's even a group of Police who are fighting for the legalization of this drug because the pros of legalization outweigh the cons (http://www.leap.cc/cms/index.php). [b]I apologize if I broke any rules by debating with a thread in the scholar board[/b] but I believe being quiet on this issue would do no good, especially if the person curious was concerned on the moral gravity of this issue. Anybody agree? Disagree?
[/quote]
Dude, you didn't break any rules at all. I think the issue is highly debatable and I personally don't know what to make of "grave sin" and "weed is a hard drug" type of statements. It is a fascinating question and I'm glad that you started this thread so that it can be discussed at length.

[KnightofChrist]

Drinking alcohol is not a sin so long as you don't get drunk. So in like manner it would seem that perhaps smoking weed is ok so long as you don't get high. But then what would be the point?

[Laudate_Dominum]

[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PCFDRUGS.HTM"]SHOULD 'SOFT' DRUGS BE LEGALIZED?, Pontifical Council for the Family[/url]



"It is true that there is a distinct difference between the use of drugs and the use of alcohol: while a moderate use of the latter as a drink does not offend moral principles, only its abuse can be condemned; instead, the use of drugs is always unlawful because it implies an unjustified and unreasonable renunciation of thinking, desiring and acting as a free person." - Pope John Paul II, [i]Dolentium Hominum[/i], 19, VII, 1992, n. 1

[Hilde]

I hear this issue being discussed more by americans than over here. It's illegal here and there haven't been a lot of discussion about it here that I've heard.

Alcohol is a legal drug, and I don't know much about the difference. What about pot being a so-called gateway drug? Is it a good thing to keep it illegal to prevent the hard drug business flourishing and people getting their lives ruined? And to be a little cynical, leech off of health care and welfare because of their dumb decisions.

And can't the alcohol argument be used in the opposite effect. Bringing up alcohol as a drug might make people think it should be illegal. I dunno.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Laudate_Dominum' date='15 June 2010 - 07:01 PM' timestamp='1276650093' post='2129571']
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/PCFDRUGS.HTM"]SHOULD 'SOFT' DRUGS BE LEGALIZED?, Pontifical Council for the Family[/url]



"It is true that there is a distinct difference between the use of drugs and the use of alcohol: while a moderate use of the latter as a drink does not offend moral principles, only its abuse can be condemned; instead, the use of drugs is always unlawful because it implies an unjustified and unreasonable renunciation of thinking, desiring and acting as a free person." - Pope John Paul II, [i]Dolentium Hominum[/i], 19, VII, 1992, n. 1
[/quote]

thanks for posting. I did read that article... Aside from the fact that I thought it also was completely over-generalizing once again, I'll just say that I really disagree with a lot in there, and if there is anything infallible in any of this, then I'll accept it, but I definitely don't get it.

[goldenchild17]

[quote name='Hilde' date='15 June 2010 - 07:09 PM' timestamp='1276650565' post='2129576']And can't the alcohol argument be used in the opposite effect. Bringing up alcohol as a drug might make people think it should be illegal. I dunno.
[/quote]

I think the difference (in people's mind) is that alcohol is not a sin as long as you don't lose faculties of the mind, but that with drugs it is not a sin unless you do the same. Their argument is that you can enjoy a beer without completely losing control of your mind, but that you cannot do so with drugs, because allegedly you can't gain any of its benefits without being stoned out of your mind. I don't agree that this is true.

But for now I'll just post some more from Jone speaking on the effects of alcohol and its morality, since He said that what pertains to alcohol is relevant to narcotics as well:

[quote]"b) Intemperance in drinking which has as its immediate effect the loss of the use of reason is a graver sin than immoderation in eating.

a) Intoxication that results in a partial loss of reason is only a venial sin.

It may be a mortal sin because of scandal, injury to health, harm to one's family, etc.

B) Intoxication that ends in complete loss of reason is a mortal sin if brought on without a sufficient reason.

Complete loss of reason is presumed in him who can no longer distinguish good from bad, or if, after the drunkenness has passed, he cannot remember what he said or did while under the influence of drink, or if one does a thing which he never would have done when sober.

A sufficient reason to deprive oneself temporarily of his use of reason would be to cure a disease or to counteract blood poisoning and the like. Merely to drive away the blues is not adequate reason."[/quote]

[Marie-Therese]

Most people don't realize that in every single state there is currently a marijuana product available that is 100 percent legal. It is a prescription medication called Marinol, and it is used as an appetite stimulant and anti-emetic (anti-nausea) medication. It is the exact same thing as the active ingredient in marijuana, which is THC, only it is a synthetic version that is regulated by the government. As an oncology nurse I routinely had patients on this medication. Guess what it does? It relieves pain, decreases the symptoms of nausea, and gives people the munchies.

I find it quite interesting that marijuana is decried as a horrible, evil drug when it is used in its regular form, but as long as the government produces a synthetic version of the exact same drug, then it is fine and dandy. To me this is terribly hypocritical.

My position, from the standpoint of a healthcare professional, is that marijuana should be legal in every state at least for the purposes of medicinal use. From a personal standpoint I think that marijuana should be made legal, then taxed and regulated in the same fashion as alcohol and cigarettes. I don't think that the legalization of marijuana would necessarily increase use...I think that if you are going to smoke pot, then you probably will, legal or otherwise. If you have no interest in it, then I don't think people will suddenly develop a rabid desire for it just because it is legal.

I see that marijuana, while being a wonderful drug with numerous medicinal applications, could be a very beneficial crop for the United States. I see benefits on several levels. One, it increases farming by allowing it to be grown in monitored farms. Second, it produces hemp as a byproduct, which is a durable and sustainable natural product that can be used in rope, clothing, shoes, and other consumer products, none of which would be smokable or in any way intoxicating. Third, as a regulated drug, it would produce sales tax and other related tax revenues for local and federal governments. It increases the opportunity for small business growth and increased employment. It also has the added plus of ending a segment of the illegal drug trade, which reduces federal spending on the drug war, prevents crimes related to the drug trade like smuggling, extortion, kidnapping and murder, and decreases the costs of incarcerating people for offenses related to possession.

Of course, these are only my opinions.

[goldenchild17]

+1 for your opinions I definitely agree. And I forgot about Marinol which is a good example of what can be done with it (although I have heard that Marinol doesn't have quite all the benefits as regular cannabis, I could be wrong). Also making it into a tea is an option for those who prefer not to inhale smoke, though I don't know how good it would taste.

Edited June 16, 2010 by goldenchild17

[Luigi]

"(Sorry, but I'm a rabid nonsmoker who would ban tobacco entirely if I had my way. But, since it's legal, I try to put up with it in the most polite way possible.)" - Ignatius of Loyola

I've always found it odd - [i]extremely[/i] odd - that these two opposite trends are in motion simultaneously - smoking is terrible, ban smoking indoors/outdoors/anywhere, tax tobacco products from here to doomsday, eliminate smoking ads, make cigarette companies put warnings on their products and fund anti-smoking campaigns, even though Americans have been smoking since before Sir Walter Raleigh ever set foot on the continent - [i]YO, DUDES! LET'S LEGALIZE SMOKING[/i] (of a slightly different variety)! [i]THE ONLY REASON IT'S ILLEGAL IS THAT A ABUNCH OF UPTAIGHT PURITANS RUN THIS COUNTRY! PERSONAL FREEDON, DUDE - THEY SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO STOP ME FROM DOING WHAT I WANT! WHERE'S THE HARM IN IT, ANYWAY? IT DOESN'T DO ANY GOOD TO OUTLAW DRUGS - LOOK WHAT HAPPENED DURING PROHIBITION?[/i]

Buy a vowel and try to solve this puzzle. Smoking is smoking is smoking. It all has effects. The people who are most oppressive about smoking tobacco (not you specifically, Ignatius - you've declared youre tolerance) are the most supportive of legalizing marijuana. Prohibition didn't work for alcohol and they say it won't work for dope, but they're slowly imposing prohibition on tobacco - es-plain this to me, Lucy!

And don't believe that "medical purposes only" carp, not for a minute. NPR ran a story two or three days ago about college kids in Colorado - nobody buys from drug dealers any more because they all have green cards. I'm sure they all suffer from glaucoma, post-traumatic stress syndrome, or at least test anxiety. It's just a way to slowly legalize dope-smoking.

Really it's the same kinds of contradictions as abortion (kill the babies, but save the baby seals), and the same kinds of tactics (a crack in the foundation here, a hidden agenda there).

It makes me tired.

[ardillacid]

FACT: marijuana is the #1 cash crop in America

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Luigi' date='15 June 2010 - 09:05 PM' timestamp='1276661150' post='2129685']
"(Sorry, but I'm a rabid nonsmoker who would ban tobacco entirely if I had my way. But, since it's legal, I try to put up with it in the most polite way possible.)" - Ignatius of Loyola

I've always found it odd - [i]extremely[/i] odd - that these two opposite trends are in motion simultaneously - smoking is terrible, ban smoking indoors/outdoors/anywhere, tax tobacco products from here to doomsday, eliminate smoking ads, make cigarette companies put warnings on their products and fund anti-smoking campaigns, even though Americans have been smoking since before Sir Walter Raleigh ever set foot on the continent - [i]YO, DUDES! LET'S LEGALIZE SMOKING[/i] (of a slightly different variety)! [i]THE ONLY REASON IT'S ILLEGAL IS THAT A ABUNCH OF UPTAIGHT PURITANS RUN THIS COUNTRY! PERSONAL FREEDON, DUDE - THEY SHOULDN'T BE ABLE TO STOP ME FROM DOING WHAT I WANT! WHERE'S THE HARM IN IT, ANYWAY? IT DOESN'T DO ANY GOOD TO OUTLAW DRUGS - LOOK WHAT HAPPENED DURING PROHIBITION?[/i]

[/quote]


first off, i think you have your demographics screwed up. as far as i know the people who like smoking pot couldnt care less about tobacco. secondly, smoking tobacco is pretty much fine. smoking cigarettes is not the same as smoking tobacco. cigarettes are tobacco plus all the chemicals you lock away from children.

if someone was selling a type of ketchup with drano and arsenic in it, we would try and ban that, we wouldnt try and ban tomatoes.

[ardillacid]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='16 June 2010 - 12:26 AM' timestamp='1276662403' post='2129708']
first off, i think you have your demographics screwed up. as far as i know the people who like smoking pot couldnt care less about tobacco.
[/quote]
Strange, all the pot heads i know also smoke tobacco...

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='notardillacid' date='15 June 2010 - 09:29 PM' timestamp='1276662548' post='2129712']
Strange, all the pot heads i know also smoke tobacco...
[/quote]

by "care less" i meant about banning tobacco. so we agree again




not so much around here, there is some overlap between the two, but not much.

[ardillacid]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='16 June 2010 - 12:30 AM' timestamp='1276662654' post='2129715']
by "care less" i meant about banning tobacco. so we agree again




not so much around here, there is some overlap between the two, but not much.
[/quote]
So you are saying that pot heads could care less about banning tobacco?

If that is the case, I still disagree. Naturally, I have a very localized sample, bu at least americans count more than canadiens

[MithLuin]

Ummm, no, tobacco is not fine/harmless or in any way good for you. Nicotine itself has a significant (and detrimental) effect on the cardiovascular system. Also, it is a highly addictive substance that seems to make tumors grow faster. The tobacco itself can lead to lung cancer by introducing radioactive materials into the lungs. While cigarettes certainly have other harmful ingredients in them...[i]the tobacco itself[/i] is the problem.

[quote]The most harmful cancer-causing substances in spit tobacco are tobacco-specific nitrosamines which have been found at levels 100 times higher than the nitrosamines that are allowed in bacon, beer, and other foods. [b]These carcinogens cause lung cancer in lab animals, even when injected rather than inhaled.[/b]

The juice from the smokeless tobacco is absorbed directly through the lining of the mouth. This causes sores and white patches (called leukoplakia) that often lead to cancer of the mouth.

...

Hookah (or narghile) smoking started in the Middle East. Users burn flavored tobacco (called shisha) in a water pipe and inhale the smoke through a long hose.... It is marketed as being a safe alternative to cigarettes because the percentage of tobacco in the product smoked is low and people think the water filters out the toxins. [b]These safety claims are false. The water does not fiddler out many of the toxins. In fact, hookah smoke contains more toxins such as nicotine, carbon monoxide, tar, and other hazardous substances, than cigarette smoke. Several types of cancer have been linked to hookah smoking. [/b]

...

All forms of tobacco are dangerous. Even if the health risks were smaller for some tobacco products as opposed to others, all tobacco products contain nicotine, which can lead to increased use and addiction. Do not think tobacco is safe in any amount or form.

[url=http://www.cancer.org/docroot/ped/content/ped_10_2x_questions_about_smoking_tobacco_and_health.asp]American Cancer Society[/url][/quote]

I am not saying that one cigarette a week is going to mess you up for life. But I am saying that smoking is one of the most obvious things to shave years off your life. An actuary is going to ask you two primary questions: How many of your grandparents have survived past the age of 80? And...do you smoke? Most people who smoke go through a lot more than a pack of cigarettes in a week.

Smokeless tobacco, etc, is not good for you. It has a serious detrimental effect on your health. Have you ever known someone who died of pancreatic cancer? It's brutal...and using a product like Skoal is linked to increased risk of pancreatic cancer (among other things).

But tobacco is legal (no one is making it illegal, either). The legal restrictions are all aimed at whether or not people should be allowed to introduce cigarette smoke (which contains serious carcinogens) to public spaces and expose others to second-hand smoke (a serious health risk). Currently, you are permitted to harm your own body if you are an adult, but you are *not* permitted to (for instance) expose hospital patients or school students to cigarette smoke. Those restrictions, while stigmatizing smokers (certainly), are aimed at creating healthy environments for others.

[Socrates]

Potheads. . . .

[HisChildForever]

I see a few problems with legalizing marijuana (for the general public, I am not talking medicinal use).

One, adolescents showing up high to class. While there would be an age requirement for purchase like there is for alcohol and cigarettes, marijuana would be more accessible to older siblings and relatives - and I know that plenty of older siblings purchase beer for their younger siblings, so what would be stopping them from doing the same with marijuana? While alcohol is good and healthy when used in moderation (and used maturely), adolescents and young adults in particular often abuse it. The same can be argued for marijuana. There is such a huge problem with underage drinking, do we really want to add another (potential) problem on top of that?

Two, I assume that individuals will be smoking it on the streets like cigarette smokers. I for one cannot stand it when I get a cloud of cigarette smoke blown into my face by a passerby, or when I am walking behind the smoker. To me, the smell of marijuana is nauseating. I would rather have cigarette smoke in my face than that (if I had to choose).

Three, there are so many anti-smoking campaigns for cigarettes. It would send a conflicting message to people. Cigarette smoking is bad and unhealthy, so have a joint instead.

Edited June 16, 2010 by HisChildForever

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='Hilde' date='15 June 2010 - 09:09 PM' timestamp='1276650565' post='2129576']
Alcohol is a legal drug, and I don't know much about the difference. What about pot being a so-called gateway drug? Is it a good thing to keep it illegal to prevent the hard drug business flourishing and people getting their lives ruined? And to be a little cynical, leech off of health care and welfare because of their dumb decisions.
[/quote]

I wonder if making it legal would make matters worse.

Marijuana is a gateway drug because dealers who have marijuana either sell other drugs or know other dealers who sell other drugs. Therefore, other (more dangerous and addictive) drugs become more accessible to the marijuana user.

Dealers are clever. I can see some hiding other drugs in joints, and I can see them lace other drugs with the joints (which already happens actually). So the person strolling down the street smoking some marijuana may be smoking meth or crack at the same time. If marijuana is legal, they look like they are doing nothing wrong. If one person hands another person a joint on the street, who is to say the action is really criminal? It looks like both people are acting in conformity with the law.