I'm Pretty Freaked Out

[mulls]

ok so last night me and a bunch of friends went to wal-mart to buy some candy and clothes and bibles to send to some people in the Dominican Republic. two of my friend work for Young Life, which is a high school ministry, and on campus the Young Life office is in the basement of the Catholic church.


so we go back there to put all the stuff in boxes and hang out. none of my friends are/ever were Catholic, so they wanted to go upstairs and check out the church. so we go up there, and i'm explaining to them about the confessional, misselettes, and othe general stuff, and everything is ok.


but then we go into the room off to the side where the 'blessed sacrament' is held, i forget what it's called....but that's the place for adoration, right? i assumed so because there were a few chairs lined up in front of the box where the sacrament is contained (sorry i forgot the name of that too) and this is the only part of the church that is actually well lit, so i guess it's always open to people.


the big problem is that in this room there was a BIG statue of Mary, about 6.5 feet tall or so. i've seen statues before, but i've never seen a statue that [b]had[/b] [b]a pillow in front of it for kneeling and praying.[/b]


it was actually shocking. i can't believe that people kneel directly in front of a statue to pray. i don't know if im blowing this out of proportion or what, but everyone here always tells me that statues and such are just reminders, like pictures on a wall. but why the pillow for kneeling and praying??


needless to say, this spooked my non-catholic friends, as well as myself. but we hung out in the church anyway, my friend sung amazing grace for us, it was beautiful, and we got the goods all packed up to ship to the Dominican. i just really wish i hadn't seen that statue.


your input please...

[ironmonk]

The statue calls to mind the saint. The statue is undoubtedly blessed. Blessed objects help strengthen our faith.

The statue helps bring people closer to Christ. Statues are used in the bible... see [url="http://www.scripturecatholic.com/sacramentals.html"]http://www.scripturecatholic.com/sacramentals.html[/url]


Ask yourself and your friends if you ever kneel in front of a bible or have a bible infront of you when you pray... are you praying to the bible? Or are you praying to God.

Same thing with Catholics, we kneel infront of statues to show honor to the saints in Heaven, and call to mind the saint and how they lived in Christ. What makes a saint worthy of honor and veneration is their life in Christ. Giving honor to a saint gives the glory to Christ because it was Christ that made the saint a saint.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[Jake Huether]

Don't kneel before your bed anymore...




There is a church near my home that has a similar statue of Christ with a kneeler in front of it.

Would your friends have been spooked at that too?

Is it an issue with kneeling before a statue? Or is it just because it was a statue of Mary?


Also, just logically... If one were to kneel and pray, would the kneeler have to be in front of a black hole for it not to be "idolitry or worship"? Seriously... How far does a kneeler have to be away from any object for one to not presume to be praying to or worshipping the object, whether it be a wall, a window, a tree, or whatever?


Mulls,

I truly hope that you and your friends can reconcile this missunderstanding.

God bless you.

[the lumberjack]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Apr 15 2004, 09:35 AM'] The statue calls to mind the saint. The statue is undoubtedly blessed. Blessed objects help strengthen our faith.

The statue helps bring people closer to Christ. Statues are used in the bible... see [url="http://www.scripturecatholic.com/sacramentals.html"]http://www.scripturecatholic.com/sacramentals.html[/url] [/quote]
those scriptures I've seen used have nothing to do with the New Testament.

how you can TWIST scripture, ESPECIALLY the OT, to use it for your own benefit, is totally mindblowing.

the OT Scriptures that the Catholic church uses to justify your statues are totally out of line, especially since there is no instance of that type of thing in the New Testament... UNLESS you speak of the time in Acts where the Silversmiths that made statues to the pagan goddess Diana... then yeah, I can see why you make statues.

blessed objects bring us closer to God?!?!?

And Colossians 1:15....PLEASE don't tell me that you or your blessed church are interpreting the LITERAL image of Christ being the face of God to mean that you can build cold dead statues and have those represent Christ.


this is what I'm talking about, Brother Adam...

[ironmonk]

lumb,

How do you know what is being twisted? Are you infallible? You twist the scriptures bro... we have what has been taught for 2000 years and you STILL FAIL to provide ANYTHING to back what you claim. YOUR "faith" started with YOU, NOT with Christ.

First off, the Catholic Church uses the same OT as the Aposltes and Christ and EVERY Christian until 1611 AD.

Here I began to think you were sincere in your questions... Guess I was wrong.

You really should start studying Christian history... starting in the 1st century... not the 17th. Your ignorance of Christian history and the bible do not help your arguements.

The New Testament DOES NOT mean that we are not to follow the OT. The Christian faith is the new and improved Jewish Faith... There were not many changes that Christ set forth.... i.e. Turn the other cheek, and one wife instead of many.

NO ONE IS PRAYING TO THE STATUE SO WHY DOES IT MATTER THAT THERE IS A STATUE?!

You need to do some homework because you are just wasting everyone's time.
You are wrong about everything you attack the Church on. It's a shame that your pride blinds you, thinking yourself wise - when you haven't even studied.


God help you,
ironmonk

[myduwigd]

Lumberjack-do you ever use medidation to worship? when you are about to go talk to someone about something important, do you conjure up a picture of them in your mind? its exactly teh same thing as havinga statue in front of you. CAtholics ask Mary to pray for them, I dont care what you think about that (asking saints to pray for us...), if we have something to look at, a statue gives us an image of what she looks like, it is easier to meditate and talk to her, same with Christ statues and crucifixes. A crucifix is a reminder of the cross, it isnt the actual cross itself.
oh yes, and about the OT, the NT often refers back to the OT (Hebrews 9). The OT prophesies the coming of Christ and his death. Plus, you cant null everything that OT says ie, the Commandments, the only things that are to be changed are made explicitly clear by Christs teachings (no more need of animal sacrifices..)
luv ya in Christ

[Cesar624]

I don't see why something like this would freak you out. Since you already know that us Catholics may pray IN FRONT of a statue, but NEVER TO a statue...what's the problem? All it is is a visual to keep your mind focused. Why are Protestants so afraid of our statues? I really don't understand. I once brought one of my Protestant friends to my church, and she was like "The statues are scary, they look like they're watching me." I mean puhlease! The only physical object inside of a Church is the Eucharist, since we believe that it IS the body, blood, soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ.

[myduwigd]

watch your language Iron Monk! you just pretty much claimed that Lumberjack is not a Christian because he is not Catholic, how dare you.
[quote]YOUR "faith" started with YOU, NOT with Christ. [/quote]
I think that you need to get your understanding of Protestantism corrected!
yes indeed, I am Catholic, hardcore.
Luv ya brother

[God Conquers]

I can't imagine how someone's faith could be SO weak that they believe that anything as simple as a statue could make them turn their attention off of God. Or make them worship it.

I'm CONFIDENT that regardless of where I am, where my eyes are, where I'm msitting standing or kneeling, that my prayers are recieved by God. It makes no difference whether I have a Bible, a Cross, a Crucifix, Nothing, or 100 statuess of Saints in front of me.

I lie. It does make a difference, because the statues and other symbols help remind me of God, how awesome He is, and How much I should love Him.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='myduwigd' date='Apr 15 2004, 01:18 PM']watch your language Iron Monk! you just pretty much claimed that Lumberjack is not a Christian because he is not Catholic, how dare you.

I think that you need to get your understanding of Protestantism corrected!
yes indeed, I am Catholic, hardcore.
Luv ya brother[/quote]
How dare you?

I think it's you who need to get your understanding of prot corrected.

Lutherean faith is built on Luther, it bares his name.

lumber's faith is built on him, he has claimed so himself, his faith is his beliefs, not those set forth by Christ.

How dare you.

[willguy]

mulls,

Most Marian Shrines (and churches with side chapels) will have kneelers in front of statues. As Cesar said, I'm surprised that this shocked you.

[Jake Huether]

myduwigd,

Welcome to Phatmass. I know you are pretty new here, so I must let you know. Ironmonk has been at Phatmass for over a year (quite possibly more than 2). Lumberjack has also been here for a long time.

We know eachother pretty well. LJ knows Ironmonk and Ironmonk knows LJ. And they both know me.

There is no reason to use "how dare you", when you don't know the depth of the debate.



Now, to LJ,

There was no big time warp snap flash change when Christianity began. It was simply the comletion of the coming of the Messiah. Like when a street changes names. It's the same street, maybe an extra lane or something. Jesus didn't tell the Apostles to stop making images. He didn't tell them to tear down all the Temples that were made during OT times. He didn't tell them to dress differently. He didn't tell them to reject their Jewish heratage. In fact, if I were to guess, if there were any Christian Temples built in the first century they'd probably reflect the OT quite exact.

Why this fixation that the OT is so distant. The Apostles didn't reject the OT. It's in the Bible ya know.

Here's some things from the NT. Many of the desciples would wait for Peter's SHADOW to pass over them, that they might be healed! The faceclothes of the Apostles were used to heal people! Shreak! Oh my! Is that Idolatry? NO! So Biblically one can use the faceclothe of an Apostle to cure someone, but one cannot make a statue of a Martyr to venerate them?

LJ, I truly hope, for your own benefit, that you stop trying to FIND errors in our Faith, and start learning from what we tell you.

[myduwigd]

If Protestants base their faith on Luther and not Christ then how can they be considered Christians. Protestants are solely Biblical, hence i guess i just dont understand how it can be solely Luther and not Christ at all. perhaps their interpration is based on themselves, but not cleft from Christ's teachings. Just because you are friends does not mean that you have the right to claim that he is not a Christian.

Edited April 15, 2004 by myduwigd

[ironmonk]

[quote name='myduwigd' date='Apr 15 2004, 01:56 PM'] If Protestants base their faith on Luther and not Christ then how can they be considered Christians. Protestants are solely Biblical, hence i guess i just dont understand how it can be solely Luther and not Christ at all. perhaps their interpration is based on themselves, but not cleft from Christ's teachings. Just because you are friends does not mean that you have the right to claim that he is not a Christian. [/quote]
All who left the Catholic Church to start their own church (faith) can be see in Acts 20:30.

The technical definition of a Christian is someone who follows the way of Christ. Luther followed the way of luther. Presbyterians follow the way of Knox. etc... There are true believers in them, and they are Christian by desire if they search out God with a sincere heart.

Those who follow any other way that came after 33 AD do not follow Christ's way. The oldest of the non-Catholic churches that wish to be called Christian is about 500 years old. How are they not counted in Acts 20:30?

One Faith... 33 AD
2 faiths 1517 AD
34,000 faiths 2002 AD

How are 34,000 different faiths the one faith of Christ?


[b]St. Augustine[/b]
City of God -Book 18
CHAPTER 51 -- THAT THE CATHOLIC FAITH MAY BE CONFIRMED EVEN BY THE DISSENSIONS OF THE HERETICS.
[b]But the devil, seeing the temples of the demons deserted, and the human race running to the name of the liberating Mediator, has moved the heretics under the Christian name to resist the Christian doctrine,[/b] as if they could be kept in the city of God indifferently without any correction,[b] just as the city of confusion indifferently held the philosophers who were of diverse and adverse opinions[/b]. [b]Those, therefore, in the Church of Christ who savor anything morbid and depraved, and, on being corrected that they may savor what is wholesome and right, contumaciously resist, and will not amend their pestiferous and deadly dogmas, but persist in defending them, become heretics[/b], and, going without, are to be reckoned as enemies who serve for her discipline. For even thus they profit by their wickedness those true catholic members of Christ, since God makes a good use even of the wicked, and all things work together for good to them that love Him. For all the enemies of the Church, whatever error blinds or malice depraves them, exercise her patience if they receive the power to afflict her corporally; and if they only oppose her by wicked thought, they exercise her wisdom: but at the same time, if these enemies are loved, they exercise her benevolence, or even her beneficence, whether she deals with them by persuasive doctrine or by terrible discipline. And thus the devil, the prince of the impious city, when he stirs up his own vessels against the city of God that sojourns in this world, is permitted to do her no harm. For without doubt the divine providence procures for her both consolation through prosperity, that she may not be broken by adversity, and trial through adversity, that she may not be corrupted by prosperity; and thus each is tempered by the other, as we recognize in the Psalms that voice which arises from no other cause, "According to the multitude of my griefs in my heart, Thy consolations have delighted my soul." Hence also is that saying of the apostle, "Rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation."

[myduwigd]

so, where their beliefs coincide with the Catholic faith, and hence CHrists, they are correct and practicing Christians? you knwo how many people would smack me over the face for saying that? interesting...

Edited April 15, 2004 by myduwigd