I'm Pretty Freaked Out

[willguy]

[quote]yea, God bless. how can you say that after you say things like the above?

i know you were speaking about lumberjack, but that means that's what you also believe about me.

i give myself credit for sticking around whenever i hear something like this. it's a good thing that there's catholic on this board who are just as willing to try and understand me as i am to them. they are the only reason i stay.
[/quote]

mulls,

Would you sauy that Catholics have a faith based entirly on Christ, or is our faith based on other things as well (in your opinion). I'm gonna guess you'd say the later. So why are you offended when we express that we feel the same about you?

[mulls]

[quote name='willguy' date='Apr 15 2004, 03:22 PM']
mulls,

Would you sauy that Catholics have a faith based entirly on Christ, or is our faith based on other things as well (in your opinion). I'm gonna guess you'd say the later. So why are you offended when we express that we feel the same about you? [/quote]
i would say you're trying your best, doing what you know to be true, but much of which i would disagree with.


especially from being on this board for awhile, i would never say that you aren't trying to follow Christ with your heart.

never.


[quote]I'm gonna guess you'd say the later[/quote]


yea, well we all know what happens when people assume right?


you like telling teaching protestants your side of the story, but have no desire whatsoever to hear the other side. i don't care whether you believe the other side or not, as a catholic you're not supposed to. but have respect for people, and DON'T EVER question my faith in Christ. ever. please.

[marielapin]

Now that I think about it more...

Is it the kneeling

or the pictures and statues

or the kneeling + pictures and statues that bugs you?

How far away from a kneeler should a picture or statue be?

What about kneeling by your beside? Do you ever pray and have your Bible in front of you? What about a cross? How is this different?

Just trying to get some insight.

[mulls]

its the kneeling in front of the statue.

don't give me that 'how far away should the kneeler be' stuff. it's right in front of the statue, meaning you are supposed to kneel in front of the statue directly.

i will never ever understand this.

[God Conquers]

But how is it different from kneeling in front of any other inanimate object? Even the Bible?

[Archangel]

Does anyone kneel at a cemetery when they visit a deceased friend, relative, etc.?

[ironmonk]

[quote name='mulls' date='Apr 15 2004, 04:05 PM']
yea, God bless. how can you say that after you say things like the above?

i know you were speaking about lumberjack, but that means that's what you also believe about me.

i give myself credit for sticking around whenever i hear something like this. it's a good thing that there's catholic on this board who are just as willing to try and understand me as i am to them. they are the only reason i stay. [/quote]
The problem with what you read is that you are seeing one line and ignoring the others that explain it more fully.

Reread it all. Those who think that they are being a true Christian and living the way God wants them to are Christian by desire. They are counted in the body. Even though they have errors.

There can be only one truth. There is only One True Faith. Seeing that no one was a faith unto them selves until the last thirty years or so, we can be sure that bible alone is not the way of Christ. As attested in the bible and the fact that the NT wasn't around as Scripture until around 400 AD, and the fact that people couldn't read and there was no printing press for 1600 or so years.

How can bible alone be what Christ taught when the bible has written in it the importance of the Church?

How can someone follow the way of Christ if they created their own way that is not from the group of disciples that Christ established?

If you go by bible alone, you are not following the way of Christ, if I'm wrong, please show me with the bible where it says "bible alone". Please show me how Christians learned of the bible during the first 1600 years of Christianity.

If you cannot do that, maybe sit back, and really think how can you be following Christ's way if the first Christians had a different faith than you.

Out of Charity we must correct our brethern. If the first Christians went by bible alone, I have not been able to find it anywhere in history.

Now, we ask, what does it mean that people today go by bible alone, and the first Christians did not go by bible alone?

Well, the first Christians had a fresh faith in Christ. It was one faith. It was unified. They all taught One Gospel. Since bible alone was not any part of the Gospel of the first Christians, how then is bible alone the way set forth by Christ.

I'm not trying to beat you over the head with this, but these are questions that if you are on the right path, you should be able to answer for us. Because if you are on the right path, then that means that I'm on the wrong, and I want to be right.

My goal is to come closer to Christ; to know Christ's full truth; to be part of the One Faith established by Christ in 33 AD. From John's Gospel we know that the faith will grow, but it will not change. The Holy Spirit teaches the Church after Christ leaves. So, what church of today can be the same Church of 33 AD.

It will have to have a few things to back it up....[list]
[*]Be the oldest
[*]Trace itself back to 33 AD
[*]Show a harmony with both the old and new testaments
[*]Be built on Peter
[*]Have the power to forgive sins
[/list]

God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited April 15, 2004 by ironmonk

[ironmonk]

What really kills me is that you say that it freaked you out?

You said you were Catholic... you've been here this long... haven't you seen the whole idoltry attack covered in detail.

Here are a few articles...
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Saint_Worship.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Saint_Worship.asp[/url]
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Do_Catholics_Worship_Statues.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Do_Catholi...hip_Statues.asp[/url]
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp[/url]
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Intercessi..._the_Saints.asp[/url]
[url="http://www.scripturecatholic.com/saints.html"]http://www.scripturecatholic.com/saints.html[/url]
[url="http://www.scripturecatholic.com/sacramentals.html"]http://www.scripturecatholic.com/sacramentals.html[/url]


And no one has a right to say it's wrong because it does not say it's wrong in the bible. No one is worshiping the statues. Please read the articles.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[mulls]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Apr 15 2004, 04:43 PM']
I'm not trying to beat you over the head with this, but these are questions that if you are on the right path, you should be able to answer for us. Because if you are on the right path, then that means that I'm on the wrong, and I want to be right. [/quote]
there's nothing in my life telling me that i'm NOT on the right path.


i couldn't be leading the life than i am right now without the Holy Spirit.

[mulls]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='Apr 15 2004, 04:20 PM'] But how is it different from kneeling in front of any other inanimate object? Even the Bible? [/quote]
lol, i've never seen anybody put a kneeler in front of a bible with the intention to pray in front of it. or ask for its interecession.


you say that statues help remind you of Christ. that sounds like more than an 'inanimate object' to me. it has a purpose....which is to be prayed in front of (at least for the statue in question).

[theculturewarrior]

Are you scrupulous, Mulls? What difference does it make if I kneel before a statue of a saint? Do you think we don't [i]know[/i] they are statues? Do you suppose that we are going to start sacrificing to the statues? We aren't going to, we do know, and our prayers are directed to God.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='mulls' date='Apr 15 2004, 06:08 PM'] there's nothing in my life telling me that i'm NOT on the right path.


i couldn't be leading the life than i am right now without the Holy Spirit. [/quote]
Please show me how it's the right path.

Looking at the good or bad of our lives is not a guidline to know if the Holy Spirit is in it.

The Holy Spirit calls to all men. Some don't listen, and some listen to only what they want to hear.

You are here for a reason... I assume that you want to be of the one faith established by Christ, right?

The only way we can know if we are in the one faith is to study from 33 AD on. That is where we need to start. We need to find out what the Christians that were actually taught by the Apostles thought of the various Scriptures, what oral traditions that they handed down as the bible tells us they did.

[b]Proverbs 14:12 [/b]Sometimes a way seems right to a man, but the end of it leads to death!


With what the Apostles tell us in this:

[b]Acts 20:30 [/b]
And from your own group, men will come forward perverting the truth to draw true believers away after them.


So we must find that first group.

We know that first group did not go by bible alone. Please show me where it changed.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[willguy]

[quote name='mulls' date='Apr 15 2004, 03:29 PM'] i would say you're trying your best, doing what you know to be true, but much of which i would disagree with.

especially from being on this board for awhile, i would never say that you aren't trying to follow Christ with your heart.

never. [/quote]
I would say the same about you. You are trying to follow Christ. However, you are letting the ideas of men like Luther and your own personal interpretations get in the way. Likewise, most Protestants would say that Catholics are trying to follow Christ but letting the ideas of Rome get in the way.

[quote]yea, well we all know what happens when people assume right?

you like telling teaching protestants your side of the story, but have no desire whatsoever to hear the other side. i don't care whether you believe the other side or not, as a catholic you're not supposed to. but have respect for people, and DON'T EVER question my faith in Christ. ever. please.[/quote]

I said it was a guess, and technically you didn't answer the question. As for me having no desire to hear the other side, that hurts. I've had many conversations with Protestants I know. I met with a group of Mormon missionaries probably more than a dozen times to learn about what they believe. Don't EVER tell me that I don't listen.

[Fiat_Voluntas_Tua]

Did Christ intended to start over 34,000 different "churches"? How can each "church" claim to be the Church of Christ when it was founded by a mere man. The Catholic Church was instituted by Christ, no mere man, 100% man and 100% divine. Christianity was meant to have One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church: The Catholic Church.

Pax et Agape per Maria, Andy

[Dave]

[quote name='mulls' date='Apr 15 2004, 05:11 PM'] you say that statues help remind you of Christ. that sounds like more than an 'inanimate object' to me. it has a purpose....which is to be prayed in front of (at least for the statue in question). [/quote]
Wouldn't it make sense to pray in front of anything that helps lift our minds to Christ? As many people have already stated, it's not like we're praying TO it.

[willguy]

mulls,

would you have a problem with someone reading a Bible passage of the Crucifixion before they pray, forming a mental image of the crucifixion, and then praying to Christ? Why then do you object to, instead of a mental image, having a physical image (or statue) of the Crucifixion in front of you when you pray?

[morostheos]

I know lots of protestants with pictures of Jesus, angels, etc. in their houses. Almost all Christians use crosses. If there is a large cross at the front of a protestant church, does that mean all of them are committing idolatry? They are standing in front of it and praying, and singing facing it. How is the cross any different than statues? I don't see any difference, except one has more details to help us visualize better.

The thing about it is, God created us as both physical and spiritual beings. So why should he only want us to relate to him only on a spiritual level and cut out any physical reminders? They are there to help us stay focused, to not get distracted, and to help us give more glory to GOD. Why do children find it easier to read picture books? Because they are just learning to read and need reminders as to what the words mean. Why do we find it easier to pray with statues and pictures? Because we are young spiritually, are learning to unite our wills with God's will, and need help staying focused on what God is really all about.

[CatholicAndFanatical]

[quote name='mulls' date='Apr 15 2004, 03:05 PM']











yea, God bless. how can you say that after you say things like the above?

i know you were speaking about lumberjack, but that means that's what you also believe about me.

i give myself credit for sticking around whenever i hear something like this. it's a good thing that there's catholic on this board who are just as willing to try and understand me as i am to them. they are the only reason i stay. [/quote]
Mulls,

[quote]
"The truth hurts doesnt it"
[/quote]

Was directed to MyDuwigd when he/she said that their face would be smacked for saying this. So take punishment for the truth, there is grace in that.


[quote]
So yea, his faith is on him, not Christ.
[/quote]

was to lumberjack because he has no foundation to base his faith on except the Bible itself. This is unbiblical in itself.


[quote]
God Bless
[/quote]

And I truely do mean this by the bottom of my heart. I pray he blesses everyone here. And opens the eyes of those blinded by pride and confusion.


now mulls I am glad you hang around here. I in no way meant disrespect, for I truely believe that you are trying to seek out the truth and get a better understanding of not only the Catholic Church, but a closer relationship with Christ. As for trying to understand you, I already know I can understand where you are coming from in some of your beliefs since I was a pentecostal until 4 years ago. So I do know what my pentecostal church believed anyway, and know I know what the Catholic Church believes. Looking at the two side by side, there is no comparison. The Catholic Church holds more truth hands down both Historically and Scripturally.

Dont stay too upset with me mulls. I like you - i come off bad sometimes, Im horrible with words sometimes just ask my kids mom..(ugh! hell hath no fury...)

God Bless you mulls.

[Zoticus]

You say we pray in front of statues, and idolize the statues, yet if we are offering our prayers to God, that would be condricticting. Have you never seen a cross in the spotlight of a church, during the whole mass. Are we celebrating mass for that cross. My Catholic Church has a cross raised high ont he wall, behind the alter. So are we all performing mass for the crucifix? Of Course not! Its a memorial sign. Prayers are accepted, and any tool that helps someone pray I believe is good. Besides, Catholics, protestants, we don't have to prove ourself to anyone. I mean, if you want to believe we are worshiping a statue, and in your own narrowmindess- do so. However, our Lord knows our pure, true intentions, and recieves are prayers on that, not other's people though on whats "right" and whats "wrong".

Now, on the Protestant topic. I have some protestant friends, and each vary. Just because they are protestant, does not mean they do not love or do not have faith in christ. HOWEVER,when they start ridiculing the Catholic Church, then actually, then are ridiculing the works of the Holy Apostles, and our Savior, Jesus Christ. HE set up this church.

You say protestants go straight by the bible a few pages back, well think about it. One of the reasons some Protestant Religions were taught is because they didn't like the laws of scripture, and teachings the Catholic Church has. The Apostles didn't start 12 different churches, they did one church, and it is built ever so strong.

I like to think as the Protestant Religion as my pastor would say, "Picadilly Catholicisim" You pick what you want about your religion, and worship that. Not the good and the bad. When something conflicted, they changed it. Our church was founded under One God, with one meaning, with one pope. Now, lets lok what the ONE church has turned into. I do not believe if you are protestant you are not Christian, but I do find you are wrong to critize our church, and our doctrine, for the simple fact the Son of God established our religion. Now if you have a problem with his rules, and ways, take it up with a man named Jesus.


-In Him Always
Zoticus

[frozencell]

[quote]And Colossians 1:15....PLEASE don't tell me that you or your blessed church are interpreting the LITERAL image of Christ being the face of God to mean that you can build cold dead statues and have those represent Christ.[/quote]

This can actually be cleared rather simply by this:

HELP FOCUS OUR ATTENTION on Christ, not REPRESENT Christ Himself.