I'm Pretty Freaked Out

[ironmonk]

[quote name='myduwigd' date='Apr 15 2004, 01:56 PM'] If Protestants base their faith on Luther and not Christ then how can they be considered Christians. Protestants are solely Biblical, hence i guess i just dont understand how it can be solely Luther and not Christ at all. perhaps their interpration is based on themselves, but not cleft from Christ's teachings. Just because you are friends does not mean that you have the right to claim that he is not a Christian. [/quote]
His faith is built on his beliefs, not on what Christ taught.

Truth gives me the right to proclaim what is True.

Those who go soley by the bible are not following Christ's way. Christ's way is to listen to His Church.

The NT was not considered Scripture by all until 400 AD. Most people could not read nor afford a bible until the last few hundred years.

The ONLY reason why we know of Christ is because the Catholic Church teaches Christ's way. The bible says that anyone who leaves the group will be wrong to do so and do so on their own destruction.. Acts 20:30.

Christ did not say write a book, He said preach and make disciples... the disciples of Christ are the Catholic Church.

The non-Catholic churches have some of the truth, and are full of errors. A house divided falls.

Christian = Catholic = Christian

protestant = protest Catholicism, therefore they protest Christianity. They accept the teachings of men, luther, knox, smith, etc... not the complete teaching of Christ.

Though there are prots that believe that they are serving God the way God intended, they are Catholic by desire. They must search out God with a sincere heart... not one of bigotry. Many anti-Catholics I deal with believe I know nothing about the Catholic Church. They tell me I'm wrong and say that every Catholic source that I send them is wrong. Those people seem not to be searching with a sincere heart... they are like the pharisees who wanted to keep their power at the time of Christ. They feed on hate and rumors. They care not about the truth. People like Jack Chick, Rick Jones, Ian Paisley, etc....

God Bless,
ironmonk

[CatholicAndFanatical]

[quote]
so, where their beliefs coincide with the Catholic faith, and hence CHrists, they are correct and practicing Christians? you knwo how many people would smack me over the face for saying that? interesting...

[/quote]

Truth hurts doesnt it? Its not the fact that were saying they are not Christians, but that they chose to stand up against the Church Christ founded, the Catholic Church. A true Christian, meaning follower of Christ, would want to be 100% apart of what Christ built and wanted.

LumberJack, claims to be apart of NO denomination, but rather a follower of Christ. Just him and his bible, thats all he says he needs. So yea, his faith is on him, not Christ. Ironmonk had it right.


As for the Statues and a kneeler. I can understand your issue Mulls, when I first came into the Catholic Church 4 years ago, I too kinda felt uncomfortable. But the graces you get by asking our Blessed Mother to help you and pray to Her Son for you is awesome!

You will find things like this alot, but remember, its not the Statue itself that has power or anything. But who is signifies and represents that does.

Just like when I pray for you to Jesus, it doesnt lesson Jesus's glory, but enhances it. Plus, Mary said that HER Soul Magnifies the Lord...so through MARY we see a magnification of JESUS. She always leads us to Him.

God Bless

[M.SIGGA]

You've really never been to a Catholic Church and seen a place to kneel in front of a statue? It sounds like the parish just didn't have any kneelers so they improvised. Kneeling was tossed out and standing was replaced as the correct posture for prayer after the Reformation, but Catholics still kneel - and you already know we ask prayers from the Communion of Saints - so put 2 and 2 together and...

[mulls]

[quote]Truth hurts doesnt it?[/quote]



[quote]So yea, his faith is on him, not Christ.[/quote]



[quote]God Bless[/quote]




yea, God bless. how can you say that after you say things like the above?

i know you were speaking about lumberjack, but that means that's what you also believe about me.

i give myself credit for sticking around whenever i hear something like this. it's a good thing that there's catholic on this board who are just as willing to try and understand me as i am to them. they are the only reason i stay.

[marielapin]

[quote name='mulls' date='Apr 15 2004, 10:26 AM'] but then we go into the room off to the side where the 'blessed sacrament' is held, i forget what it's called....but that's the place for adoration, right? i assumed so because there were a few chairs lined up in front of the box where the sacrament is contained (sorry i forgot the name of that too) and this is the only part of the church that is actually well lit, so i guess it's always open to people.


the big problem is that in this room there was a BIG statue of Mary, about 6.5 feet tall or so. i've seen statues before, but i've never seen a statue that [b]had[/b] [b]a pillow in front of it for kneeling and praying.[/b]


it was actually shocking. i can't believe that people kneel directly in front of a statue to pray. i don't know if im blowing this out of proportion or what, but everyone here always tells me that statues and such are just reminders, like pictures on a wall.  but why the pillow for kneeling and praying??


needless to say, this spooked my non-catholic friends, as well as myself. but we hung out in the church anyway, my friend sung amazing grace for us, it was beautiful, and we got the goods all packed up to ship to the Dominican. i just really wish i hadn't seen that statue.


your input please... [/quote]
I thought you had been Catholic before? I'm really surprized that you didn't know we have kneelers just about anywhere. We have them in the pews, in the side apses, in front of the Tabernacle, in front of devotional areas (in my church we have kneelers in front of a devotional area to the Holy Family, the Sacred Heart, and Mary). There are also kneelers in the Confessional. Does that weird you out too? Surely you don't think we are worshipping the priest? During a Nuptial Mass kneelers are put in front of the altar.

I personally have seen people kneeling before people's headstones in a graveyard. But this did not freak me out, for I know the person wasn't worshipping the granite block.

Yes, this is a very common practice. I make use of the kneelers often when I go into church on Saturday for Confession, etc. Afterwards I'll go into the main part of the church and visit the Marian devotional area, I'll light a candle for an intention, and I'll kneel there, ask Mary to pray for or with me for that intention, then I'll get up. I guess I could do the same without a picture or statue being there, but having something to look at actually keeps me more concentrated. I like to stare at the Image of Divine Mercy as well when I'm praying, I love to gaze at Jesus' beautiful face.

[willguy]

[quote]yea, God bless. how can you say that after you say things like the above?

i know you were speaking about lumberjack, but that means that's what you also believe about me.

i give myself credit for sticking around whenever i hear something like this. it's a good thing that there's catholic on this board who are just as willing to try and understand me as i am to them. they are the only reason i stay.
[/quote]

mulls,

Would you sauy that Catholics have a faith based entirly on Christ, or is our faith based on other things as well (in your opinion). I'm gonna guess you'd say the later. So why are you offended when we express that we feel the same about you?

[mulls]

[quote name='willguy' date='Apr 15 2004, 03:22 PM']
mulls,

Would you sauy that Catholics have a faith based entirly on Christ, or is our faith based on other things as well (in your opinion). I'm gonna guess you'd say the later. So why are you offended when we express that we feel the same about you? [/quote]
i would say you're trying your best, doing what you know to be true, but much of which i would disagree with.


especially from being on this board for awhile, i would never say that you aren't trying to follow Christ with your heart.

never.


[quote]I'm gonna guess you'd say the later[/quote]


yea, well we all know what happens when people assume right?


you like telling teaching protestants your side of the story, but have no desire whatsoever to hear the other side. i don't care whether you believe the other side or not, as a catholic you're not supposed to. but have respect for people, and DON'T EVER question my faith in Christ. ever. please.

[marielapin]

Now that I think about it more...

Is it the kneeling

or the pictures and statues

or the kneeling + pictures and statues that bugs you?

How far away from a kneeler should a picture or statue be?

What about kneeling by your beside? Do you ever pray and have your Bible in front of you? What about a cross? How is this different?

Just trying to get some insight.

[mulls]

its the kneeling in front of the statue.

don't give me that 'how far away should the kneeler be' stuff. it's right in front of the statue, meaning you are supposed to kneel in front of the statue directly.

i will never ever understand this.

[God Conquers]

But how is it different from kneeling in front of any other inanimate object? Even the Bible?

[Archangel]

Does anyone kneel at a cemetery when they visit a deceased friend, relative, etc.?

[ironmonk]

[quote name='mulls' date='Apr 15 2004, 04:05 PM']
yea, God bless. how can you say that after you say things like the above?

i know you were speaking about lumberjack, but that means that's what you also believe about me.

i give myself credit for sticking around whenever i hear something like this. it's a good thing that there's catholic on this board who are just as willing to try and understand me as i am to them. they are the only reason i stay. [/quote]
The problem with what you read is that you are seeing one line and ignoring the others that explain it more fully.

Reread it all. Those who think that they are being a true Christian and living the way God wants them to are Christian by desire. They are counted in the body. Even though they have errors.

There can be only one truth. There is only One True Faith. Seeing that no one was a faith unto them selves until the last thirty years or so, we can be sure that bible alone is not the way of Christ. As attested in the bible and the fact that the NT wasn't around as Scripture until around 400 AD, and the fact that people couldn't read and there was no printing press for 1600 or so years.

How can bible alone be what Christ taught when the bible has written in it the importance of the Church?

How can someone follow the way of Christ if they created their own way that is not from the group of disciples that Christ established?

If you go by bible alone, you are not following the way of Christ, if I'm wrong, please show me with the bible where it says "bible alone". Please show me how Christians learned of the bible during the first 1600 years of Christianity.

If you cannot do that, maybe sit back, and really think how can you be following Christ's way if the first Christians had a different faith than you.

Out of Charity we must correct our brethern. If the first Christians went by bible alone, I have not been able to find it anywhere in history.

Now, we ask, what does it mean that people today go by bible alone, and the first Christians did not go by bible alone?

Well, the first Christians had a fresh faith in Christ. It was one faith. It was unified. They all taught One Gospel. Since bible alone was not any part of the Gospel of the first Christians, how then is bible alone the way set forth by Christ.

I'm not trying to beat you over the head with this, but these are questions that if you are on the right path, you should be able to answer for us. Because if you are on the right path, then that means that I'm on the wrong, and I want to be right.

My goal is to come closer to Christ; to know Christ's full truth; to be part of the One Faith established by Christ in 33 AD. From John's Gospel we know that the faith will grow, but it will not change. The Holy Spirit teaches the Church after Christ leaves. So, what church of today can be the same Church of 33 AD.

It will have to have a few things to back it up....[list]
[*]Be the oldest
[*]Trace itself back to 33 AD
[*]Show a harmony with both the old and new testaments
[*]Be built on Peter
[*]Have the power to forgive sins
[/list]

God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited April 15, 2004 by ironmonk

[ironmonk]

What really kills me is that you say that it freaked you out?

You said you were Catholic... you've been here this long... haven't you seen the whole idoltry attack covered in detail.

Here are a few articles...
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Saint_Worship.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Saint_Worship.asp[/url]
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Do_Catholics_Worship_Statues.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Do_Catholi...hip_Statues.asp[/url]
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp[/url]
[url="http://www.catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp"]http://www.catholic.com/library/Intercessi..._the_Saints.asp[/url]
[url="http://www.scripturecatholic.com/saints.html"]http://www.scripturecatholic.com/saints.html[/url]
[url="http://www.scripturecatholic.com/sacramentals.html"]http://www.scripturecatholic.com/sacramentals.html[/url]


And no one has a right to say it's wrong because it does not say it's wrong in the bible. No one is worshiping the statues. Please read the articles.

God Bless,
ironmonk

[mulls]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Apr 15 2004, 04:43 PM']
I'm not trying to beat you over the head with this, but these are questions that if you are on the right path, you should be able to answer for us. Because if you are on the right path, then that means that I'm on the wrong, and I want to be right. [/quote]
there's nothing in my life telling me that i'm NOT on the right path.


i couldn't be leading the life than i am right now without the Holy Spirit.

[mulls]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='Apr 15 2004, 04:20 PM'] But how is it different from kneeling in front of any other inanimate object? Even the Bible? [/quote]
lol, i've never seen anybody put a kneeler in front of a bible with the intention to pray in front of it. or ask for its interecession.


you say that statues help remind you of Christ. that sounds like more than an 'inanimate object' to me. it has a purpose....which is to be prayed in front of (at least for the statue in question).