Hip Hop In Mass

[Pontifex]

Flip,

Anytime you talk about the Mass and making changes or additions there is going to be energy and heat. haha. It is the most sacred and intimate time that we have with Jesus.

I really am opened minded about using different styles of music to worship God in the liturgy, and I do not think that the arguement; "we shouldn't use it because society doesn't except" works at all. Did Jesus only embrace what society accepted? God forbid! In fact it was very much the opposite.

I must say that I do not think that European style worship is the only one that should be embraced. We should explore ways in which to make the mass appealing to all and to bring others into the fold. I am not saying that having a Hip Hop Mass is the answer. However, if I have to sit and listen to electric guitars and drums at Mass then why I can't we have turntables and a nice beat? (It is just a thought.) Reverence and mystery is the Key.

Peace,

Fr. Pontifex

[CatholicCrusader2]

Father,

[quote]However, if I have to sit and listen to electric guitars and drums at Mass then why I can't we have turntables and a nice beat?[/quote]

According to Vatican II, these insturments are not allowed, correct?

[quote]63. In permitting and using musical instruments, the culture and traditions of individual peoples must be taken into account. However, those instruments which are, by common opinion and use, suitable for secular music only, are to be altogether prohibited from every liturgical celebration and from popular devotions.44[/quote] (from VI. Sacred Instrumental Music of Musicam Sacram, March 5, 1967)

Per Mariam.

[dUSt]

[quote name='Traditional' date='Apr 22 2004, 09:17 AM'] According to Vatican II, these insturments are not allowed, correct?

(from VI. Sacred Instrumental Music of Musicam Sacram, March 5, 1967)

Per Mariam. [/quote]
But then again... what about this:

[i]"[b]The use of other instruments may also be admitted in divine worship, given the decision and consent of the competent territorial authority[/b], provided that the instruments are suitable for sacred use, [b]or can be adapted to it[/b], that they are in keeping with the dignity of the temple, and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful." [Constitution on the Liturgy, Art. 120][/i]

Hip-hop is very adaptable. I think that I'd be able to produce music that is more sacred and reverent than what I hear in most masses I attend today. I think people might be mistaking my argument for being against only hip-hop. Not true. I'm against ALL music in the mass that doesn't exude a deep sense of holiness and reverence.

[Pontifex]

Traditional: I am not condoning electic guitars and such at Mass, but when I am invited to Preside at Teen Masses this is what I am forced to deal with.

Dust is correct that the language is pretty permissive of most instruments. When the documents are taken as a whole the major theme is reverence, respect, and the ability to communicate the transcendent.

Peace,

Fr. Pontifex

[flip]

i love my bretheren and my sister-ethren

[Fiat_Voluntas_Tua]

My thoughts...We shouldn't go to Mass in order to be pleased...We go to give something.

Hip-hop is sweet for evangelizing but during Mass there should be reverance...also it is hard to pray when you are dancing and bust out dope rhymes.

Pax et Agape per Maria, Andy

[DemonSlayer]

Yeah, mass isn't about entertainment, it's about reverance for our Lord.

[Demon Seeker]

I feel that Hip Hop could be used in mass or at least mix up the music, why only have one type for example Christian Contemporary music, shoot some people listen to Country or even Rock....

It depends on the music you listen to I understand that their are certain occasions where your supposed to be reverant like communion, but when you worship the Lord by singing you express how you feel theirs a saying that goes something like... "Those who sing good get twice the praise!" So there for whatever style of music motivates you then feel free to express yourself!

[point5]

Flip,
If you asked me to be your confirmation sponsor, then the eanswer is YES!!!!!!

ps it would be dope if Paul and I could do it...but I dont know if that would work.


on a side I got the job with Sports Marketing for Texas Tech Athletics....wooohooo1!!!!!!!

-Kiel
aka Moses theBlack

[MC IMaGiNaZUN]

i love hip hop more than anything, that is true. Hip hop however is not liturgical music, so there would be no point. The phatmass music, to me, not just the style, but the content, i really think would not even be liturgically appropriate. In a catholic perspective, it would be impossible to to reconcile hip hop music use in the sacred mass. Out of reverence and all that. And besides you cannot be using music that the congregation cannot sing to. Face it most people cannot rap, The people are supposed to sing along with the choir who leads, and it would be stupid to have music that people cannot sing along to (simply because most people do not rap or flow.)

Okay from the other side, hip hop music, from a hip hop perspective would not be good for mass. Hip hop music is good for a lot of things, but hip hop music in itself, is just for fun, creativity, art, all these other things. It wouldnt be appropriate for hip hop and its culture to make hip hop music liturgical (or make liturgical hip hop music for that matter). but the evangalization thing is important. Hip hop music has and always will be used to express views and to teach, (think Chuck D and KRS One), so we as catholics could also effectively and justifiably use hip hop music to teach. most of the phatmassers do it, i think most christian hip hop artists do it. Personally i do not think even christian hip hop artists are trying to make hip hop music in their worship services (and to think that a protestant worship service isnt sacred, holy and reverent like ours is).

Just one last thing i was wondering about. Okay, it is good that hip hop music is not used during mass, no liturgical abuses. There are certain songs that are allready made for certain mass parts (alleluia, agnus dei, kyrie, the creed, and even more) and it wouldnt be appropriate to put hip hop here, or even in the other mass parts where the music can variate (like the processional, the reception of the eucharist, you know what i mean), but what i am wondering, is if it would be irreverent to use hip hop during another part of the mass (not as liturgical music, not as worship music, not as a mass part, or chant, or anything) but to use it during the homily for the sake of preaching a message, or teaching a message. That is what i wanna know. Personally yeah i do not want to be affiliated with a liturgical abuse, but i some how see that hip hop (in and only within the homily) might not fit that description).

SHALOM

[dUSt]

I think if a priest used hip-hop in his homily as a teaching tool it's perfectly acceptable. I don't think that would fall under the category of liturgical music, and it wouldn't be replacing any other part of the mass.

But with that said, it would actually have to be the priest doing it, as lay people are not allowed to deliver the homily.

[exploring]

I just had to chime in with my two cents!

I am siding more with flip on this one. In everyone's arguments we seen that hip hop can be used within a mass if the environment and audience is right. Then, to answer flip easily would be that yes we can have hip hop music in mass. One definition of sacred is "dedicated for the worship of deity." Catholic hip hop falls under that definition.

As dUSt pointed out:
"63. In permitting and using musical instruments, the culture and traditions of individual peoples must be taken into account. However, those instruments which are, by common opinion and use, suitable for secular music only, are to be altogether prohibited from every liturgical celebration and from popular devotions.[a. Instruction of the S.C.R., 3 September 1958, n. 70]"

The key here is "suitable for secular music only". I don't know of any instrument that "by common opinion and use" is suitable for "secular music only". Bass beats is no exception as this phatmass music movement is destined for the non-secular world.

dUSt, you mentioned that African drums are used for spiritual means. Don't forget that African drums and dancing is "commonly used" in voodoo rituals as heard on NPR this morning.

Also, the Catholic Mass is about community! Not just you and The Eucharist; but you, everyone else, and The Eucharist. If any style of music brings the community together to celebrate The Eucharist, I say God Bless It!

[dUSt]

[quote name='exploring' date='Apr 23 2004, 08:37 PM'] Also, the Catholic Mass is about community!  Not just you and The Eucharist; but you, everyone else, and The Eucharist.  If any style of music brings the community together to celebrate The Eucharist, I say God Bless It! [/quote]
I would disagree with this. The mass is all about the Eucharist--not community. That's why we should not be holding hands during the Our Father--our prayers should be vertical (up to God) as opposed to horizontal (out to the community). The intimacy that occurs between us and Jesus Christ through the Eucharist should not be replaced with any type of communal intimacy.

Yes, we come together as a commuity for mass, but by saying that the mass is about community, we are blurring the reason why we celebrate this sacrament. Were the people on Calvalry witnessing Christ's death on the cross gathered there to be a community, or were they there to witness His final sacrifice?

[flip]

dust - then why do we offer a sign of peace to our neigbors right before the Eucharist? sounds pretty horizontal to me...

[exploring]

dUSt,

Still have to disagree again and fortunately I have the Catechism to back me up. The definition of the "Celebration of the Eucharist" is found in verses 1322-1355. I don't know what your definition of celebration is, but I know mine and I know the Church's. Celebrations include gatherings of people, people who come together to enjoy each others' company, people who are enjoying the time spent together.

1) The mass is comprised of two parts: the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. See verse 1346 as it mentions "the gathering, the liturgy of the Word, with reading, homily and general intercessions."

2) Verse 1348: "[i]All gather together.[/i] (italics in the Catechism stress importance) Christians come together in one place for the Eucharistic assembly."

3) Verse 1329 contains the definition of Eucharistic assembly: "because the Eucharist is celebrated amid the assembly of the faithful, the visible expression of the Church."

The celebration of mass has been passed down through the generations and it has always been a gathering of the community. The Church stresses over and over the communal importance of mass as shown in the Catechism. You can pray by yourself any time you want, however the mass is a celebration that brings Christ's Church together. In the Gospel today, Jesus commands "I'll make you fishers of men." The celebration of Christ's resurrection is that he came to save all peoples. What better time to open up to the community than at the "celebration of the Eucharist"?

[Oik]

I have to agree with Dust on the "community" issue. If that is what is stressed we do see a blurring. Sadly, this isn't just a threat or supposition, but a reality.

[dUSt]

exploring -
Of course the mass is a gathering of the community. It is definitely communal. What I'm saying is that we should not make that the reason, nor the focus of the mass. We should be totally focused on Jesus Christ.

flip -
Good question. The sign of peace is indeed a sign of community, but also a sign of peace (obviously) and charity. It is definitely not meant to take focus off of the Eucharist, and I think the fact that the sign of peace is actually an [b]optional[/b] part of the mass, illustrates this. The priest doesn't have to say "let us offer one another a sign of peace", as it's not a requirement.

We should acknowledge that we are a community, one body, sure--but my whole point was that it's not a central part of the mass, and shouldn't be used as a description for the focus of the mass.

[exploring]

I agree. The focus of mass is the liturgy of the Word and the liturgy of the Eucharist. However, community is an inherent part of the mass. We [i]all gather together[/i] to worship our Lord at mass.

dUSt, another point I'd like to cover is: I don't see how music or praying the Our Father while holding hands takes away from the Eucharist. It is simply and quite a good sign of the Body of Christ joining together in worship. At times, when I'm in a Church that doesn't hold hands during the Our Father I feel cheated like when I'm at a Church that doesn't offer the Blood of Christ at communion. However, I will agree that some of these "contemporary" services drive me nuts. Doesn't anyone sing "On Eagle's Wings" anymore?

[dUSt]

[quote]dUSt, another point I'd like to cover is: I don't see how music or praying the Our Father while holding hands takes away from the Eucharist. [/quote]
Holding hands during the Our Father gives a false impression of why we're saying that prayer at that specific time in the liturgy. At that moment in mass, we should be totally focusing on the Eucharist--totally focused on God--with total and complete intimacy. The [b]communion[/b] that is happening is the communion between yourself and Christ's Body--not the communion between you and your neighbor. By holding hands, we are creating a sense of intimacy among the congregation--replacing the communion between us and God with a communion between us and our neighbors.

[quote]It is simply and quite a good sign of the Body of Christ joining together in worship. [/quote]
If this were the case, I wonder why the G.I.R.M. and the US Conference of Catholic Bishops tells us that it is not the recommended posture.

[quote]At times, when I'm in a Church that doesn't hold hands during the Our Father I feel cheated like when I'm at a Church that doesn't offer the Blood of Christ at communion.[/quote]
Please don't feel cheated, as both His Body and His Blood is truly present in both the form of bread AND the form of wine.

[exploring]

What the heck is GIRM?

I think a lot of good comes from holding hands and I feel filled with Christ's love through the members of the community. Is there a link you can send me that explains their positions?

Hey, what can I say, I like receiving both The Body and Blood!