Should Openly Gay People Be Allowed To Serve In The Military?

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='03 August 2010 - 10:00 PM' timestamp='1280890816' post='2151843']
Of course there would be a problem. But on the flip side, there is a problem with those heterosexual men who flaunt their sexual escapades and use degrading language when talking about women. I am sure that plenty of heterosexual men do not appreciate such talk.
[/quote]

True, such talk by heterosexuals would be problematic. That said, I think it would be pretty difficult to crack down on that since (in my impressions, at least) such things are almost ubiquitous in the military.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='03 August 2010 - 10:14 PM' timestamp='1280891673' post='2151851']
this is a good question. and for every person here on PM who hates it when "people let their homosexuality define them as a person"(probably one of the more common quotes on PM) but is ok with this law defining people by their sexual orientation, should probably mull it over a little bit.
[/quote]

The law would only define a homosexual man by his orientation inasmuch as the man defined himself by it. A person suffering from homosexual inclinations who does not practice homosexual acts and who does not self-identify as a homosexual would not be excluded from the military. Only those flamboyant about their homosexuality would be excluded.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='03 August 2010 - 08:20 PM' timestamp='1280892037' post='2151855']
The law would only define a homosexual man by his orientation inasmuch as the man defined himself by it. A person suffering from homosexual inclinations who does not practice homosexual acts and who does not self-identify as a homosexual would not be excluded from the military. Only those flamboyant about their homosexuality would be excluded.
[/quote]

no, if someone who didnt like you found out that you were attracted to guys they could get you kicked out.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='03 August 2010 - 10:22 PM' timestamp='1280892159' post='2151856']
no, if someone who didnt like you found out that you were attracted to guys they could get you kicked out.
[/quote]

How would someone find out a man was attracted to guys if he had never shared that information with anyone?

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='03 August 2010 - 08:23 PM' timestamp='1280892215' post='2151857']
How would someone find out a man was attracted to guys if he had never shared that information with anyone?
[/quote]

some people are like detectives.

think back to having a crush on someone in high school. chances are, someone close to you figured it out without you telling them, and bugged you about it.

and if he did share that with someone, not as a "identification thing" but as a "hey dude, im feeling pretty bad about wanting a drink/missing my girlfriend/weird feelings for guys i dont like/etc" how would that be?

some people on this site have shared that they have unwanted SSA, would the same thing be unallowed between friends in the military?

edit: my bad rexi, you should have to "think back" to highschool. but you probably know what im talking about.

Edited August 4, 2010 by Jesus_lol

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='03 August 2010 - 10:28 PM' timestamp='1280892534' post='2151859']
some people are like detectives.

think back to having a crush on someone in highschool. chances are, someone close to you figured it out without you telling them, and bugged you about it.

and if he did share that with someone, not as a "identification thing" but as a "hey dude, im feeling pretty bad about wanting a drink/missing my girlfriend/weird feelings for guys i dont like/etc" how would that be?

some people on this site have shared that they have unwanted SSA, would the same thing be unallowed between friends in the military?
[/quote]

I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with someone sharing that sort of information, but it probably wouldn't be a prudent career choice to do so. In a like manner, it wouldn't be a prudent choice for a student to let his friend know that he plagiarized on a paper. If, in either situation, the guy wants to tell his friend that, he can go right ahead, but he should know that it could be seriously damaging to his career if those in authority find out.

[loveletslive]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='03 August 2010 - 10:50 PM' timestamp='1280890230' post='2151838']
I have a question. Concerning homosexuality, we emphasize the difference between homosexual inclinations (i.e. same-sex attraction) and homosexual sexual acts. In essence, we do not define the homosexual person as an individual ruled by his or her disordered sexual passions. That being a homosexual does not define them as a person. So why does it matter what type of sexual inclination they have, so long as they do their duty as soldiers? Obviously I am not saying that a person should parade around the barracks proclaiming their homosexuality, or heterosexuality for that matter. I just fail to see the relevance of an individual's sexuality in the military - unless, of course, the individual has a severe and dangerous fetish and or is prone to harassment.
[/quote]

+1

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='03 August 2010 - 11:12 PM' timestamp='1280891551' post='2151850']
Then all sin must be eradicated if one is to serve in a moral military.
[/quote]

All sins are not as grave. There a certain grave sins and dishonors that disqualify one from serving in a moral army. Murder, Rape, Sodomy, Treason and other acts unbecoming of an officer.

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='03 August 2010 - 08:45 PM' timestamp='1280893501' post='2151870']
All sins are not as grave. There a certain grave sins and dishonors that disqualify one from serving in a moral army. Murder, Rape, Sodomy, Treason and other acts unbecoming of an officer.
[/quote]

not every soldier gets to be an officer

[Jesus_lol]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='03 August 2010 - 08:35 PM' timestamp='1280892946' post='2151863']
I wouldn't necessarily have a problem with someone sharing that sort of information, but it probably wouldn't be a prudent career choice to do so. In a like manner, it wouldn't be a prudent choice for a student to let his friend know that he plagiarized on a paper. If, in either situation, the guy wants to tell his friend that, he can go right ahead, but he should know that it could be seriously damaging to his career if those in authority find out.
[/quote]

you didnt really address my response on how people find out about people with SSA.

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='03 August 2010 - 10:45 PM' timestamp='1280893501' post='2151870']
All sins are not as grave. There a certain grave sins and dishonors that disqualify one from serving in a moral army. Murder, Rape, Sodomy, Treason and other acts unbecoming of an officer.
[/quote]

There is definitely truth in this. Fornication, though always considered a mortal sin, has often been seen as a pretty slight sin in comparison to others. For example, Dante puts fornicators in the second circle of hell (as far as one can get from the center of hell without being in limbo), while sodomites are lumped with blasphemers in the seventh circle. St. Thomas Aquinas names simple fornication as the "least grave among the species of lust" ([i]Summa Theologiæ[/i], II-II, Q. 154, Art. 12). On the other hand, he ranks sodomy as the second worst sexual sin, coming right after bestiality, "because use of the right sex is not observed" (Ibid.). Furthermore, under Medieval law, while fornication was usually tolerated, sodomy was often punishable. Basically, I think there is definitely precedent for tolerating heterosexual moral laxity (whether among soldiers or among the general populace) while forbidding homosexual acts and punishing those who commit them.

Edited August 4, 2010 by Resurrexi

[God the Father]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='04 August 2010 - 01:01 AM' timestamp='1280894508' post='2151880']
There is definitely truth in this. Fornication, though always considered a mortal sin, has often been seen as a pretty slight sin in comparison to others. For example, Dante puts fornicators in the second circle of hell (as far as one can get from the center of hell without being in limbo), while sodomites are lumped with blasphemers in the seventh circle. St. Thomas Aquinas names simple fornication as the "least grave among the species of lust" ([i]Summa Theologiæ[/i], II-II, Q. 154, Art. 12). On the other hand, he ranks sodomy as the second worst sexual sin, coming right after bestiality, "because use of the right sex is not observed" (Ibid.). Furthermore, under Medieval law, while fornication usually tolerated, sodomy was often punishable. Basically, I think there is definitely precedent for tolerating heterosexual moral laxity (whether among soldiers or among the general populace) while forbidding homosexual acts.
[/quote]

hahaha well that's quite a weight off my shoulders let me tell ya

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='03 August 2010 - 09:17 PM' timestamp='1280888231' post='2151815']

I think it would be good for the US military to expel all immoral people. all the gays, drunks, guys who talk about the girl back home they sleep with, liars, blasphemers, adulterers, guys/girls that lust, everyone.

then the canadian army could walk through, kill the 3 soldiers who managed to beat the morality lie detector test, and then we get to have hawaii and alaska!
[/quote]

Nice.

~Sternhauser

[HisChildForever]

[quote name='God the Father' date='04 August 2010 - 12:04 AM' timestamp='1280894665' post='2151881']
hahaha well that's quite a weight off my shoulders let me tell ya
[/quote]

Um what.

[MIKolbe]

umm..

he said

[quote][size="7"]hahaha well that's quite a weight off my shoulders let me tell ya[/size][/quote]

[Resurrexi]

[quote name='Jesus_lol' date='03 August 2010 - 10:53 PM' timestamp='1280894021' post='2151875']
you didnt really address my response on how people find out about people with SSA.
[/quote]

I don't think that you were necessarily correct in the way you described people's finding out that their friend is gay. While it is true that there are some people I know whom others often suspect of having homosexual inclinations, that suspicion is irrelevant unless there is some substantial proof that the person in question truly is homosexual (e.g. it is know that the person has committed homosexual acts).

[ardillacid]

[quote name='God the Father' date='04 August 2010 - 12:04 AM' timestamp='1280894665' post='2151881']
hahaha well that's quite a weight off my shoulders let me tell ya
[/quote]
I bet you get all the babes

[organwerke]

[quote name='Resurrexi' date='04 August 2010 - 06:01 AM' timestamp='1280894508' post='2151880']
Basically, I think there is definitely precedent for tolerating heterosexual moral laxity (whether among soldiers or among the general populace) while forbidding homosexual acts and punishing those who commit them.
[/quote]

Agree

[organwerke]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' date='04 August 2010 - 04:28 AM' timestamp='1280888881' post='2151821']
Some sins are graver and more vile than others. Sodomy is one of the few that cry out to God for vengeance[/quote]

If I look for sins that cry out to God for vengeance in the Pius X's catechism it is not specifically mentioned Sodomy but "impure sin against nature".

Now, Somody surely is one of them, but is it the only one?
What about, for example, (hetero)sexual acts using condoms? Since it is against nature to prevent that fecondation can take place, is this an impure act against nature too?

[kamiller42]

[quote name='HisChildForever' date='03 August 2010 - 11:00 PM' timestamp='1280890816' post='2151843']
Of course there would be a problem. But on the flip side, there is a problem with those heterosexual men who flaunt their sexual escapades and use degrading language when talking about women. I am sure that plenty of heterosexual men do not appreciate such talk.
[/quote]
Sexual harassment in word or action is not tolerated in the military. If the heterosexual behaves that way, minor to severe action is taken. Sexual harassment is covered by a few articles of the UCMJ. They had us sit through sexual harassment sensitivity training almost annually.

I know some think discrimination is a dirty, but there is justified discrimination. To keep on topic, Winchester mentioned midgets. Did you know there are height requirements to get into the military? "But what's height got to do with shooting a gun?!" Oih.

In regards to regulating morality, the military does and for good reason. Adultery is prohibited by the UCMJ, Article 134. You can be court martialed for it.

The military is not a petri dish for social experiments. Homosexual behavior does not belong in the military.