Charismatic Catholics

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Inquisitor Generalis' date='Feb 15 2006, 02:44 AM']Absolutely.  Remember, the question is, "How would most Catholics have reacted to the charismatic movement before Vatican II?"
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You really can't ask they particular question because you can't rearrange history. You can only guess, and color it by your preconceived notions.

My mom, was born in 1913, and a steel-spined irish-catholic school teacher, was thrilled with the new mass, and the feeling God was actually back in church. She was definitely not a holy-roller pentecostal.
My cousin, born in 1915 and a latin teacher, felt the same way.
Vatican II started a tremendous outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the Church. Did many aspects get carried too far, by well-meaning and over-enthusiastic people? of course. Does that condemn it? Absolutely not.
It takes 40-50 years for the results of a council to fiddler out.
That is occurring now.

[Norseman82]

[quote name='Inquisitor Generalis' date='Feb 14 2006, 02:47 PM']This is not happening through the charismatic movement.  The charismatics came from the Pentecostal heresy.
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1) Have you ever considered that the charismatic movement might be the vehicle to bring the "heretical" Pentecostals back home to the fullness of truth in Rome?

2) What is your educational background? Are you clergy? Student? If so, where?

[jezic]

as a note, i don't think we should start saying what JPII will answer for. Let God be the judge.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Norseman82' date='Feb 16 2006, 01:44 PM']1)  Have you ever considered that the charismatic movement might be the vehicle to bring the "heretical" Pentecostals back home to the fullness of truth in Rome?
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Very true.

"Baptizing" non-Catholic traditions and ideas is nothing new. If the Charismatic movement is anathema because it was born in Protestant communities, how much more so is scholasticism anathema because it was born in Pagan philosophy?

At least Protestantism is Christian.

[Inquisitor Generalis]

[quote name='Norseman82' date='Feb 16 2006, 11:44 AM']1)  Have you ever considered that the charismatic movement might be the vehicle to bring the "heretical" Pentecostals back home to the fullness of truth in Rome?

2)  What is your educational background?  Are you clergy?  Student?  If so, where?
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1. I have considered #1; however, I don't think it's the right approach to reaching Pentecostals.

2. I have a master's degree from a Big 10 business school.

[Inquisitor Generalis]

[quote name='jezic' date='Feb 16 2006, 11:47 AM']as a note, i don't think we should start saying what JPII will answer for. Let God be the judge.
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Allowing God to be the judge is what is implied when I said JPII will have a lot to answer for.

[scardella]

It's scardella, please spell it correctly.

BTW, is all this [i]sensus catholicus[/i] stuff the same as [i]sensus fidei[/i]?

Also I think the education question was getting more at your theological background.

[Inquisitor Generalis]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Feb 16 2006, 10:19 AM']Vatican II started a tremendous outpouring of the Holy Spirit on the Church.
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I think it was Pope Paul VI, of unpleasant memory, who said that the smoke of Satan had entered the Church...

[Era Might]

[quote name='Inquisitor Generalis' date='Feb 16 2006, 02:38 PM']I think it was Pope Paul VI, of unpleasant memory, who said that the smoke of Satan had entered the Church...
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Perhaps he came disguised as the schismatic Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, "of really unpleasant memory"?

[Inquisitor Generalis]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Feb 16 2006, 12:44 PM']Perhaps he came disguised as the schismatic Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre, "of really unpleasant memory"?
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The saintly Abp. Marcel Lefebvre, of blessed memory, had nothing to do w/Paul VI's "smoke of Satan" comment and you know it.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Inquisitor Generalis' date='Feb 16 2006, 03:00 PM']The saintly Abp. Marcel Lefebvre, of blessed memory, had nothing to do w/Paul VI's "smoke of Satan" comment and you know it.
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And your "of unpleasent memory" addendum had nothing to do with anything in this thread and you know it.

Pope Paul VI had one thing over Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre. He wasn't an excommunicated schismatic.

[Inquisitor Generalis]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Feb 16 2006, 01:04 PM']Pope Paul VI had one thing over Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre. He wasn't an excommunicated schismatic.
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Pope Paul VI will still have to answer for his disastrous Papacy. Dante put a number of popes and bishops in his [i]Inferno[/i]. I shudder to think where he would have put Paul VI and JPII if he were writing that poem today.

Edited February 16, 2006 by Inquisitor Generalis

[Era Might]

[quote name='Inquisitor Generalis' date='Feb 16 2006, 03:14 PM']Pope Paul VI will still have to answer for his disastrous Papacy.  Dante put a number of popes and bishops in his [i]Inferno[/i].  I shudder to think where he would have put Paul VI and JPII if he were writing that poem today.
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I shudder even worse to think where he would put Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre today, who will have to answer for his disastrous excommunication and his disastrous schism.

[Inquisitor Generalis]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Feb 16 2006, 01:16 PM']I shudder even worse to think where he would put Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre today, who will have to answer for his disastrous excommunication and his disastrous schism.
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Frankly, I'm betting The Archbishop would fare far better than either of the aforementioned Popes.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Inquisitor Generalis' date='Feb 16 2006, 03:18 PM']Frankly, I'm betting The Archbishop would fare far better than either of the aforementioned Popes.
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The aforementioned Popes were not excommunicated or schismatic.

Just in case anyone is unawares, Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre was an excommunicated schismatic.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Feb 16 2006, 09:52 AM'][url="http://www.in-unity.org/articles/bishconfr.htm"]http://www.in-unity.org/articles/bishconfr.htm[/url]

is this what you are looking for?
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No that is not quite what I was looking for. I will have to call my spiritual director and ask for the exact publishing information. I went to him asking for guidance because I had a friend that was thinking about joining a charismatic movement and I wanted some information on it from the magesterium.

[quote]Pope Paul VI will still have to answer for his disastrous Papacy. Dante put a number of popes and bishops in his Inferno. I shudder to think where he would have put Paul VI and JPII if he were writing that poem today.[/quote]That was entirely uncalled for and uncharitable. When you start judging the soul of another, especially the pope whose election was protected by the Holy Spirit you tread on dangerous ground. I believe that all sides would benefit from a stand down on this specific point about placing certain people in Hell.

[Inquisitor Generalis]

[quote name='Era Might' date='Feb 16 2006, 01:23 PM']
Just in case anyone is unawares, Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre was an excommunicated schismatic.
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I think we're all aware by now that you like the sound of those words.

[Inquisitor Generalis]

[quote name='Paphnutius' date='Feb 16 2006, 01:24 PM']
That was entirely uncalled for and uncharitable.  When you start judging the soul of another, especially the pope whose election was protected by the Holy Spirit you tread on dangerous ground. I believe that all sides would benefit from a stand down on this specific point about placing certain people in Hell. 
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Dante did exactly what you're telling us all not to do, and his work was praised by multiple popes. He's had encyclicals written about him, even. Dante was a great [i]Catholic[/i] poet. Sadly, however, his work has been neglected by post-VII Catholics. I guess they don't like discussing the Four Last Things anymore.

[Era Might]

[quote name='Inquisitor Generalis' date='Feb 16 2006, 03:34 PM']I think we're all aware by now that you like the sound of those words.
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Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul II were not included in "The Inferno".

But Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre was included in an Apostolic Letter declaring that he had incurred an excommunication and committed a schismatic act:

[quote]In itself, this act was one of disobedience to the Roman Pontiff in a very grave matter and of supreme importance for the unity of the church, such as is the ordination of bishops whereby the apostolic succession is sacramentally perpetuated. Hence such disobedience - which implies in practice the rejection of the Roman primacy - constitutes a schismatic act. In performing such an act, notwithstanding the formal canonical warning sent to them by the Cardinal Prefect of the Congregation for Bishops on 17 June last, [b]Mons. Lefebvre[/b] and the priests Bernard Fellay, Bernard Tissier de Mallerais, Richard Williamson and Alfonso de Galarreta, have incurred the grave penalty of excommunication envisaged by ecclesiastical law.

--Pope John Paul II, Apostolic Letter "Ecclesia Dei"[/quote]

Once again, for the record, Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre was an excommunicated schismatic.

[Paphnutius]

[quote name='Inquisitor Generalis' date='Feb 16 2006, 01:37 PM']Dante did exactly what you're telling us all not to do, and his work was praised by multiple popes.  He's had encyclicals written about him, even.  Dante was a great [i]Catholic[/i] poet.  Sadly, however, his work has been neglected by post-VII Catholics.  I guess they don't like discussing the Four Last Things anymore.
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1. You are not Dante, nor an epic poet.

2. Dante was writing a piece of fiction, not arguing in a debate table making a point about a papacy. You on the other hand are directly comparing in no jovial terms two supreme pontiffs with a schismatic.

There is a difference.