Modesty Vs. Morality

[cmotherofpirl]

yep.
Its always our fault the God hotwired their visual systems to the wrong body parts.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Lil Red Devil' date='Apr 21 2004, 01:31 PM'] you know what makes me mad about reading this thread? that there is a general feeling in arguments about how it is "the woman's fault." "the woman's responsibility." Do we really want to go back to the time where the woman was the sinner, the lustful one, the tempter, etc and the man was blameless? Where the woman has all the responsibility and the man has none? Give me a break.

CreepyCrawler, "I would like to add that a 'hot chest' and 'tight abs' are becoming more sexualized in men and so I'd please ask you men out there to take your own advice and cover up (no shirts off in the summer!) -- better safe than sorry and causing someone else to sin!! "

I totally agree. Come on, let's make this equal.

And btw, it gets pretty hot here in the summer too, and I'll wear sleeveless tops and shorts. [/quote]
This has already been addressed several times in this thread. I said very clearly at least twice that I agree. It goes both ways.

Cmom, are you suggesting God made a mistake in the ordering of His creation?
Seriously though, you must admit that there is a fundamental difference in how men and women are wired in this regard.

[Lil Red]

popestpiusx, that wasn't just addressed to you. i did see your last post that you agree with CreepyCrawler's statement. but overall, in this thread, that is the feeling i get when i read this thread.

[Carrie]

I've read through this thread and agree 100% with Lil Red

[Sojourner]

Yes, I agree with Lil Red too, which was the point of my post a few pages back.

We each must take responsibility for the clothing we wear and the effects this clothing has on others.

However, we must also take responsibility for the direction of our thoughts. We are to take every thought captive and subject it to Christ ... when lust creeps into our minds, whether triggered by an ankle or a Speedo, it becomes our responsibility to deal with it in a manner that glorifies God ... MEN and WOMEN.

Personally, I think immodest dress poses a twofold problem, first in that it potentially incites a sinful response (lust -- the objectification of the body) and second in that it reveals a person's own lack of regard for the holiness of his/her body.

In both cases, there is a faulty perception of truth as revealed through our bodies. It seems to me that simply prescribing that skirts be a certain length, or follow a certain cut, or that shirts not vee too deeply, or be too tight, misses the point of the whole thing -- that it is our hearts that need to change, both in the person dressing immodestly and in the person lusting, whoever that may be.

[PedroX]

Lil Red, and Carrie, I agree completely that it goes both ways. However, I am much more familiar with "good Christian women" flaunting modesty than I am with men doing so. We have all become infected by our culture. It is no person's right to wear a bikini. It is no person's right to go jogging in small shorts and a sports bra. We have an obligation to dress modestly, not a right to be scandalous. I don't think most Christian woman are immodest because they are "temptresses" etc, but rather because they are vain. Just as the men who obsessively work out are.

PSPX and Jake, keep up the good fight.


peace...

[Lil Red]

PedroX, I'm not saying that it is any person's "right" to wear anything (as one of my friends put it, "Spandex is a privilege, not a right.")

I'm just saying that when you read this thread from the start, there is this attitude of women need to cover everything up because they are the ones that inspire sin. And not much about men inspiring sin also.

Does our society portray too much skin in everything? In fashion, movies, music, etc? Yes, it does. Does this mean we women need to walk around in ankle length skirts and long sleeve blouses all the time? No.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Sojourner' date='Apr 21 2004, 03:11 PM']

In both cases, there is a faulty perception of truth as revealed through our bodies. It seems to me that simply prescribing that skirts be a certain length, or follow a certain cut, or that shirts not vee too deeply, or be too tight, misses the point of the whole thing -- that it is our hearts that need to change, both in the person dressing immodestly and in the person lusting, whoever that may be. [/quote]
Thank You and God Bless you Pedro!!

Now on to the above quote:
It is interesting that people on here have attacked (or disagreed or whatever you want to call it) what I have said from two standpoints.
First, from the standpoint that you did in this quote, namely, that modesty is about something much more than just sets of rules on how short skirts can be etc. etc. To that I say I agree 100%. For evidence of my agreement gp back to the first page of this thread and read my post. I went at the question from the standpoint of the spiritual, not the legal. That however was not good enough for some.

And so we have the sencond line of attack, that of the minimalist. They ask "Where does the Church condemn such and such an article of clothing?" To which I respond, first you are missing the point (see the above), and second, the Church has established standards. However, those standards are rejected because they are either 1)too legalistic (to which I again respond you are missing the point and see the above explanation) or 2) that modesty is about something much more than just sets of rules on how short skirts can be etc. etc, to which I respond (as I said above) I agree 100%.

Now wasn't that a nice circle we just traveled?

[God Conquers]

We are equally responsible for modesty and the sin of lust.

Men's hearts and attitudes need to be redeemed.
Women have to realize that it's gonna take a little extra care in the clothing they choose to enable us to do this faithfully.

Although this is somewhat cliche, it is true with certain exceptions:

Men are visual beings, we respond to visual stimuli, especially sexual signals and physical a ttributes, in a different way thatn women biologically.

We have a hard time. I'm not saying that women don't! But I think we have it particularly bad.

So, although we need to keep our shirts on, to quote Seinfeld,

Men's bodies are like Jeeps, they're useful, don't get good mileage, not much to look at.

Women are like sports cars, built and designed to look beautiful and pleasing (which you are).

So to end off... we have equal share in modesty and we need to act on the virtue of chastity in an open and more diligent way in order both to serve our own spiritual needs and to be a witness to society.

[pinstripes]

if a guy has a 6pack and pecks he can't take his shirt off? what?

[Azriel]

[quote]My point was, though, that the CCC does not say modesty is culturally based. It said modesty varies from culture to culture. There is a difference.[/quote]

popestpius - can you explain the difference please? Because if modesty varies from culture to culture, how can that not mean that it is culturally based?

Maybe we are arguing semantics. If there is a universal standard for modesty, how can it vary from culture to culture?

I'm asking a very serious question, and not trying to play stupid.

(this is why I don't play here anymore)

And, for the record - back a few posts ago I did say that I agree our culture needs to get on the ball in regards to modesty and respect.

(But, I still think the statement regarding bikini wearing being a mortal sin is ridiculous.)

[Carrie]

[quote name='PedroX' date='Apr 21 2004, 04:14 PM'] Lil Red, and Carrie, I agree completely that it goes both ways. However, I am much more familiar with "good Christian women" flaunting modesty than I am with men doing so. We have all become infected by our culture. It is no person's right to wear a bikini. It is no person's right to go jogging in small shorts and a sports bra. We have an obligation to dress modestly, not a right to be scandalous. I don't think most Christian woman are immodest because they are "temptresses" etc, but rather because they are vain. Just as the men who obsessively work out are.

PSPX and Jake, keep up the good fight.


peace... [/quote]
Pedro, I'm not saying it's anyone's "right" to wear certain things. What I am saying is that this thread does have the attitude of it being the women's fault only. I agree women should dress modestly, but that doesn't mean I need to be covered from neck to ankle to wrist. How about the men whose attitudes need to be changed? Even some of the Christian men on this phorum have made comments that aren't exactly Christian concerning women's dress. Maybe while women are addressing how they clothe themselves, some of the men who need to change their views of women should look at themselves as well.

I dress modestly but when I go to the gym, I work up a sweat just like anyone else, so I wear shorts and a tank top. It's ridiculous that men can work out with no shirt (because they're sweating or whatever) but I have to go in long sweat pants? I don't look at these men with lust because they have no shirt on. Why must some of these men look at us with such lust. Attitudes need to change Literally covering up the problem (or the woman in this case) is not going to fix the underlying issues.

God Bless,
Carrie

[cmotherofpirl]

If a man wants to commit the sin of lust in his heart , he will.

It doesn't matter if we wear burkas or bikinis. Men need to take responsibility for themselves. Yes some clothes does cause a physical reaction in men, that itself is not the sin. The sin is dwelling on it in your heart. Women can react physically as well. Dwelling on that would be a sin too.

[God Conquers]

true, true, true. Consent is what constitutes sin.

[pinstripes]

[quote name='Carrie' date='Apr 22 2004, 08:12 AM'] I dress modestly but when I go to the gym, I work up a sweat just like anyone else, so I wear shorts and a tank top. It's ridiculous that men can work out with no shirt (because they're sweating or whatever) but I have to go in long sweat pants? I don't look at these men with lust because they have no shirt on. Why must some of these men look at us with such lust. Attitudes need to change Literally covering up the problem (or the woman in this case) is not going to fix the underlying issues. [/quote]
i'm sorry, but men are more suseptable to sin through their eyes. that's why so many men have issues with pornogophy. it's harder for a women to be turned on by a guy simply on apearence than it is for guys to be turned on by how a girl looks. men can see someone and invision them as something they want to have for themselves (i.e. lust) with little effort. practically speaking, i would wear whatever i'd do best working out in because your purpose is to excersize or whatever, and not lust. it's the guy's responsability to control themselves.

[Sojourner]

[quote][b]Carrie:[/b] Literally covering up the problem (or the woman in this case) is not going to fix the underlying issues. [/quote]

Exactly -- and this is the attitude that I think all of us women who have been responding here are seeing, that men seem to think that women being covered head to toe will eradicate lust.

[quote][b]God Conquers: [/b]... we have equal share in modesty and we need to act on the virtue of chastity in an open and more diligent way in order both to serve our own spiritual needs and to be a witness to society. [/quote]

Exactly. This is a balanced approach to modesty. We dress modestly out of respect for our bodies and respect for our brothers and sisters in Christ, and we each work on making our own lustful thoughts and desires subject to Christ.

[quote][b]PedroX:[/b] It is no person's right to go jogging in small shorts and a sports bra. We have an obligation to dress modestly, not a right to be scandalous. I don't think most Christian woman are immodest because they are "temptresses" etc, but rather because they are vain.[/quote]

I don't know that I would pin this on vanity, per se. A woman running may not choose to wear small shorts and a sports bra not out of vanity, but out of a desire to be comfortable. I wear a tank top when I'm cleaning my apartment, or hiking, or exercising, and it's most definitely not out of vanity.

Personally, I can think of only a couple of Christian women I know who I would say on a regular basis dress immodestly out of vanity. Perhaps I'm not as up on what would constitute immodesty because I'm a woman, and don't have special insight into guys' thoughts, I don't know.

[Carrie]

[quote name='pinstripes' date='Apr 22 2004, 12:00 PM'] i'm sorry, but men are more suseptable to sin through their eyes. that's why so many men have issues with pornogophy. it's harder for a women to be turned on by a guy simply on apearence than it is for guys to be turned on by how a girl looks. men can see someone and invision them as something they want to have for themselves (i.e. lust) with little effort. practically speaking, i would wear whatever i'd do best working out in because your purpose is to excersize or whatever, and not lust. it's the guy's responsability to control themselves. [/quote]
So basically, unless exercising, I should tailor how I dress because men cannot control themselves?

Have to love the double standard here.

And cmom, your post is right on!

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='pinstripes' date='Apr 22 2004, 12:00 PM'] i'm sorry, but men are more suseptable to sin through their eyes. that's why so many men have issues with pornogophy. it's harder for a women to be turned on by a guy simply on apearence than it is for guys to be turned on by how a girl looks. men can see someone and invision them as something they want to have for themselves (i.e. lust) with little effort. practically speaking, i would wear whatever i'd do best working out in because your purpose is to excersize or whatever, and not lust. it's the guy's responsability to control themselves. [/quote]
When you become a woman, then you get the right to determine what turns women on. Please do not underestimate what you don't know.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Apr 22 2004, 10:54 AM'] When you become a woman, then you get the right to determine what turns women on. Please do not underestimate what you don't know. [/quote]
cmom, you just take the words right outta my mouth!

[Azriel]

[quote name='Lil Red Devil' date='Apr 22 2004, 10:58 AM'] cmom, you just take the words right outta my mouth! [/quote]
That's why she's the mom!