Strictest Carmelite Convents In The U.s.?

[carmelite15]

I know someone said brooklyn carmel, but is there any others???

[OnlySunshine]

When I think of strict, I think of the Carmelites who do not show their faces in photos and maintain a very thick grill. These are the ones I know of:

[url="http://www.carmelitenunsstjoseph.org/Buffalo.htm"]Buffalo Carmel[/url]
[url="http://tradvocations.blogspot.com/2008/06/discalced-carmelites.html"]Valparaiso Carmel[/url]
[url="http://tradvocations.blogspot.com/2009/09/carmelites-to-start-foundation-in.html"]Elysburg Carmel[/url] (the one In The Arms of the Lord is preparing to enter)
[url="http://www.carmelitemonastery.com/"]Georgetown Carmel[/url]
[url="http://db.religiouslife.com/reg_life/irl.nsf/org/166"]Alexandria Carmel[/url]


Here's a very old thread with lots of information about 1990 Carmels and strict enclosure:

http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?showtopic=58540&st=0

[littlellama17]

I recently visited Morristown Carmel in Morristown, NJ (northern NJ) and from what Mother Prioress told me, they're pretty strict. Those who enter come with nothing (that's ok), no prescription medicine of any kind, straw mattresses, midnight office making only about 5 hours of sleep, no socks (true discalced carmies!), burlap habit, no phone calls, etc. They had a double grille in the speakroom..it made me dizzy!!!! LOL. Philly and Flemington do not have double grilles. Also, when I visited, the nuns no longer use the turn so they have more time for prayer. They have lay people who take care of accepting donations, etc. No extern sisters as of yet...they could use one!
They also have the Divine Office in Latin which is very beautiful!!!!!

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='littlellama17' timestamp='1290810256' post='2189420']
I recently visited Morristown Carmel in Morristown, NJ (northern NJ) and from what Mother Prioress told me, they're pretty strict. Those who enter come with nothing (that's ok), no prescription medicine of any kind, straw mattresses, midnight office making only about 5 hours of sleep, no socks (true discalced carmies!), burlap habit, no phone calls, etc. They had a double grille in the speakroom..it made me dizzy!!!! LOL. Philly and Flemington do not have double grilles. Also, when I visited, the nuns no longer use the turn so they have more time for prayer. They have lay people who take care of accepting donations, etc. No extern sisters as of yet...they could use one!
They also have the Divine Office in Latin which is very beautiful!!!!!
[/quote]

When I contacted the Buffalo Carmel, I was told they had 2 extern Sisters that took care of all the outside work and donations so the cloistered Sisters had more time for prayer and weren't constantly interrupted. I think extern Sisters or lay members are very important to the life of a cloister because the silence can be broken by bells at the turn being rung at any time if the Sisters don't have help.

Edited November 27, 2010 by MaterMisericordiae

[reminiscere]

I believe Buffalo, Alexandria and Brooklyn; Valparaiso and Elysburg.

I'm not sure how Rochester is now that it's merged with Schenectady. Schenectady was Buffalo's first foundation and was the Spanish style of Carmel, being founded by the Mexican Mothers. Rochester on the other hand was part of the Port Tobacco family if I'm not mistaken... but then again Brooklyn originally was too but in 1997 when there were a few news articles before they closed, Constance Fitzgerald called them the strictest in the world if I recall correctly, but who knows?

[holly.o]

Random question that's somewhat off-topic (sorry, brandee!)... I heard someone once say there are Spanish- & French-descended Carmels and that they have different styles. Does anyone know which are which in the US?

I only know that Buffalo is definitely a foundation from Mexico, and I'm wondering if the other above Carmels noted for their strictness are either French or Spanish in origin. Not that that proves or disproves anything (France has some pretty strict non-Carmels!), but I'm just curious...

Another random question... but since we're speaking Carmels, shouldn't vee8 be back by now? Hmmmmm....

[reminiscere]

All the Carmels I mentioned are Spanish, descended from Mexico. Morristown might be French...

[quote name='holly.o' timestamp='1290823991' post='2189458']
Random question that's somewhat off-topic (sorry, brandee!)... I heard someone once say there are Spanish- & French-descended Carmels and that they have different styles. Does anyone know which are which in the US?

I only know that Buffalo is definitely a foundation from Mexico, and I'm wondering if the other above Carmels noted for their strictness are either French or Spanish in origin. Not that that proves or disproves anything (France has some pretty strict non-Carmels!), but I'm just curious...

Another random question... but since we're speaking Carmels, shouldn't vee8 be back by now? Hmmmmm....
[/quote]

[LadyOfSorrows]

The Carmels founded from Buffalo are all Spanish! So are Elysburg and Valpraiso.

I believe Del Plaines is a French Carmel. I actually think there might be a thread on the differences between the two types...

I believe most in the US are Spanish, but I have heard of a few French ones, just not very many...

[carmelite15]

[quote name='littlellama17' timestamp='1290810256' post='2189420']
I recently visited Morristown Carmel in Morristown, NJ (northern NJ) and from what Mother Prioress told me, they're pretty strict. Those who enter come with nothing (that's ok), no prescription medicine of any kind, straw mattresses, midnight office making only about 5 hours of sleep, no socks (true discalced carmies!), burlap habit, no phone calls, etc. They had a double grille in the speakroom..it made me dizzy!!!! LOL. Philly and Flemington do not have double grilles. Also, when I visited, the nuns no longer use the turn so they have more time for prayer. They have lay people who take care of accepting donations, etc. No extern sisters as of yet...they could use one!
They also have the Divine Office in Latin which is very beautiful!!!!!
[/quote]

Oh wow they sound really strict! do you know anything else about them?

[OnlySunshine]

Sorry, double post. DSL gave out on me for a second...

Edited November 27, 2010 by MaterMisericordiae

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='reminiscere' timestamp='1290822452' post='2189450']
I believe Buffalo, Alexandria and Brooklyn; Valparaiso and Elysburg.

I'm not sure how Rochester is now that it's merged with Schenectady. Schenectady was Buffalo's first foundation and was the Spanish style of Carmel, being founded by the Mexican Mothers. Rochester on the other hand was part of the Port Tobacco family if I'm not mistaken... but then again Brooklyn originally was too but in 1997 when there were a few news articles before they closed, Constance Fitzgerald called them the strictest in the world if I recall correctly, but who knows?
[/quote]

The new Brooklyn Carmel is a foundation established by the Buffalo Carmel. All the older nuns that came over were originally from Buffalo. They decided to reestablish the Brooklyn Carmel in 2004 after the death of the nuns when the Brooklyn monastery closed in 1997. When it closed, most of the nuns that were in Brooklyn merged with Buffalo but there was always a hope that they might be able to reestablish themselves. Sadly, none of them saw that dream.

Brooklyn is very much like Buffalo Carmel. They both have Latin/Gregorian Chant but have regular Novus Ordo Mass. Mother Maria in Buffalo stated, when I was discerning with them last year, that they hope to have the Latin Mass again, but they have no plans for it yet.

Alexandria is also a foundation of the Buffalo Carmel. Buffalo was begun by Mother Mary Elias of the Blessed Sacrament after immigrating from Mexico to escape persecution. She first started a Carmel in Grand Rapids, MI (which has now moved to Ada Parnell, MI) but she had promised St. Therese that she would build a monastery in her honor if she would pray for Mother's protection. That prayer came true and the Buffalo Carmel is the Carmel in honor of St. Therese. People said on the day of its dedication, you could smell the scent of roses, almost as if St. Therese was walking the halls and spreading her saintly fragrance everywhere. Pretty cool.

Valparaiso and Elysburg, on the other hand, are pretty much the same. They are both Ecclesiae Dei Carmels and celebrate the Tridentine Mass exclusively. Elysburg is a foundation from Valparaiso, begun in April 2009. Valparaiso is still bursting at the seams with 30 nuns and will probably have to establish another Carmel soon since St. Teresa of Avila wanted only 21 nuns in each Carmel.

Just in case anyone would like to see Mother Elias of the Blessed Sacrament, this is her picture:

[img]http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_NJd0pYUa1U0/RcEmMXv8tUI/AAAAAAAAAV0/ikQfrEy2kRE/s200/Thierry+OCD.jpg[/img]

Also, this is a biography someone posted that I also read from a booklet sent to me by the Buffalo Carmel when I asked for information awhile ago:

http://fountainofelias.blogspot.com/2009/07/mother-mary-elias-of-blessed-sacrament.html

[reminiscere]

MM, yes I know Brooklyn very well because I was at their open house and have visited since. I have also been to Buffalo many times. In my post which you quoted I was referring the old Brooklyn Carmel on St. John's Place not the new one founded in 2004 which is just like Buffalo and Alexandria in many respects... children ultimately of Grand Rapids and before, Mexico.

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='reminiscere' timestamp='1290827365' post='2189476']
MM, yes I know Brooklyn very well because I was at their open house and have visited since. I have also been to Buffalo many times. In my post which you quoted I was referring the old Brooklyn Carmel on St. John's Place not the new one founded in 2004 which is just like Buffalo and Alexandria in many respects... children ultimately of Grand Rapids and before, Mexico.
[/quote]

Sorry if it sounded like I was correcting you. That was not my intent at all. Not many people know the history of Brooklyn, so I thought it would be fun to post it. For some reason, I accidentally quoted you instead of just hitting "add reply."

Edited November 27, 2010 by MaterMisericordiae

[dominicansoul]

where IS vee???

[OnlySunshine]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1290836369' post='2189493']
where IS vee???
[/quote]

I wonder if she extended her stay? From her status, it said her stay would only be 3 weeks, but sometimes, people can extend visits to monasteries, particularly if there is a good chance that they might enter. I had another friend do this and she ended up entering but it was not a Carmelite monastery. It would be very exciting to hear what happened.

[dominicansoul]

well, i hope she lets us know somehow!

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='holly.o' timestamp='1290823991' post='2189458']
Random question that's somewhat off-topic (sorry, brandee!)... I heard someone once say there are Spanish- & French-descended Carmels and that they have different styles. Does anyone know which are which in the US?

I only know that Buffalo is definitely a foundation from Mexico, and I'm wondering if the other above Carmels noted for their strictness are either French or Spanish in origin. Not that that proves or disproves anything (France has some pretty strict non-Carmels!), but I'm just curious...

Another random question... but since we're speaking Carmels, shouldn't vee8 be back by now? Hmmmmm....
[/quote]

Great question! Here's a way you can tell on this google album that has been posted about here before .. there are some scanned pages from a book that has a flow chart of where all the foundations (up to the year 1990) came from .. [url="http://picasaweb.google.com/ocdnuns/UnitedStatesFoundations17901990#5056127004945079938"]http://picasaweb.goo...127004945079938[/url] and you can zoom in there .. go to the next page to see the Spanish Carmels

Most Carmels in the US are French actually (from a Carmel in Belgium which came from France). Yes, there's really no difference as far as strictness between the French and Spanish customs. Actually Mother Agnes, the Novice Mistress/SubPrioress in Valparaiso, mentioned something about the French customs being a little more severe/stark .. something like that .. whereas there's, generally speaking, more of a family spirit in the Spanish customs .. I would think because Spanish/Latino cultures tend to be more social .. but that's a generalization, and only a guess. But I have also heard that French Carmels tend to emphasize solitude a bit more too ..

One very strict/traditional French Carmel that hasn't been mentioned yet is the one in Lake Elmo, MN. There is pretty much nothing about them online .. although I found a little something [url="http://www.christendom.edu/alumni/grapevineonline/GV2005/september05.html"]here[/url] (search Lake Elmo) about one of the nuns who went to Christendom .. what a great sense of humor she has!

Vee told me she was coming back on the 27th She was visiting Indwelling's community ..

Edited November 27, 2010 by Chiquitunga

[HopefulBride]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1290836369' post='2189493']
where IS vee???
[/quote]

DS,

I was wondering the same thing. I just can't wait to get her feedback on how it went.

[krissylou]

[quote name='HopefulBride' timestamp='1290872654' post='2189539']
DS,

I was wondering the same thing. I just can't wait to get her feedback on how it went.
[/quote]

I think she was coming back today!

[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/clap2.gif[/img]

[HopefulBride]

[quote name='krissylou' timestamp='1290894053' post='2189567']
I think she was coming back today!

[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/clap2.gif[/img]
[/quote]

Yaaaay