Pcpa Vows

[DameAgnes]

http://www.stjosephmonastery.com/

[Totally Franciscan]

Does anyone else see something very odd here? The last time I saw photos of this young woman on the St. Joseph Monastery website, less than a year ago, she was in street clothes. At that time, she was a dead ringer for Sr. Marie St. Anne, who had made profession at the Hanceville Monastery. It also might be Sr. Maria Magdalena, Sr. Marie St. Anne's blood sister. They look very similar, so I cannot tell which one it is. Sr. Marie St. Anne, as a postulant, has her vocation story on the internet. Take a look. I think it is the same person.

[reminiscere]

It can be neither. Both Srs. Marie Ste. Anne and Maria Magdalena were still in OLAM in Spring 2008... two years ago.

[url="http://www.olamshrine.com/newsletter/Spring%202008.pdf"]http://www.olamshrine.com/newsletter/Spring%202008.pdf[/url]

You need at least 4 years minimum to make final vows in any community.

[quote name='Totally Franciscan' timestamp='1290807499' post='2189419']
Does anyone else see something very odd here? The last time I saw photos of this young woman on the St. Joseph Monastery website, less than a year ago, she was in street clothes. At that time, she was a dead ringer for Sr. Marie St. Anne, who had made profession at the Hanceville Monastery. It also might be Sr. Maria Magdalena, Sr. Marie St. Anne's blood sister. They look very similar, so I cannot tell which one it is. Sr. Marie St. Anne, as a postulant, has her vocation story on the internet. Take a look. I think it is the same person.
[/quote]

[Totally Franciscan]

Well, Spring 2008 was almost three years ago, and I know things have changed drastically at OLAM. You will perhaps remember that Sr. Mary Catherine and Sr. Margaret Mary went on sebatical. That is going on at least a year and a half. There is a Benedictine nun as superior now and a Poor Clare as novice mistress.

So my point is that Sr. Mary Raphel, who just made profession, was pictured in street clothes in the community photos less than a year ago. They had taken those photos offline quite a while ago. I was surprised to see the photos again in a vocation paper I think for that diocese in North Carolina; I will have to research that. As you say, it takes a minimum of one year postulancy and two years novitiate before profession. I think it is entirely feasible that either Sr. Marie St. Anne or Sr. Maria Magdalena left for whatever reason and asked to enter at St. Joseph's Monastery. I think the original postulancy and novitiate would suffice in this instance and a short period of formation at St. Joseph's before profession.

Does anyone else have information on this?

[Totally Franciscan]

Compare the photo from Sr. Raphael's profession to the newsletter that Reminiscere posted with Sr. Marie St. Anne's photo. From my vantage point, they are identical. After seeing Sr. Maria Magdalena's photo, I don't think it is her in the profession photo.

[Totally Franciscan]

http://www.stjosephmonastery.com/newsletter_forms/April2010.pdf

This is the newsletter from Spring 2010. Sr. Mary Raphael is in none of the photos. I am still researching the vocation page with her photo.

[reminiscere]

Totally Franciscan, in charity to OLAM you're posting some information which most PM'ers might not even know... or should know...

[u]You missed my point[/u] - it takes according to the Code of Canon Law, no less than 4 years to be validly, finally professed - the canonical novitiate year and three years of temporary vows. Ergo - it cannot be either of the two sisters.

[reminiscere]

Also - and I will admit the possibility - even if the sister received an indult of transfer and professed under a different name, [u]it is no one's business except the sister herself and her community[/u].

Nosiness and asking impertinent questions, whether we realize it or not, will merit us nothing and serves no good purpose.

[Totally Franciscan]

http://www.charlottediocese.org/customers/101092709242178/filemanager/CNH%20Docs/CN_Com_Issue_08_06.pdf

I had no intention of being uncharitable. If you will review my posts, I said nothing uncharitable. I was pointing out the strange set of events with regard to this profession. Please see the August 6th edition of the Charlotte Diocese newspaper for photos. Also, that is Bishop Baker of the Birmingham Diocese in the Profession photo. Bishop Jugis is bishop of Charlotte Diocese.

[Totally Franciscan]

After thinking this over, Reminiscere is correct. None of this is any of my business. I apologize to everyone at Phatmas for sticking my nose someplace it does not below. I beg your forgiveness.

[krissylou]

[quote name='Totally Franciscan' timestamp='1290827607' post='2189477']
[url="http://www.charlottediocese.org/customers/101092709242178/filemanager/CNH%20Docs/CN_Com_Issue_08_06.pdf"]http://www.charlotte...Issue_08_06.pdf[/url]

I had no intention of being uncharitable. If you will review my posts, I said nothing uncharitable. I was pointing out the strange set of events with regard to this profession. Please see the August 6th edition of the Charlotte Diocese newspaper for photos. Also, that is Bishop Baker of the Birmingham Diocese in the Profession photo. Bishop Jugis is bishop of Charlotte Diocese.
[/quote]

Maybe she transferred to help shore up the Charlotte monastery, which recently moved from Ohio after not getting any new professions in for-ev-er.

Hanceville is in some transition period after Mother Angelica's retirement, of course, and while I know nothing about any specifics, I do know that as a general rule such transitions are nearly always challenging. But still they had what, four new novices clothed over the summer? They're not hurting for new vocations.

And there's nothing wrong with transferring. Even Benedict, who put such emphasis on stability that it's one of the three Benedictine vows (stability, obedience, conversion of life) has provisions in the Rule for transferring from one monastery to another. It doesn't happen often, but sometimes it happens and it can be perfectly fine and good.

Or maybe it's someone else who looks remarkably similar.

Or who knows.

[Jarrah]

[quote name='reminiscere' timestamp='1290824366' post='2189461']
Totally Franciscan, in charity to OLAM you're posting some information which most PM'ers might not even know... or should know...

What's so wrong with being open and honest???

[Luigi]

I see nothing uncharitable - intentionally or otherwise - about Totally Franciscan's posts. Clearly she is simply trying to put two and two together -- If A, and B, then how can C? Or maybe if A, and D, then C would make some sense. Totally Franciscan did not state or imply anything negative about St. Joseph's, Our Lady of the Angels, or the woman who made vows. Anyone who thinks she did is being overly sensitive.

In the absence of solid information - in this case, a published explanation from either monastery - people will try to make sense of a situation by piecing together the information they have. It's natural, it's human, it's not uncharitable.

No harm, no foul.

[Luigi]

[quote name='reminiscere' timestamp='1290824589' post='2189463']
Also - and I will admit the possibility - even if the sister received an indult of transfer and professed under a different name, [u]it is no one's business except the sister herself and her community[/u].

[i]Aren't religioius vows public, the same as wedding vows, especially since they (both religious vows and marriage vows) are made within the context of Mass and Mass is a public celebration? I thought they were. In which case, who makes profession in which monastery is public information, worthy for all the church to know and celebrate.[/i]

Nosiness and asking impertinent questions, whether we realize it or not, will merit us nothing and serves no good purpose.
[/quote]

Edited November 27, 2010 by Luigi

[Chiquitunga]

[quote name='Totally Franciscan' timestamp='1290807499' post='2189419']
Does anyone else see something very odd here? The last time I saw photos of this young woman on the St. Joseph Monastery website, less than a year ago, she was in street clothes. At that time, she was a dead ringer for Sr. Marie St. Anne, who had made profession at the Hanceville Monastery. It also might be Sr. Maria Magdalena, Sr. Marie St. Anne's blood sister. They look very similar, so I cannot tell which one it is. Sr. Marie St. Anne, as a postulant, has her vocation story on the internet. Take a look. I think it is the same person.
[/quote]
Yes, this was definitely Sr. Marie St. Anne, who was Sr. Allison as a postulant here ..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKu7dYa1DoU

I think it's great she's in one of their foundations now, and was allowed to make her profession earlier as she was already professed at OLAM. Congratulations to her!

[DameAgnes]

I am sorry I posted this link, as it seems to have generated a lot of speculation, which was not my intent.

The transitional shift at OLAM has made a dramatic change to the community, and since no one actually knows anything for certain it seems busybodyish to carry on about it.

I am the first one to say I love hearing news about entrances, clothings and professions, but it seems to me in a case like this, which causes such speculation, the monastery should either take an opportunity to [i]educate[/i] people about how such things work or not make their announcement at all. Any other choice just gives rise to this sort of chatty wondering.

I am not being critical of PM'ers, either. I don't think anyone has been uncharitable. But running on so little information seems almost gossipy to me. In a convent there is "custody of the eyes..." We should try to have custody of our curiosity, perhaps. A thread like this might scare a monastery off from ever creating a blog, and that would be a loss to all of us and them, too.

Monastic bloggers need to know that sometimes their readers need to know how things work in a monastery. And monastic blog readers need to realize that they are actually not ENTITLED to know anything more than the monastery wants them to know.

Hmmm...a conundrum! :-)

[reminiscere]

[quote]"On November 21st, our aspirant Allison will be receiving the Holy Habit and her new name, as well as professing temporary Vows. Please keep her in your prayers as she prepares for this great day and stay tuned to hear the name that God has chosen for this new beginning in her life." [/quote]

- St. Joseph Monastery Newsletter, October 2010

[organwerke]

I'm with Dame Agnes on this.
Not to offend anyone, since I too think that no one wanted to be uncharitable, and probably I too made gossip in past threads, but things like this thread are the reason for, if I had ever entered religious life, I wouldn't have discerned with those communities who have a blog and share "too many" informations publicly.

[DameAgnes]

[quote name='organwerke' timestamp='1290895566' post='2189569']
I'm with Dame Agnes on this.
Not to offend anyone, since I too think that no one wanted to be uncharitable, and probably I too made gossip in past threads, but things like this thread are the reason for, if I had ever entered religious life, I wouldn't have discerned with those communities who have a blog and share "too many" informations publicly.
[/quote]

I think the distinction really is between a community that shares part of its life online but also make a true effort to educate its readers as to what the life is, why it is lived as it is, etc...for instance the way the Summit Dominicans and the Whitesville Passionists make a real effort to highlight particular practices or ceremonies--or (over time) explain what each particular prayer hour is like - these things are really helpful informationally, particularly for men and women who are just starting to feel "nudged" and have no clue what the monastic life might be like, or what it means. It is helpful to the monasteries, too - they both inspire vocations and benefit from inquiries that might not otherwise have been made, and financially they find new benefactors.

But if you are inviting readers to share happy news, you have a responsibility to anticipate questions and answer them. Some communities--even those who post very infrequently on their lives, like the Benedictines at St. Walburga's--do this very well. They share what they want, and give explanation, and what they don't wish to explain, they don't share. This seems wise to me.

Right now it looks like all of the Mother-Angelica-connected PCPA's are enduring stressful and transitional times - Hanceville, with the retirement of Mother Angelica, Phoenix with the building and now moving into their new living space, North Carolina, with their move and attempts to rebuild, and even the Texas mission with their Anglican Rite adjustments. Perhaps all of this indicates growing pains, but certainly all of these nuns who sought enclosure and are suddenly living without it (sometimes for years) or who sought to be part of a very public abbey that has found a need to pull back a little, are enduring a great deal and could use our prayers, more than anything else.

[strgzr00]

[quote name='DameAgnes' timestamp='1290921234' post='2189624']
I think the distinction really is between a community that shares part of its life online but also make a true effort to educate its readers as to what the life is, why it is lived as it is, etc...for instance the way the Summit Dominicans and the Whitesville Passionists make a real effort to highlight particular practices or ceremonies--or (over time) explain what each particular prayer hour is like - these things are really helpful informationally, particularly for men and women who are just starting to feel "nudged" and have no clue what the monastic life might be like, or what it means. It is helpful to the monasteries, too - they both inspire vocations and benefit from inquiries that might not otherwise have been made, and financially they find new benefactors.

But if you are inviting readers to share happy news, you have a responsibility to anticipate questions and answer them. Some communities--even those who post very infrequently on their lives, like the Benedictines at St. Walburga's--do this very well. They share what they want, and give explanation, and what they don't wish to explain, they don't share. This seems wise to me.

Right now it looks like all of the Mother-Angelica-connected PCPA's are enduring stressful and transitional times - Hanceville, with the retirement of Mother Angelica, Phoenix with the building and now moving into their new living space, North Carolina, with their move and attempts to rebuild, and even the Texas mission with their Anglican Rite adjustments. Perhaps all of this indicates growing pains, but certainly all of these nuns who sought enclosure and are suddenly living without it (sometimes for years) or who sought to be part of a very public abbey that has found a need to pull back a little, are enduring a great deal and could use our prayers, more than anything else.
[/quote]

The one reason that I think that some discussion or awareness of conditions within communities might be useful is for the candidates to at least be aware of the situation before they enter, so that they are prepared. Otherwise they may feel blindsided by the information they discover upon entry, the inevitable presence of cliques, and strong differences of opinion. In particular many young women may be bewildered by this information, as they have entered thinking that religious life is a beautiful dream. They will find out soon enough what it's all about, but they don't need the added burden of being caught up in internal politics of which they were totally unaware.

Similarly, I feel that in considering the carmels and Poor Clare monasteries, it is a good idea to be aware of the level of austerity practiced in the individual houses.