New Member

[Ice_nine]

I was raised Catholic, and then I saw the "light" and got all into that "it's not a religion, it's a relationship" jargon and was very anti-Catholic.


But when that got me absolutely nowhere I looked at what the Catholic church actually teaches versus the bs people spit about it and lookie where I am now. I know it's anecdotal, but hopefully you'll come around.

God bless you on your journey to the truth my friend

[AudreyGrace]

Hey pj, welcome to phatmass! I'm fairly new myself, but I'm getting along.
I'd just like to mention that your bragging of your previous Church position was anything but Christian. Catholicism teaches humility, so maybe you weren't brought up all that well in the faith.
Here's something from the book of James that completely supports good works in cooperation with faith, showing that faith alone is not enough.
"So also faith of itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Indeed someone might say, 'You have faith and I have works.' Demonstrate your faith to me without works, and I will demonstrate my faith to you from my works. You believe that God is one. You do well. Even the demons believe that and tremble. Do you want proof, you ignoramus, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by the works. Thus the scripture was fulfilled that says, 'Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.' and he was called the 'friend of God'. See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." --James 2:17-24

During the protestant reformation, after the New Testament was compiled, protestant leaders took it upon themselves to decide which parts of the Bible they liked. In some versions of the Bible, this book of James was taken out in order to maintain support of the more desirable (yet false) belief that faith alone is enough. This is tampering with the Word of God, and it is warned against as a grave and horrible sin.
As Catholics, we believe that Jesus set up a teaching authority through his apostles. Repeatedly in the Bible, he told us to "listen.." Jesus said to Peter, "Upon you, my rock, I shall build my Church." That is why, in our creed, we acknowledge our belief in the "one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church." Apostolic meaning descending from the Apostles.
"Rely not on your own understanding." Jesus set up a teaching authority which has been passed down through the Church to help us understand the God-inspired scriptures.

I hope you take a deeper and more personal look into the Catholic Church, both in the past and the here & now. On the surface, it does sometimes look like a mosh posh of meaningless symbols and tradition. But when you do research from sources other than Catholic-haters, everything can be unraveled and explained. I know this because I did the same thing.

Finally, it's sad that our Christian brothers and sisters feel the need to put down the Catholic Church simply to strengthen their own following. I pray that you find the same truth and peace of mind in the Catholic Church as I have.

Oh one more thing... if humans are evil because of original sin, and if we are not worthy of anything, that goes against the whole Christian belief of God's undying love for us. He views us as beautiful creations and he yearns for a personal and intimate relationship with him. Putting down his creations by demeaning the human race and saying anything other than we were created through God's love as his children whom he loves, is dissing the Creator- God himself. Analogy- if you tell someone that a certain painting smells of elderberries, you are dissing and disrespecting the painter. Although the portrait still has flaws, the artist is still proud of it, although sometimes wishes a certain aspect were different. Does that make sense?

Hope you have a happy, healthy, truthful New Year!

Edited January 1, 2011 by AudreyGrace

[add]

[quote name='pjrizzo' timestamp='1293828595' post='2195526']
[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]My testimony[/size][/font]
----------------------------
[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]saved by Grace
PR[/size][/font]
[/quote]

Have you ever said the "Apostles Creed", [i]pjrizzo? [/i][i]do you even know what it is or appreciate its meanings?[/i] The Creed is the unifying symbol of the historical Christian faith that, among other beliefs, provides guidelines for the Trinity, Jesus' divinity, and the creation of the world by one God.

Someone with your background, if you are, as you say, you are, should be able to comprehend The New Testament .[i]with [/i][i]all[/i][i] of [/i][i]its many idiosyncrasies.
[/i]
I 'am sorry but I find it hard to believe that you are sincere.

[Winchester]

I think it's hilarious you used extra-Bibilical sources to prove that extra-Bibilical sources aren't valid.



Arius read the Bible, too.

[dairygirl4u2c]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1293889320' post='2195679']
I think it's hilarious you used extra-Bibilical sources to prove that extra-Bibilical sources aren't valid.



Arius read the Bible, too.
[/quote]

slammed

[Jaime]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1293889320' post='2195679']
I think it's hilarious you used extra-Bibilical sources to prove that extra-Bibilical sources aren't valid.



Arius read the Bible, too.
[/quote]

that is brilliant. You should totally friend me on facebook

[Lil Red]

[quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1293905447' post='2195716']
that is brilliant. You should totally friend me on facebook
[/quote]
so he can spam your wall?

[HopefulBride]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1293834040' post='2195556']

[/quote]

yes

[MIKolbe]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1293907219' post='2195722']
so he can spam your wall?
[/quote]
SOMEone's jealous...

[Winchester]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1293919798' post='2195762']
SOMEone's jealous...


[/quote]
Green-eyed monster, Mav.

[MIKolbe]

worse than Iceman, Goose.. worse than Ice.....

[Lisa]

Hi! We welcome to phatmass- I'm also fairly new on here. I just wanted to say that (speaking for myself, and I feel most of the other people on here that I've talked to so far), that we do have a relationship with Jesus Christ, who is our Savior! Just because truth is found WITHIN Catholicism, doesn't negate the relationship that we have. To me, it seems like that is saying "I only have a relationship with X family member, but we don't "do" anything together".[img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/blush.gif[/img] Look around the site. I think you'll see that Catholics here, around the world, and the Catholic saints definitely have a [b]relationship[/b] with Jesus... yes, it is an unfortunate thing that not all Catholics (or Christians of any denomination) know of His unending mercy and love. But religion is not the source of this tragedy. And we are all called to show Christ to one another- I admire you for bringing such conviction. But please be respectful of our faith. I hope the other phatmassers will show that same respect to you.

There is truth in what you said about James... that actions flow out of faith- but we choose to [b]live out[/b] our our faith with "doing" something [b]FOR and WITH[/b] the Lord. That truth is found in our beautiful Catholic faith.

[Cam42]

Before I go any further with this conversation....I have a simple question for pjrizzo.

Is there any way that I will be able to prove to you that there is Truth in the Catholic Church?

[pjrizzo]

[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Comparison of several Biblical Doctrines with Official Roman Catholic Dogma. [/size][/font]

[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]There are dozens more and I will continue to update. [/size][/font]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] The law of non-contradiction (to opposing ideas can not both be true at the same time) demonstrates that Roman Catholicism and Biblical Christianity can not both be true. In fact, if Biblical Christianity is proven true, then any other world religion or belief system must be false. Our eternal future (heaven or hell) is determined by what we believe.[/font][/size]

[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b]Source of Catholic Dogma[/b]: The following [i]De Fide[/i] statements comprise "Our Catholic Faith without which it is impossible to please God" (The Council of Trent, and Vatican II. These positive "articles of faith" have the function of fundamental principles which the faithful accepts without discussion as being certain and sure by virtue of the authority of God, Who is absolute truth (Council of the Vatican). They represent the mind of Christ.[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b]Source of Bible statements[/b]: the inerrant, infallible Word of God as clearly understood by any believer.[/font][/size]

[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font]



[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b]1[/b]. [b]Catholic[/b]-The canon of Scripture (Bible) was determined by the [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b] [/b] Catholic Church and must be interpreted by the [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b] [/b]Mageserium[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [b]Bible- [/b][/font][/size]

[list][list][*][font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Eternal- Ps 119:89; Is 40:8; Mark 13:31.[/size][/font][*][font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Divinely inspired- 2 Tim 3:16; 2 Pet 1:20; 1 Thess 2:13[/size][/font][*][font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Understood by even children- 2 Tim 3:15[/size][/font][*][font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Believed by Jesus, the apostles; discovered by early church- Matt 4:4; 5:17; John 10:35; Matt 26:34; Luke 24:44; [/size][/font][/list][/list][size="3"]·[/size] [size="3"]Jesus taught His disciples that they were His desig­nated witnesses and spokesmen (Luke 24:48; Acts 1:8; John 15:27). As His students, they learned His teachings so that they, in turn, might impart these principles to others. This was even true to the extent that those who believed and obeyed the disci­ples' words would actually be receiving Jesus Christ Himself (Matt. 10:14-15, 40; John 13:20). [/size]

[size="3"]·[/size] [size="3"]Jesus also promised His disciples the inspiration and guidance of the Holy Spirit. He would teach them addition­al matters (John 16:12-13), causing them to remember Jesus' words (John 14:26), and revealing to them the future (John 16:13b). Perhaps the key item is that, in all these matters, the Holy Spirit would lead the disciples to truth (John 16:13a). [/size]

[size="3"]·[/size] [size="3"]Jesus additionally promised that the Holy Spirit would assist His students in their teaching. This twofold promise paved the way for the inspiration of the New Testament. [/size]

[size="3"]·[/size] [size="3"]As the New Testament writers penned their words, they recognized that they were inspired. They claimed Jesus' twofold promise. The apostles' teachings were based on the foundation that Jesus provided (Eph. 2:20; 2 Pet. 3:2; Heb. 2:3-4). They believed their words were inspired (1 Peter l:12b). This is especially evident in Paul's epistles. They were con­vinced that the Holy Spirit empowered both their teaching and their writing. [/size]

[size="3"]·[/size] [size="3"]The New Testament writers recognized that Jesus' promise of inspiration also extended to other writers, as well. For instance, I Timothy 5:18 notes two citations, referring to both as Scripture. The first is obviously drawn from Deuteronomy 25:4. Although the second is similar to certain Old Testament texts, it is nowhere quoted. Actually, this saying is the same as that in Luke 10:7 (cf. Matt. 10:10), spoken by Jesus. Comparing a quote from the Law to one found in the teachings of Jesus, and calling them both Scripture, is certainly significant, and for more than one reason. It shows some conviction that the existing canon of inspired texts, consisting only of Old Testament writings, is not the end of the matter. After all, if any writings are considered to be inspired, the words of Jesus should be included! Moreover, Jesus' saying is even placed on a par with the Law itself. Further, New Testament texts by other authors were also recognized. [/size]

[size="3"]·[/size] [size="3"]Another example is found in 2 Peter 3:15-16, where Paul's epistles are placed alongside other Scripture, thereby being given the same status. Additionally, Jude 17-18 seems to cite 2 Peter 3:3 (or a common text) as the words of an apostle.[/size]

[size="3"]·[/size] [size="3"]Jesus continually refuted the Pharisees by saying, “have you not read?, He refuted the devil himself with Scripture stating three times, “it is written”.[/size]



[font="Century Gothic"] [/font]

[list][*][font="Century Gothic"][b][size="3"]Catholic[/size][/b]- The Catholic Church was founded by the God- [/font][/list][font="Century Gothic"] man, Jesus Christ.[/font]

[font="Century Gothic"][b][size="3"]Bible[/size][/b]- The one true church is that which is founded on Christ [/font]

[font="Century Gothic"][b] [/b] himself and is comprised by all who trust Jesus as their [/font]

[font="Century Gothic"] only Lord and Savior. Matt 16:18; Eph 2:20; [/font]

[font="Century Gothic"] 1 Cor 3 : 11 ,16; 1 Pet 2:5.[/font]



[list][*][font="Century Gothic"][b][size="3"]Catholic[/size][/b]- Christ appointed the Apostle Peter to be the first of [/font][/list][b] [/b][font="Century Gothic"] all the Apostles and to be the visible Head of the
whole Catholic Church, by appointing him [/font]

[font="Century Gothic"] and personally to the primacy of jurisdiction.[/font]

[font="Century Gothic"][b][size="3"]Bible[/size][/b]- “you are Peter (Petros) and upon this rock (petras, [/font]

[font="Century Gothic"] Peter’s confession of faith,) I will build my church” [/font]

[font="Century Gothic"] Matt 16:18[/font]

[size="3"]·[/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Immediately after talking of the foundation of the church, Jesus rebukes Peter saying, “get behind me satan, you are a scandal to me for you mind the things of men…”[/size][/font]

[size="3"]·[/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Peter denied Jesus with cursing and swearing. Matt 26:69-75[/size][/font]

[size="3"]·[/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Jesus rebuked Peter for his lack of faith. Matt 14:22-31[/size][/font]

[size="3"]·[/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocritical and disobeying the gospel. Gal 2:11[/size][/font]

[size="3"]·[/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Peter was married. Matt 8:14[/size][/font]

[size="3"]·[/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Peter had no authority of other apostles. All received guidance directly from the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:1-4; Eph 3:3-5; John 16:13; 14:26.[/size][/font]

[size="3"]·[/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]James was the spokesman at the Jerusalem council (determining church practice) Acts 15.[/size][/font]

[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font]

[b][size="3"]4.[/size][/b][size="3"] [b]Catholic[/b]- Mary was conceived without the stain of original sin.
Mary is the Immaculate Conception.[/size]

[size="3"] [b] Bible[/b]- all have sinned and fall short…..Rom 3:23[/size]

[size="3"] No one seeks after good, no not one -Ps 14[/size]

[size="3"] Death spread to all because all sinned- Rom 5:13[/size]

[size="3"] All are conceived in sin- Ps 51:5[/size]

[size="3"] I (Mary) rejoice in God [b]my savior- [/b]Luke 1:47[/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [b]Catholic[/b]- Mary was assumed body and soul into Heaven.[/font] [/size]

[size="3"] [font="Century Gothic"][b]Bible[/b]- body goes to the ground, spirit goes to heaven or hell- [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Eccl 12:7; 1 Cor 15:36.[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [b]Catholic[/b]- Mary is Queen of Heaven, co-redemptrix with Jesus in v [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] salvation[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [b]Bible[/b]- Jesus alone is the Savior, redeemer of those who call on His [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b] [/b] Name- Acts 4:12. Mary was a humble woman used of God [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] she is now dead and can not be communicated with. [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Lev 19:21; Deut 18:10-13, Lev 20:27. [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] God is angered for idolizing the Queen of heaven- Jer 7:18- [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] 21 [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [/font][/size]

[list][*][size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b]Catholic[/b]- It is permissible to venerate images of saints; invoke [/font][/size][/list][size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] intercession and to pray for the dead in purgatory.[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [b]Bible[/b]- Let no one among you consult the dead. It is detestable- [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Deut 18:10-13. [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Only one mediator between God and man; Jesus- 1 Tim 2:5[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] man is destined to die once, then the judgment- Heb 9:27[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] A time is coming when all in their graves will rise, some to [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] eternal life, some to eternal punishment- Jn 5:28-29, Dan 12:2[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Separation of sheep and goats- Matt 25:32[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Great white throne judgment- 20:11[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [/font][/size]

[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font]

[list][*][size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b]Catholic[/b]- the sacraments of the new covenant are necessary for [/font][/size][/list][size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] the salvation of mankind.[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Baptism remits all punishments of sin.[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [b]Bible[/b]- we are saved by grace alone, not by works- Eph 2:8-10[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] If you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe…. [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] you will be saved- Rom 10:9.[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] All who call on the Name of the Lord will be saved-[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Rom 10:13[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Whosoever believes will not perish- Jn 3:16[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] The righteous shall live by faith- Hab 2:4; Rom 1:17[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] By works shall no man be justified- Gal 2:16; 3:14[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] By one sacrifice [b]He has perfected [/b]those who are being[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] sanctified. [/font][/size]

[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font]

[list][*][size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b]Catholic[/b]- the body and blood of Christ are truly, really, and [/font][/size][/list][size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Substantially present at the eucharist, during the [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] sacrifice of the mass.[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [b]Bible[/b]- Jesus took bread and wine as symbols. Do this in [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] remembrance of me- Luke 22:19; 1 Cor 11:24.[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] He is seated at the right hand of the father in heavenly [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] places- Luke 22:69; Eph 1:20; Col 3:1.[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Jesus is the Great High Priest who ever lives to make[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] intercession for us- Rom 8:34; Heb 7:25-29.[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Jesus offered once for all time, a sacrifice for sin- Heb 10:9[/font][/size]

[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font]

[list][*][size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b]Catholic[/b]- by the church’s absolution, sins are remitted.[/font][/size][/list][size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b]Bible[/b]- without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins-[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Heb 9:22[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] The wages of sin is death- 6:23[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] The soul that sins it shall die- Ex 18:20[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Christ himself, through faith in his blood, is the propitiation for [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] our sins- Rom 3:25; 1 Jn 2:2; 4:10.[/font][/size]

[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font]

[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font]

[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font]

[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font]

[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font]

[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font]

[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font]

[list][*][size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b]Catholic[/b]- rites and sacraments to be administered under the office [/font][/size][/list][size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] of the priest.[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [b] Bible[/b]- one mediator between God and man, Jesus- 1 Tim 2:5[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] We (believers) are a royal priesthood- 1 Pet 2:9[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] He has made us a kingdom of priests to God- Rev 1:6[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] We can come boldly to the throne of Grace…. Heb 4:16[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [/font][/size]

[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font]

[size="3"] [/size]

[size="3"] [/size]

[size="3"] [/size]

[size="3"] [/size]

[size="3"] [/size]

[size="3"] [/size]

[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font]

[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font]

[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font]


[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1293830399' post='2195535']
welcome to phatmass. For someone who claims to be catholic you haver a very flawed education of catholic teaching.

The New Testament is a collection of documents put together by the Catholic Church, and is the sole guarentee of its authenticity. To believe in the Scriptures one must automatically believe in the Church, because the Scripture is a snapshot of the early church and teachings. It never claims to hold all knowledge demanded of it by those people that erronously hold to Sola Scriptura. I have read the entire Scriptue 5x and find it a deep and enriching fountain, but nothing that contradicts the Catholic Church from which it has been entrusted.



" I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I'm also being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)."
[/quote]

[Lisa]

Hi again! Question- just because you have picked out a single line from a single document in the catholic church, and your views on the bible have multiple points, doesn't mean we disagree. For instance:
[quote name='pjrizzo' timestamp='1293925882' post='2195781']
[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b]Source of Bible statements[/b]: the inerrant, infallible Word of God as clearly understood by any believer.[/font][/size]


[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b]1[/b]. [b]Catholic[/b]-The canon of Scripture (Bible) was determined by the [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b] [/b] Catholic Church and must be interpreted by the [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b] [/b]Mageserium[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [b]Bible- [/b][/font][/size]

[list][list][*][font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Eternal- Ps 119:89; Is 40:8; Mark 13:31.[/size][/font][*][font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Divinely inspired- 2 Tim 3:16; 2 Pet 1:20; 1 Thess 2:13[/size][/font][*][font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Understood by even children- 2 Tim 3:15[/size][/font][*][font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Believed by Jesus, the apostles; discovered by early church- Matt 4:4; 5:17; John 10:35; Matt 26:34; Luke 24:44; [/size][/font][/list][/list][size="3"]·[/size]
[/quote]

We believe that the bible is divinely inspired (the Catechism: "[i]Sacred Scripture[/i] is the speech of God as it is put down in writing under the breath of the Holy Spirit.") , we believe that is the the eternal word of God. Note that you have written- the "Canon" was determined by the Church. Which is true. Other books, claiming to be "gospels" were rejected because they were determined as heretical- and not divinely inspired- by the original apostles... to me, this sounds like the earliest apostles had to make decisions that ended up being traditions. Catholics don't disagree with the Bible...and if you bothered to look, you would find that our entire creed, mass, and catechism is centered around Scriptures. I'm so sorry that you feel this way.

[Cam42]

[quote name='pjrizzo' timestamp='1293925882' post='2195781']
[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Comparison of several Biblical Doctrines with Official Roman Catholic Dogma. [/size][/font]

[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]There are dozens more and I will continue to update. [/size][/font]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] The law of non-contradiction (to opposing ideas can not both be true at the same time) demonstrates that Roman Catholicism and Biblical Christianity can not both be true. In fact, if Biblical Christianity is proven true, then any other world religion or belief system must be false. Our eternal future (heaven or hell) is determined by what we believe.[/font][/size]

[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b]Source of Catholic Dogma[/b]: The following [i]De Fide[/i] statements comprise "Our Catholic Faith without which it is impossible to please God" (The Council of Trent, and Vatican II. These positive "articles of faith" have the function of fundamental principles which the faithful accepts without discussion as being certain and sure by virtue of the authority of God, Who is absolute truth (Council of the Vatican). They represent the mind of Christ.[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b]Source of Bible statements[/b]: the inerrant, infallible Word of God as clearly understood by any believer.[/font][/size]

[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font]



[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b]1[/b]. [b]Catholic[/b]-The canon of Scripture (Bible) was determined by the [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b] [/b] Catholic Church and must be interpreted by the [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b] [/b]Mageserium[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [b]Bible- [/b][/font][/size]

[list][list][*][font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Eternal- Ps 119:89; Is 40:8; Mark 13:31.[/size][/font][*][font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Divinely inspired- 2 Tim 3:16; 2 Pet 1:20; 1 Thess 2:13[/size][/font][*][font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Understood by even children- 2 Tim 3:15[/size][/font][*][font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Believed by Jesus, the apostles; discovered by early church- Matt 4:4; 5:17; John 10:35; Matt 26:34; Luke 24:44; [/size][/font][/list][/list][size="3"]·[/size] [size="3"]Jesus taught His disciples that they were His desig­nated witnesses and spokesmen (Luke 24:48; Acts 1:8; John 15:27). As His students, they learned His teachings so that they, in turn, might impart these principles to others. This was even true to the extent that those who believed and obeyed the disci­ples' words would actually be receiving Jesus Christ Himself (Matt. 10:14-15, 40; John 13:20). [/size]

[size="3"]·[/size] [size="3"]Jesus also promised His disciples the inspiration and guidance of the Holy Spirit. He would teach them addition­al matters (John 16:12-13), causing them to remember Jesus' words (John 14:26), and revealing to them the future (John 16:13b). Perhaps the key item is that, in all these matters, the Holy Spirit would lead the disciples to truth (John 16:13a). [/size]

[size="3"]·[/size] [size="3"]Jesus additionally promised that the Holy Spirit would assist His students in their teaching. This twofold promise paved the way for the inspiration of the New Testament. [/size]

[size="3"]·[/size] [size="3"]As the New Testament writers penned their words, they recognized that they were inspired. They claimed Jesus' twofold promise. The apostles' teachings were based on the foundation that Jesus provided (Eph. 2:20; 2 Pet. 3:2; Heb. 2:3-4). They believed their words were inspired (1 Peter l:12b). This is especially evident in Paul's epistles. They were con­vinced that the Holy Spirit empowered both their teaching and their writing. [/size]

[size="3"]·[/size] [size="3"]The New Testament writers recognized that Jesus' promise of inspiration also extended to other writers, as well. For instance, I Timothy 5:18 notes two citations, referring to both as Scripture. The first is obviously drawn from Deuteronomy 25:4. Although the second is similar to certain Old Testament texts, it is nowhere quoted. Actually, this saying is the same as that in Luke 10:7 (cf. Matt. 10:10), spoken by Jesus. Comparing a quote from the Law to one found in the teachings of Jesus, and calling them both Scripture, is certainly significant, and for more than one reason. It shows some conviction that the existing canon of inspired texts, consisting only of Old Testament writings, is not the end of the matter. After all, if any writings are considered to be inspired, the words of Jesus should be included! Moreover, Jesus' saying is even placed on a par with the Law itself. Further, New Testament texts by other authors were also recognized. [/size]

[size="3"]·[/size] [size="3"]Another example is found in 2 Peter 3:15-16, where Paul's epistles are placed alongside other Scripture, thereby being given the same status. Additionally, Jude 17-18 seems to cite 2 Peter 3:3 (or a common text) as the words of an apostle.[/size]

[size="3"]·[/size] [size="3"]Jesus continually refuted the Pharisees by saying, “have you not read?, He refuted the devil himself with Scripture stating three times, “it is written”.[/size]



[font="Century Gothic"] [/font]

[list][*][font="Century Gothic"][b][size="3"]Catholic[/size][/b]- The Catholic Church was founded by the God- [/font][/list][font="Century Gothic"] man, Jesus Christ.[/font]

[font="Century Gothic"][b][size="3"]Bible[/size][/b]- The one true church is that which is founded on Christ [/font]

[font="Century Gothic"][b] [/b] himself and is comprised by all who trust Jesus as their [/font]

[font="Century Gothic"] only Lord and Savior. Matt 16:18; Eph 2:20; [/font]

[font="Century Gothic"] 1 Cor 3 : 11 ,16; 1 Pet 2:5.[/font]



[list][*][font="Century Gothic"][b][size="3"]Catholic[/size][/b]- Christ appointed the Apostle Peter to be the first of [/font][/list][b] [/b][font="Century Gothic"] all the Apostles and to be the visible Head of the
whole Catholic Church, by appointing him [/font]

[font="Century Gothic"] and personally to the primacy of jurisdiction.[/font]

[font="Century Gothic"][b][size="3"]Bible[/size][/b]- “you are Peter (Petros) and upon this rock (petras, [/font]

[font="Century Gothic"] Peter’s confession of faith,) I will build my church” [/font]

[font="Century Gothic"] Matt 16:18[/font]

[size="3"]·[/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Immediately after talking of the foundation of the church, Jesus rebukes Peter saying, “get behind me satan, you are a scandal to me for you mind the things of men…”[/size][/font]

[size="3"]·[/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Peter denied Jesus with cursing and swearing. Matt 26:69-75[/size][/font]

[size="3"]·[/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Jesus rebuked Peter for his lack of faith. Matt 14:22-31[/size][/font]

[size="3"]·[/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Paul rebuked Peter for being hypocritical and disobeying the gospel. Gal 2:11[/size][/font]

[size="3"]·[/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Peter was married. Matt 8:14[/size][/font]

[size="3"]·[/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]Peter had no authority of other apostles. All received guidance directly from the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:1-4; Eph 3:3-5; John 16:13; 14:26.[/size][/font]

[size="3"]·[/size] [font="Century Gothic"][size="3"]James was the spokesman at the Jerusalem council (determining church practice) Acts 15.[/size][/font]

[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font]

[b][size="3"]4.[/size][/b][size="3"] [b]Catholic[/b]- Mary was conceived without the stain of original sin.
Mary is the Immaculate Conception.[/size]

[size="3"] [b] Bible[/b]- all have sinned and fall short…..Rom 3:23[/size]

[size="3"] No one seeks after good, no not one -Ps 14[/size]

[size="3"] Death spread to all because all sinned- Rom 5:13[/size]

[size="3"] All are conceived in sin- Ps 51:5[/size]

[size="3"] I (Mary) rejoice in God [b]my savior- [/b]Luke 1:47[/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [b]Catholic[/b]- Mary was assumed body and soul into Heaven.[/font] [/size]

[size="3"] [font="Century Gothic"][b]Bible[/b]- body goes to the ground, spirit goes to heaven or hell- [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Eccl 12:7; 1 Cor 15:36.[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [b]Catholic[/b]- Mary is Queen of Heaven, co-redemptrix with Jesus in v [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] salvation[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [b]Bible[/b]- Jesus alone is the Savior, redeemer of those who call on His [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b] [/b] Name- Acts 4:12. Mary was a humble woman used of God [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] she is now dead and can not be communicated with. [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Lev 19:21; Deut 18:10-13, Lev 20:27. [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] God is angered for idolizing the Queen of heaven- Jer 7:18- [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] 21 [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [/font][/size]

[list][*][size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b]Catholic[/b]- It is permissible to venerate images of saints; invoke [/font][/size][/list][size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] intercession and to pray for the dead in purgatory.[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [b]Bible[/b]- Let no one among you consult the dead. It is detestable- [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Deut 18:10-13. [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Only one mediator between God and man; Jesus- 1 Tim 2:5[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] man is destined to die once, then the judgment- Heb 9:27[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] A time is coming when all in their graves will rise, some to [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] eternal life, some to eternal punishment- Jn 5:28-29, Dan 12:2[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Separation of sheep and goats- Matt 25:32[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Great white throne judgment- 20:11[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [/font][/size]

[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font]

[list][*][size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b]Catholic[/b]- the sacraments of the new covenant are necessary for [/font][/size][/list][size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] the salvation of mankind.[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Baptism remits all punishments of sin.[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [b]Bible[/b]- we are saved by grace alone, not by works- Eph 2:8-10[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] If you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe…. [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] you will be saved- Rom 10:9.[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] All who call on the Name of the Lord will be saved-[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Rom 10:13[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Whosoever believes will not perish- Jn 3:16[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] The righteous shall live by faith- Hab 2:4; Rom 1:17[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] By works shall no man be justified- Gal 2:16; 3:14[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] By one sacrifice [b]He has perfected [/b]those who are being[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] sanctified. [/font][/size]

[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font]

[list][*][size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b]Catholic[/b]- the body and blood of Christ are truly, really, and [/font][/size][/list][size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Substantially present at the eucharist, during the [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] sacrifice of the mass.[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [b]Bible[/b]- Jesus took bread and wine as symbols. Do this in [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] remembrance of me- Luke 22:19; 1 Cor 11:24.[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] He is seated at the right hand of the father in heavenly [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] places- Luke 22:69; Eph 1:20; Col 3:1.[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Jesus is the Great High Priest who ever lives to make[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] intercession for us- Rom 8:34; Heb 7:25-29.[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Jesus offered once for all time, a sacrifice for sin- Heb 10:9[/font][/size]

[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font]

[list][*][size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b]Catholic[/b]- by the church’s absolution, sins are remitted.[/font][/size][/list][size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b]Bible[/b]- without the shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sins-[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Heb 9:22[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] The wages of sin is death- 6:23[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] The soul that sins it shall die- Ex 18:20[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] Christ himself, through faith in his blood, is the propitiation for [/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] our sins- Rom 3:25; 1 Jn 2:2; 4:10.[/font][/size]

[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font]

[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font]

[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font]

[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font]

[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font]

[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font]

[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font]

[list][*][size="3"][font="Century Gothic"][b]Catholic[/b]- rites and sacraments to be administered under the office [/font][/size][/list][size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] of the priest.[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [b] Bible[/b]- one mediator between God and man, Jesus- 1 Tim 2:5[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] We (believers) are a royal priesthood- 1 Pet 2:9[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] He has made us a kingdom of priests to God- Rev 1:6[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] We can come boldly to the throne of Grace…. Heb 4:16[/font][/size]

[size="3"][font="Century Gothic"] [/font][/size]

[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font]

[size="3"] [/size]

[size="3"] [/size]

[size="3"] [/size]

[size="3"] [/size]

[size="3"] [/size]

[size="3"] [/size]

[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font]

[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font]

[font="Century Gothic"][size="3"] [/size][/font]
[/quote]


Ok, let's break this down....FIRST, pjrizzo. I am VERY skeptical of your biblical translation. I found inconsistency in your first postings. It is inconsistent not only with the Latin, but also with Koine Greek. I speak Latin fluently, I also can read Koine Greek, Hebrew and a little Aramaic (although that is limited).

Next, your first statement about Bible....we don't disagree. However, please don't just cut and paste. Please type out your own thoughts. The formatting errors lead one to believe that they are not your thoughts....

Next, your statement about the founding of the Church. The Catholic idea of Church is wholly consistent with what you posted. Your scriptural posting is exactly how the Church views herself.

Next, Petrine ministry....your scriptural passages are irrelevant. They do not speak to the fact that Christ did give Peter the Keys to the Kingdom. The reason that Christ was rebuking Peter was because he was trying to deny the Petrine ministry. And Christ was saying that if he didn't accept it, then he could get behind him. As we know, Peter did accept and the rest is history. Yes, Peter denied Christ, but then again, Peter was sinful, as is every Pope that has followed him. And Peter did reconcile and come to the defense of the Lord, going even so far as to lay down his life as a martyr. In Acts 2:14, who was it that stood up and led the 11? As for Galatians, the rebuking was because Peter would not eat with Gentiles. It had nothing to do with his Primacy as leader of the new Church. As far as Acts 15 goes, take a good hard look at Acts 15:7. Who is it that rises up and speaks? And what is it that James does in Acts 15:13-14? He supports Simon Peter. He acquiesces.

Moving on to Marian dogma. As far as this is concerned, I will have you read, [url="http://www.ewtn.com/LIBRARY/PAPALDOC/P9INEFF.htm"]Ineffabilis Deus[/url], this is regarding the Immaculate Conception. I will have you read, [url="http://www.adoremus.org/MunificentissimusDeus.html"]Munificentissimus Deus[/url], this is regarding the Assumption. I won't take the time to quote what you can read.

The whole idea of Co-redemptrix is not dogma, nor is it doctrine. It is not binding upon the faithful. So, if you believe it to be so, you're incorrect.

Moving on to veneration of Saints and Praying for the dead....Praying for the dead is a long held custom, one which dates back as far as Christianity itself. I assume that your ecclesial communion has no funerals. As for veneration of saints, since they are with God, we can ask for their intercession. That is not praying to them nor is it contrary to anything that you post as biblical refutation. There is no conflict.

Sacraments....every single Sacrament was instituted by Christ to bring about Grace.
Baptism...Matthew 2:18
Confirmation...Acts 8:14-17
Eucharist...Matthew 26:26-28; Mark 14:22-24; Luke 19-20; 1 Cor. 11:23-25
Penance...John 20:22-23
Extreme Unction...Jas. 5:14-15
Holy Orders...Heb. 5:6; 7:11-25; Ps. 110:4
Matrimony...Matthew 19:6

That is enough about that. Sacraments are scriptural.

Real Presence....Again, your translation alludes you. These are not symbols. Please show me where it says symbols. They are outward signs. They are provable signs through his action and ratified in his blood. We don't argue that the earthly sacrifice was offered only once. We have never argued that. What we do at the Mass is a re-presentation of the Bloody Sacrifice in an unbloody manner. This was called for by Christ in the above passages. Christ compels us to do this.

Sacraments to be adminstered by priests....A royal priesthood is not a ministerial priesthood. You are confusing the two. Scripture is clear about Holy Orders. Look to Hebrews 5:1. It speaks of multiple priests. We know that this order is promulgated forever, by Hebrews 5:6. I would also have you look to Hebrews 7:23-25.

pjrizzo....Your arguments hold no water. I also am really starting to question you biblical knowledge. If you had any real knowledge, you would recognize these passages as being valid. As it stands, the problem is that YOU interpret the Sacred Scriptures as YOU see fit. There is no objective Truth beyond yourself. And YOU are a fallible human person. I would implore you to study harder and then open your heart to the objective Truth of the Catholic Church.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1293919798' post='2195762']
SOMEone's jealous...


[/quote]
umm no, i've gotten enough spam this week, thank you.

[Lil Red]

[u][b]pjrizzo:[/b][/u]

tl;dr

and learn to spell

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1293929878' post='2195807']
Next, your first statement about Bible....we don't disagree. However, please don't just cut and paste. Please type out your own thoughts. The formatting errors lead one to believe that they are not your thoughts....
[/quote]
no. way.

btw, welcome back.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1293930860' post='2195814']
no. way.

btw, welcome back.
[/quote]

I know right?

and



Thanks, it's good to be back...