HisChildForever Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1294597298' post='2198181'] Or is it the traditions that came from the scriptures? You can't know, can you, because were are not there! [/quote] Sacred Tradition does not, in any shape or form, contradict the Holy Scriptures.
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 [quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1294599328' post='2198193'] Sacred Tradition does not, in any shape or form, contradict the Holy Scriptures. [/quote] I never said it did. I'm just debating if it is wrong, as the OP suggests, to trust in scriptures alone. I think people should trust scripture more than traditions and and men on pulpits. Men on pulpits can lie, look at the god lottery preachers - give us your money and God will bless you with a million dollars! Scripture actually totally disagrees with that, and teaches that anybody who equates gain (wealth, power, prestige and anything else) with godliness is to be avoided at all costs! We are to totally remove ourselves from those people. Now, I can say that because that is what scripture says. I'm not saying Catholics are like that, in fact they are not - but still the document that is our 'constitution and our laws' is the Bible, and therefore it is far more important than what men say, or what traditions we follow. Books and ideas are more important than the men who represent them! What we believe today started as ideas in the apostles mind's as Jesus taught them!
HisChildForever Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1294599889' post='2198197'] I never said it did. I'm just debating if it is wrong, as the OP suggests, to trust in scriptures alone. I think people should trust scripture more than traditions and and men on pulpits. Men on pulpits can lie, look at the god lottery preachers - give us your money and God will bless you with a million dollars! Scripture actually totally disagrees with that, and teaches that anybody who equates gain (wealth, power, prestige and anything else) with godliness is to be avoided at all costs! We are to totally remove ourselves from those people. Now, I can say that because that is what scripture says. I'm not saying Catholics are like that, in fact they are not - but still the document that is our 'constitution and our laws' is the Bible, and therefore it is far more important than what men say, or what traditions we follow. Books and ideas are more important than the men who represent them! What we believe today started as ideas in the apostles mind's as Jesus taught them! [/quote] If you trust the Scriptures, then you trust the men of the Catholic Church who listened to the Holy Spirit and, with great wisdom, compiled the Scriptures into what we call "The Holy Bible". The Scriptures can only be interpreted in light of Catholic teaching, because Catholic teaching is protected by God Himself. If you choose not to listen to the Holy Catholic Church established by Jesus Christ Himself, you will be reading various versions, translations, and interpretations of the Bible as dictated by man, not God. So in truth one would not be trusting in Scriptures alone, but trusting in man alone.
KnightofChrist Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1294599889' post='2198197'] I never said it did. I'm just debating if it is wrong, as the OP suggests, to trust in scriptures alone. I think people should trust scripture more than traditions and and men on pulpits. Men on pulpits can lie, look at the god lottery preachers - give us your money and God will bless you with a million dollars! Scripture actually totally disagrees with that, and teaches that anybody who equates gain (wealth, power, prestige and anything else) with godliness is to be avoided at all costs! We are to totally remove ourselves from those people. Now, I can say that because that is what scripture says. I'm not saying Catholics are like that, in fact they are not - but still the document that is our 'constitution and our laws' is the Bible, and therefore it is far more important than what men say, or what traditions we follow. Books and ideas are more important than the men who represent them! What we believe today started as ideas in the apostles mind's as Jesus taught them! [/quote] Without Sacred Tradition and the Church to teach us Sacred Scripture, Sacred Scripture can be said or interpreted to mean what anyone wants. Yes the 'god lottery preachers' or those that teach the false doctrine of the prosperity gospel are wrong and teach heresy. But if one goes by Sacred Scripture alone without the Church to guide us each person will have their own interpretation. This is why there as so many protestant communities.
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) [quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1294600361' post='2198201'] If you trust the Scriptures, then you trust the men of the Catholic Church who listened to the Holy Spirit and, with great wisdom, compiled the Scriptures into what we call "The Holy Bible". The Scriptures can only be interpreted in light of Catholic teaching, because Catholic teaching is protected by God Himself. If you choose not to listen to the Holy Catholic Church established by Jesus Christ Himself, you will be reading various versions, translations, and interpretations of the Bible as dictated by man, not God. So in truth one would not be trusting in Scriptures alone, but trusting in man alone. [/quote] I disagree that it has to be interpreted in light of the teachings of men, and you are taking a huge leap of faith in saying that it is protected by God. Where's your proof that all teachings of the Catholic faith has been blanketed by God? [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1294600569' post='2198203'] Without Sacred Tradition and the Church to teach us Sacred Scripture, Sacred Scripture can be said or interpreted to mean what anyone wants. Yes the 'god lottery preachers' or those that teach the false doctrine of the prosperity gospel are wrong and teach heresy. But if one goes by Sacred Scripture alone without the Church to guide us each person will have their own interpretation. This is why there as so many protestant communities. [/quote] What I am saying there should be a hierachy of their spiritual priorities. Jesus first. Scripture second, traditions of men third. According to wise men who were also lead by the holy spirit, our law makers say that written and visual (like photographs and videos) proof is far greater evidence than someone's word, shouldn't scripture also be far greater evidence of what Jesus said than what some man says - and therefore we should trust what Jesus said in scripture more than what one person says Jesus told them? Edited January 9, 2011 by MarkKurallSchuenemann
KnightofChrist Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 St. Matthew recorded the truth that the Church is protected by God. "I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven."
KnightofChrist Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1294601615' post='2198206'] What I am saying there should be a hierachy of their spiritual priorities. Jesus first. Scripture second, traditions of men third. According to wise men who were also lead by the holy spirit, our law makers say that written and visual proof is far greater evidence than someone's word, shouldn't scripture also be far greater evidence of what Jesus said than what some man says - and therefore we should trust what Jesus said in scripture more than what one person says Jesus told them? [/quote] But much of the Bible was first passed down by word, part of Sacred Tradition. Only later was it written down. The Church is the Body of Christ. Christ is the Head, and Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture are like two lungs of the Body. Edited January 9, 2011 by KnightofChrist
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1294602017' post='2198209'] St. Matthew recorded the truth that the Church is protected by God. "I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose upon earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven." [/quote] I trust what Jesus says and I say that Jesus Christ is the son of the living God. That means the keys have also been given to me, and to every single other person who believes Jesus Christ is the son of the living God! And trust me when I say I am a rock. I would die for Christ, because Christ is so much more important than I am! Edited January 9, 2011 by MarkKurallSchuenemann
HisChildForever Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1294602261' post='2198212'] That means the keys have also been given to me, [/quote] The Holy Father joined Phatmass? News to me.
KnightofChrist Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1294602261' post='2198212'] I trust what Jesus says and I say that Jesus Christ is the son of the living God. That means the keys have also been given to me, and to every single other person who believes Jesus Christ is the son of the living God! And trust me when I say I am a rock. I would die for Christ, because Christ is so much more important than I am! [/quote] You are not Peter, you may have a strong faith and humbly sacrifice your life for Christ, but you are not Peter you are not the Pope. You have not been given the Keys to bind and loose. If you have then so have others. If you say X is true someone else can say X is false, but since both of you have the power to bind and loose, which is right? Only the devil is so contradictory.
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1294602195' post='2198211'] But much of the Bible was first passed down by word, part of Sacred Tradition. Only later was it written down. The Church is the Body of Christ. Christ is the Head, and Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture are like two lungs of the Body. [/quote] I agree the church is the Body of Christ - it's just our ideas of what constitutes that is different (and trust me, Arby's is right about this while we debate, different is GOOD!). God never said in scripture, and I am sure there isn't a catholic teaching saying the two lungs of the body is Scripture and Tradition, so that is your opinion. I'm glad you shared that opinion, but I still say that scripture allows us to discern what God's will for our lives is, and if what someone says is of God or not, and therefore it is far more important as a document than you would agree too. But it is just a living document, our constitution, if you may, saying what are rights and obligations are to God! Jesus comes first, Scripture comes second, and traditions of men come third.
HisChildForever Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1294601615' post='2198206'] I disagree that it has to be interpreted in light of the teachings of men, and you are taking a huge leap of faith in saying that it is protected by God. Where's your proof that all teachings of the Catholic faith has been blanketed by God? [/quote] The Scriptures are interpreted in light of the Holy Catholic Church, established by Jesus Christ Himself, as is recorded in the Holy Scriptures - my "proof" comes from the mouth of Jesus Christ Himself (see the Scriptural reference provided by Knight). Christ promised us that the "gates of Hell" would not prevail against the Holy Church.
HisChildForever Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1294602713' post='2198219'] I agree the church is the Body of Christ - it's just our ideas of what constitutes that is different (and trust me, Arby's is right about this while we debate, different is GOOD!). God never said in scripture, and I am sure there isn't a catholic teaching saying the two lungs of the body is Scripture and Tradition, so that is your opinion. I'm glad you shared that opinion, but I still say that scripture allows us to discern what God's will for our lives is, and if what someone says is of God or not, and therefore it is far more important as a document than you would agree too. But it is just a living document, our constitution, if you may, saying what are rights and obligations are to God! Jesus comes first, Scripture comes second, and traditions of men come third. [/quote] You have absolutely no authority on this matter. Everything you say or preach is completely subjective according to your interpretations and opinions.
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1294602703' post='2198218'] You are not Peter, you may have a strong faith and humbly sacrifice your life for Christ, but you are not Peter you are not the Pope. You have not been given the Keys to bind and loose. If you have then so have others. If you say X is true someone else can say X is false, but since both of you have the power to bind and loose, which is right? Only the devil is so contradictory. [/quote] Do we not both agree that Jesus is the son of the living God? Do we not both agree that Jesus died for our sins? Do we not both agree that Jesus is far better than either of us? Do we both not agree that humble service towards God is important for someone's life? if we both agree with those things, here is what Jesus says to you and the sarcastic person above you. [quote]Mark 9:38-40 And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part.[/quote] And [sup][/sup][quote]Luke 9:49-50 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.[/quote] Since this is repented twice in scripture, I think God was trying to tell us something. It doesn't matter which 'organization' we belong to, as long as we are doing the lord's work it's alright with him, and he see's no difference between us! The only person who see's a difference between us is, well you.
KnightofChrist Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1294602713' post='2198219'] I agree the church is the Body of Christ - it's just our ideas of what constitutes that is different (and trust me, Arby's is right about this while we debate, different is GOOD!). God never said in scripture, and I am sure there isn't a catholic teaching saying the two lungs of the body is Scripture and Tradition, so that is your opinion. I'm glad you shared that opinion, but I still say that scripture allows us to discern what God's will for our lives is, and if what someone says is of God or not, and therefore it is far more important as a document than you would agree too. But it is just a living document, our constitution, if you may, saying what are rights and obligations are to God! Jesus comes first, Scripture comes second, and traditions of men come third. [/quote] Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition complement each other, like to lungs in a body. Example the Scriptures teach the truth of the Holy Trinity, and Sacred Tradition defines the word and the teaching of the Holy Trinity. Living Document? I don't like that phrase Liberals use that phrase so they can make documents like the Constitution and the Bible say what ever the heck they want it to say.
Lil Red Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 [quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1294602681' post='2198216'] The Holy Father joined Phatmass? News to me. [/quote]
HisChildForever Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1294603083' post='2198225'] Since this is repented twice in scripture, I think God was trying to tell us something. It doesn't matter which 'organization' we belong to, as long as we are doing the lord's work it's alright with him, and he see's no difference between us! The only person who see's a difference between us is, well you. [/quote] Non-Catholic Christians are members of the Church and the body of Christ, albeit they have only partial Truth. Jesus Christ wants all His children to have the fullness of Truth, which can only be found in the Catholic Church. We are called to obedience.
MarkKurallSchuenemann Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1294603183' post='2198228'] [/quote] I'd throw up Foamy - Forem : Borem up as a response to this, but I know it would deleted immediately. Like I said, this forum is in desperate need for new ideas to be presented because you guys have become xenophobic in what is discussed here![quote name='HisChildForever' timestamp='1294603432' post='2198232'] Non-Catholic Christians are members of the Church and the body of Christ, albeit they have only partial Truth. Jesus Christ wants all His children to have the fullness of Truth, which can only be found in the Catholic Church. We are called to obedience. [/quote] I can respect and understand that. Edited January 9, 2011 by MarkKurallSchuenemann
HisChildForever Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 We are Catholic Christians. We love discussion, but do not tolerate heresy.
KnightofChrist Posted January 9, 2011 Posted January 9, 2011 [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1294603083' post='2198225'] Do we not both agree that Jesus is the son of the living God? Do we not both agree that Jesus died for our sins? Do we not both agree that Jesus is far better than either of us? Do we both not agree that humble service towards God is important for someone's life?[/quote] I do indeed agree with all of those truths. [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1294603083' post='2198225']if we both agree with those things, here is what Jesus says to you and the sarcastic person above you.[/quote] I agree with those passages as well, but that doesn't make you Peter, you still don't have the keys to bind and loose. [quote name='MarkKurallSchuenemann' timestamp='1294603083' post='2198225']Since this is repented twice in scripture, I think God was trying to tell us something. It doesn't matter which 'organization' we belong to, as long as we are doing the lord's work it's alright with him, and he see's no difference between us! The only person who see's a difference between us is, well you. [/quote] You don't answer may questions towards you. How can you have the keys to bind and loose and not some other Christian who disagrees with you on a subject and that not be contradictory? There is a difference between us, you teach a different gospel than Christ taught, He gave the Keys to bind and loose to Peter who held the office of Pope. Not to you.
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