First Vows Or Final Vows

[tarc]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1296183056' post='2205495']
I look at aspirancy, postulancy and novitiate as the courtship. Temporary vows each year as engagement and anniversary of engagement. And final vows as the wedding; you get a ring, you sign the papers that then get sent to the Vatican; you're in forever, under the sacrament.

I don't see temporary vows as AS important because you can still leave.
[/quote]

OT: Why are they sent to Rome?

[abrideofChrist]

Personally, I'd consider first vows to be a formal engagement. A very important engagement. Psychologically, it is difficult for someone to continue to have an open heart and mind in the discernment process if one makes temporary vows with the intention of them being lifelong. Continued discernment is critical during those 3-6 years of temporary vows both on the part of the sister/brother and on the community. This is one of the reasons that the Church has asked that liturgically, investiture and first vows have simple ceremonies, and the final profession have the prominence it deserves (hence the revised Rite for Professions). Too many people I know who have left religious life after temporary profession have had seriously guilty feelings about letting their "Spouse" down, and that is simply not the case. First vows makes you officially part of the community and inserts you into the consecrated state (temporarily) but it is still a testing period. Testing for you to see if it really is your vocation when you're living the real life and not the sheltered novitiate life, and testing for the community to see if you fit as a person with greater responsibility and freedoms from novitiate restrictions.

[Lilllabettt]

[quote name='abrideofChrist' timestamp='1296256311' post='2206098']
Personally, I'd consider first vows to be a formal engagement. A very important engagement. Psychologically, it is difficult for someone to continue to have an open heart and mind in the discernment process if one makes temporary vows with the intention of them being lifelong.
[/quote]


I'm pretty sure that for temporary vows to be valid, you have to make them with the intention of staying for life.

[Sarah147]

[quote name='tarc' timestamp='1296255856' post='2206091']
OT: Why are they sent to Rome?
[/quote]


That's what I was told. The Vatican keeps a record of solemn professed religious. To ever leave after final vows, you need to get the okay from the Vatican. That's what I was told. So the Vatican knows something's up when religious are leaving an order; they can tell. Hence the reason they are cracking down on orders now. The Pope is serious about this.

Edited January 28, 2011 by JoyfulLife

[abrideofChrist]

If you are making temporary vows, you might *wish* that they are for life, but in actuality, you make them with the intention to keep them for the duration promised (a period of usually 1-3 years). The vow formula for first profession is different than final because it has a time limit on it. So for example, I have at my elbow a Vatican approved temporary vow formula one community uses that reads "I, Sister N of N, make my profession of temporary vows for three years and I promise......". The intention is not and should not be staying for life as it is still a period of discernment. The sister may wish to stay for life, but she is vowing to follow the evangelical counsels according to the community's statutes for a specific period of time. This is to protect her and the community as they discern. Temporary vows are just that. Temporary. They are there to experience the life in a more committed (but not finally committed way). The history of religious vows is fascinating, and one part of it is why the concept of temporary vows arose, and why the Vatican asks for long periods of formation today.

edited to add the solemn profession formula: "I Sister N of N, make my solemn profession and I promise.... until death."


[quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1296257041' post='2206111']
I'm pretty sure that for temporary vows to be valid, you have to make them with the intention of staying for life.
[/quote]

Edited January 29, 2011 by abrideofChrist

[tarc]

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1296257745' post='2206124']
That's what I was told. The Vatican keeps a record of solemn professed religious. To ever leave after final vows, you need to get the okay from the Vatican. That's what I was told. So the Vatican knows something's up when religious are leaving an order; they can tell. Hence the reason they are cracking down on orders now. The Pope is serious about this.
[/quote]

Thanks.

[abrideofChrist]

This is correct for Pontifical Right communities in that the communities are required to keep the Vatican updated as to the names of their finally professed members and in that the Pope (or Congregation for the Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life) is alone qualified to dispense from their vows. For those members of communities of Diocesan Right, the vows are monitored by the Diocesan Bishop and he's the one who dispenses from final vows. The Vatican does keep tab on diocesan right vocations too, and the bishops report numbers on their reports to Rome, but it is the bishop who does the dispensations.

[quote name='JoyfulLife' timestamp='1296257745' post='2206124']
That's what I was told. The Vatican keeps a record of solemn professed religious. To ever leave after final vows, you need to get the okay from the Vatican. That's what I was told. So the Vatican knows something's up when religious are leaving an order; they can tell. Hence the reason they are cracking down on orders now. The Pope is serious about this.
[/quote]

[Sister Marie]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1296257041' post='2206111']
I'm pretty sure that for temporary vows to be valid, you have to make them with the intention of staying for life.
[/quote]

[font="Arial"][size="2"]I don't think validity is the term I would use because there are four points in canon law that are outlined as making a profession invalid. But, I definitely agree with you that first vows are meant to be made with the intention of making them perpetually. I still can't agree with the idea of it being an engagement because with the profession of first vows a sister is charged with the responsibilities and effects of a spousal relationship with Christ. If we look to the engagement period in a spousal image; the couple is not living together, has not put two lives into one, and has no legal or canonical responsibility to their commitment. That is not the case for a sister in temporary vows. At my first vows, when the priest put my ring on my finger he said, "Sister, receive this ring for you are [b]betrothed[/b] to the Eternal King." I think that is a better word than engaged.[/size][/font]
[font="Arial"][size="2"]
[/size][/font]
[font="Arial"][/font][font="Arial"][size="2"]In the time of Jesus, betrothal was much more than an engagement and required a divorce to be dissolved even though it was the first step in marriage.
[/size][/font]
[font="Arial"][size="2"]
[/size][/font]
[font="Arial"][size="2"]The sister in temporary vows is living the life of the sister in final vows. She has the same obligations as such. [/size][/font][font=Arial][size=2]A sister in temporary vows must be released from her vows by her superior if she wishes to leave before they expire. [/size][/font][font=Arial][size=2]However, the novice may leave at any time. At reception to the novitiate we are told that we will be tested. All the language about the novitiate states that it is the time for testing the vocation of the novice. [/size][/font]
[font=Arial][size=2]
[/size][/font]
[font=Arial][size=2]Canon Law says about temporary profession, "By religious profession, members assume the observance of the three evangelical counsels by [b]public vow[/b], are [b]consecrated to God through the ministry of the Church[/b], and are[b] incorporated into the institute[/b] with the rights and duties defined by law (Canon 654, my bold)." Public vows, consecration and incorporation all raise the level of commitment above an "engagement" period. [/size][/font][font=Arial][size=2]Again though, final vows are the most important and the ceremonies should reflect that revision of the rite of profession. [/size][/font]
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[/size][/font]
[font=Arial][size=2]I thought I would be sick the day of my profession (in a good way [/size][/font][img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/dance.gif[/img][font=Arial][size=2]) because it made me so nervous to think of what a huge commitment I was making. It wasn't the same as receiving the habit and the rule to learn and be tested. I was saying publicly that I promised to live chastity, poverty, and obedience in my religious institute. I didn't say that I would try it out, or that I would do my best and see what happened, or that at some point in the future I would live the vows. I vowed to do it from that moment on. And two days later I moved to my new mission and began my apostolate and my life in community as a participating member. It was great and the grace that comes from that public consecration is necessary to live the life. Religious life is hard and we need the grace that comes with making vows - the vows are what you look to when there is a difficulty, a joy, a hardship, a doubt. [/size][/font]
[font=Arial][size=2]
[/size][/font]
[font=Arial][size=2]I think this is a great topic because there is no clear answer but I like thinking about things like this. The analogy doesn't quite work here and I think it is quite interesting and I'm enjoying reading everyone's opinions. [/size][/font]

[Sarah147]

It's scary. Marriage or final vows. But thankfully, it can be like 8 years in an order before final vows, so by then, you should know for sure it it's the one and you are indeed called.

[abrideofChrist]

I congratulate you upon having made your vows. Nevertheless, I would beg to differ in opinion on the subject of temporary profession. The sister in temporary vows does not have the same obligations as those in final vows. Some differences include voting privileges, etc. Other differences can be significant such as in owning property in first vows vs. not owning property in solemn vows. Second, they are not meant to be made with the intention of making them perpetually. The Church understands vows to be what is literally said and in temporary vows, they are intended to be temporary with a view of testing one's vocation. They are meant to be made with the *hope* of making them perpetually and with the pledge to live the life as fully as one can.... A woman isn't sure she's called to religious life until she makes her final profession, anymore than a person who's gone through seminary is sure until he's ordained. Temporary profession is there to test the vocation of the brother/sister. It is not a lifelong commitment and therefore not a real espousal to Christ, which needs to be permanent/lifelong. More significant than an engagement? Not really. An engagement is a promise of marriage. Temporary vows are a promise to observe the evangelical counsels according to a certain way of life for a certain period of time with a view towards possibly making it a lifetime commitment. Once those temporary vows expire, one is perfectly free to depart from the community or be kicked out.

[quote name='Sister Marie' timestamp='1296262449' post='2206164']
[font="Arial"][size="2"]I don't think validity is the term I would use because there are four points in canon law that are outlined as making a profession invalid. But, I definitely agree with you that first vows are meant to be made with the intention of making them perpetually. I still can't agree with the idea of it being an engagement because with the profession of first vows a sister is charged with the responsibilities and effects of a spousal relationship with Christ. If we look to the engagement period in a spousal image; the couple is not living together, has not put two lives into one, and has no legal or canonical responsibility to their commitment. That is not the case for a sister in temporary vows. At my first vows, when the priest put my ring on my finger he said, "Sister, receive this ring for you are [b]betrothed[/b] to the Eternal King." I think that is a better word than engaged.[/size][/font]

[font="Arial"][size="2"]The sister in temporary vows is living the life of the sister in final vows. She has the same obligations as such. [/size][/font][font="Arial"][size="2"]A sister in temporary vows must be released from her vows by her superior if she wishes to leave before they expire. [/size][/font][font="Arial"][size="2"]However, the novice may leave at any time. At reception to the novitiate we are told that we will be tested. All the language about the novitiate states that it is the time for testing the vocation of the novice. [/size][/font]
[font="Arial"] [/font]
[font="Arial"][size="2"]Canon Law says about temporary profession, "By religious profession, members assume the observance of the three evangelical counsels by [b]public vow[/b], are [b]consecrated to God through the ministry of the Church[/b], and are[b] incorporated into the institute[/b] with the rights and duties defined by law (Canon 654, my bold)." Public vows, consecration and incorporation all raise the level of commitment above an "engagement" period. [/size][/font][font="Arial"][size="2"]Again though, final vows are the most important and the ceremonies should reflect that revision of the rite of profession. [/size][/font]

[/quote]

[TeresaBenedicta]

I don't think there's really a "right" or "wrong" answer here-- a lot depends on how each community views the vows and how each individual sister views the vows.

From my own understanding, and how, God-willing, I will approach the vows is that my first vows will be my espousal to Christ. And I will intend them for life. The allotted duration of the vows, I think, serve as that "in case of special circumstances," and provides an easy way of dispensing of the vows (since they're [i]not[/i] final).

In my mind, both the candidate and the community ought to be fairly certain of the 'fit' for one to continue on to temporary vows. If there is not a pretty darn clear conviction on both sides, then the candidate ought to either extend the novitiate or leave the community, depending on the situation. But progressing to vows, even temporary ones, ought to be done with a fair amount of certainty. There is still discernment within temporary vows, but not in the same way as there is discernment prior. The discernment within temporary vows, in my understanding, is more like reacting to major issues that might come up. [i]Sometimes[/i] a candidate might progress to temporary vows without a great deal of certainty, asking for the graces of vows to provide it, but I think this is a rarer case.

At any rate... religious vows are in some ways dissimilar to marriage vows because one [i]can[/i] be dispensed from them. After final vows, it requires (I believe) the Holy Father's dispensation, as well as that of the Order. I [i]don't[/i] believe there are certain condition to be met for the dispensation, as is required for an annulment. Meaning, I think, that one can technically be dispensed from vows even if they were taken with full knowledge and consent. Marriage vows are indissoluble, if they were really taken.

So I guess I'd say that in normal situations, the first vows are intended for life by the candidate and are a great joy and witness-- their espousal to Christ. The fact these vows are renewed a few times prior to final vows allows for an easier dispensation process should something go wrong. Renewing the vows or professing final vows might seem akin to an older couple "renewing" their marriage vows (which is not really renewing, since, you know...)

Like I said, I don't think there's a right or wrong answer to this question. But this is how I view it.

[Sister Marie]

[quote name='abrideofChrist' timestamp='1296266164' post='2206184']
I congratulate you upon having made your vows. Nevertheless, I would beg to differ in opinion on the subject of temporary profession. The sister in temporary vows does not have the same obligations as those in final vows. Some differences include voting privileges, etc. Other differences can be significant such as in owning property in first vows vs. not owning property in solemn vows. Second, they are not meant to be made with the intention of making them perpetually. The Church understands vows to be what is literally said and in temporary vows, they are intended to be temporary with a view of testing one's vocation. They are meant to be made with the *hope* of making them perpetually and with the pledge to live the life as fully as one can.... A woman isn't sure she's called to religious life until she makes her final profession, anymore than a person who's gone through seminary is sure until he's ordained. Temporary profession is there to test the vocation of the brother/sister. It is not a lifelong commitment and therefore not a real espousal to Christ, which needs to be permanent/lifelong. More significant than an engagement? Not really. An engagement is a promise of marriage. Temporary vows are a promise to observe the evangelical counsels according to a certain way of life for a certain period of time with a view towards possibly making it a lifetime commitment. Once those temporary vows expire, one is perfectly free to depart from the community or be kicked out.


[/quote]

Abrideofchrist, I'm glad to meet you. I hope you don't find this offensive but because of your insistent difference in opinion I am wondering, are you a religious? I'm not saying that to discount your opinion, but because I think to have such a strong opinion it would seem that you have some experience of religious life.

As far as voting, you are certainly correct that that [b]privilege[/b] is one that is not entirely mine - however, I did not talk about privileges but obligations which are different. The church knows in her wisdom that as a young sister I do not have the whole picture that my elders have... that makes my profession of vows no less valid. Further, there can be no comparing seminary formation and religious life. Priesthood is a sacrament, religious life is not. Vows are different than ordination. The two are too different to offer a true comparison.


If you aren't a religious, I must say that I do find it a little bit bold to be told that my vows are no more significant than an engagement, which can be easily broken. I hope that doesn't come across as accusatory or harsh because it is not meant in that spirit but in a spirit of a loving challenge to your viewpoint, especially as it seems to view my profession of vows as less than what they are. Maybe I am being defensive, and I certainly apologize if I am; but I also feel a responsibility to proclaim what I know to be true from my formation and studies. Opinion aside, I am a consecrated religious. There can be no opinion about that because the Church clearly says that we are consecrated at our profession.

The Rite likens temporary profession less to the analogy of marriage and more to the liturgical year. It sees temporary profession as an Advent time of restrained joyful expectation of the perpetual commitment to come. That makes vows no less valid or serious but adds a different dimension to the nature of temporary profession that I think we could both agree upon. We wait in expectation for that which is to come. In the Advent season we know that the Savior is coming; in temporary profession we intend for that perpetual commitment to happen.

I hope you see my commentary for what it is, a loving explanation of my own educated and prayerful reflections on the consecration I have already experienced and not a disagreement.

Lovingly and prayerfully,
Sister Marie

[abrideofChrist]

Dear Sr. Marie,

Yes, I grant that you have made vows, and again offer my congratulations. Perhaps I appear insistent in that I have seen far too many people who have legitimately left or asked to leave religious life after first vows to be crushed because they had forgotten that temporary vows are for a specified period of time and are a space for continued discernment as to whether final profession is appropriate. I think perhaps this is one of the reasons that in many of the websites on religious that I have seen, they emphasize that first vows are still a discernment time... it is a time of deepening appreciation and understanding of religious life so that a person has better knowledge as to whether to renew temporary vows or to enter final vows or to leave or is asked to leave. A temporary vow does not make one strictly speaking a bride of Christ, as even St. Thomas Aquinas whose feast it is speaks about the vow having to be lifelong... Again, it is merely my concern that people realize that even in temporary vows you continue to evaluate and discern your vocation just as the leadership in your community are evaluating you and your vocation and that it's not just a "jump the hoops" or a "mere formality" stage. I hope I make myself clear in a very friendly way.

Again, it is because many people do not understand first vows or renewable vows to be a time of discernment that I made these comments. Here's what an archdiocese says about first vows:

3. [b]Novitiate:[/b] This one-to-two year period is a time of intense study and prayer, giving you the time to learn more about yourself, the community, and your relationship with God. This stage also begins your official welcoming into the community.

4. [b]Temporary Vows:[/b] At this point of your discernment, you make a vow of poverty, celibacy, and obedience for a period of one to three years. This is a time to enter more deeply into the religious life as a vowed religious, while continuing your discernment of accepting final vows. The period of temporary vows can last up to nine years.

Concerning vows being broken, I did not mean that in the same way an engagement is broken. A temporary vow is taken for a time. One may freely leave after that time has elapsed.

With respect to voting being a privilege, that is certainly true in one sense. In another it is the right of final professed because they are in it for life and they have the right to have their say. This is part and parcel of the vocation to communal life.

ABC


[quote name='Sister Marie' timestamp='1296269548' post='2206200']
Abrideofchrist, I'm glad to meet you. I hope you don't find this offensive but because of your insistent difference in opinion I am wondering, are you a religious? I'm not saying that to discount your opinion, but because I think to have such a strong opinion it would seem that you have some experience of religious life.

As far as voting, you are certainly correct that that [b]privilege[/b] is one that is not entirely mine - however, I did not talk about privileges but obligations which are different. The church knows in her wisdom that as a young sister I do not have the whole picture that my elders have... that makes my profession of vows no less valid. Further, there can be no comparing seminary formation and religious life. Priesthood is a sacrament, religious life is not. Vows are different than ordination. The two are too different to offer a true comparison.


If you aren't a religious, I must say that I do find it a little bit bold to be told that my vows are no more significant than an engagement, which can be easily broken. I hope that doesn't come across as accusatory or harsh because it is not meant in that spirit but in a spirit of a loving challenge to your viewpoint, especially as it seems to view my profession of vows as less than what they are. Maybe I am being defensive, and I certainly apologize if I am; but I also feel a responsibility to proclaim what I know to be true from my formation and studies. Opinion aside, I am a consecrated religious. There can be no opinion about that because the Church clearly says that we are consecrated at our profession.

The Rite likens temporary profession less to the analogy of marriage and more to the liturgical year. It sees temporary profession as an Advent time of restrained joyful expectation of the perpetual commitment to come. That makes vows no less valid or serious but adds a different dimension to the nature of temporary profession that I think we could both agree upon. We wait in expectation for that which is to come. In the Advent season we know that the Savior is coming; in temporary profession we intend for that perpetual commitment to happen.

I hope you see my commentary for what it is, a loving explanation of my own educated and prayerful reflections on the consecration I have already experienced and not a disagreement.

Lovingly and prayerfully,
Sister Marie
[/quote]

Edited January 29, 2011 by abrideofChrist

[MissScripture]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1296184363' post='2205510']
...think of it, like, receiving your First Holy Communion...that is not the final Communion, but it is life-changing...because you are receiving the Lord for the very first time...


think of the vows in the same way...ur daughter will be wed to Christ...at least for two years...but nonetheless, she becomes His Bride...the rest of the vows become a "renewal" of Vows...so, I probably would think the very first vows are the most special...
[/quote]
My mom absolutely loved this. She actually has this post saved in a word document.

[quote name='Santa Cruz' timestamp='1296185551' post='2205524']
Congrats jruss on your daughter's first profession. What a blessing!

It is my understanding that Solemn Profession is the big celebration as she is forever a bride of Christ.[b] However, I would think even the Clothing, when she received her wedding gown could have been the most special day. [/b] I liken the journey into religious life, from discernment into Solemn Profession, to the Jewish tradition of espousal happening before the husband and wife come together. My spiritual director too has told me that even now, as a layperson discerning religious life, Christ can be my Spouse. The Church thereby recognizes what has already taken place upon Solemn Profession. For instance, Mary and Joseph were espoused (legally husband and wife) before they came together in marriage as was Jewish custom. So why not rejoice in her First Profession as the day of marriage? And her Solemn Profession could be even bigger, with 2 busloads. If the community she is part of is okay with it and she welcomes the party, then why not? Your daughter must be speaking from what is going on internally between herself and our Lord.

I speak from no authority though. Just a clueless discerner.
[/quote]
Just as an FYI, at least in the Nashville Dominican's case, the families are not there when the novices recieve their habits and names.

[quote name='Chiquitunga' timestamp='1296192902' post='2205595']
On another note, something I recently read in the old OCD Ceremonial I have is that the anniversary of one's vows is counted from the First Profession .. something I didn't realize before.
[/quote]
I'm PRETTY sure that in the case of the Nashville Dominicans it's counted from when they become novices, after being postulants for a year. I was disappointed by this, because I was thinking my sister and I would get to celebrate our 25th and 50th anniversaries together, but we'll be a year off. (Mine being married, hers being a sister)

[quote name='Sister Marie' timestamp='1296262449' post='2206164']
[font="Arial"][size="2"]I don't think validity is the term I would use because there are four points in canon law that are outlined as making a profession invalid. But, I definitely agree with you that first vows are meant to be made with the intention of making them perpetually. I still can't agree with the idea of it being an engagement because with the profession of first vows a sister is charged with the responsibilities and effects of a spousal relationship with Christ. If we look to the engagement period in a spousal image; the couple is not living together, has not put two lives into one, and has no legal or canonical responsibility to their commitment. That is not the case for a sister in temporary vows. At my first vows, when the priest put my ring on my finger he said, "Sister, receive this ring for you are [b]betrothed[/b] to the Eternal King." I think that is a better word than engaged.[/size][/font]
[font="Arial"][size="2"]
[/size][/font]
[font="Arial"][/font][font="Arial"][size="2"]In the time of Jesus, betrothal was much more than an engagement and required a divorce to be dissolved even though it was the first step in marriage.
[/size][/font]
[font="Arial"][size="2"]
[/size][/font]
[font="Arial"][size="2"]The sister in temporary vows is living the life of the sister in final vows. She has the same obligations as such. [/size][/font][font=Arial][size=2]A sister in temporary vows must be released from her vows by her superior if she wishes to leave before they expire. [/size][/font][font=Arial][size=2]However, the novice may leave at any time. At reception to the novitiate we are told that we will be tested. All the language about the novitiate states that it is the time for testing the vocation of the novice. [/size][/font]
[font=Arial][size=2]
[/size][/font]
[font=Arial][size=2]Canon Law says about temporary profession, "By religious profession, members assume the observance of the three evangelical counsels by [b]public vow[/b], are [b]consecrated to God through the ministry of the Church[/b], and are[b] incorporated into the institute[/b] with the rights and duties defined by law (Canon 654, my bold)." Public vows, consecration and incorporation all raise the level of commitment above an "engagement" period. [/size][/font][font=Arial][size=2]Again though, final vows are the most important and the ceremonies should reflect that revision of the rite of profession. [/size][/font]
[font=Arial][size=2]
[/size][/font]
[font=Arial][size=2]I thought I would be sick the day of my profession (in a good way [/size][/font][img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/dance.gif[/img][font=Arial][size=2]) because it made me so nervous to think of what a huge commitment I was making. It wasn't the same as receiving the habit and the rule to learn and be tested. I was saying publicly that I promised to live chastity, poverty, and obedience in my religious institute. I didn't say that I would try it out, or that I would do my best and see what happened, or that at some point in the future I would live the vows. I vowed to do it from that moment on. And two days later I moved to my new mission and began my apostolate and my life in community as a participating member. It was great and the grace that comes from that public consecration is necessary to live the life. Religious life is hard and we need the grace that comes with making vows - the vows are what you look to when there is a difficulty, a joy, a hardship, a doubt. [/size][/font]
[font=Arial][size=2]
[/size][/font]
[font=Arial][size=2]I think this is a great topic because there is no clear answer but I like thinking about things like this. The analogy doesn't quite work here and I think it is quite interesting and I'm enjoying reading everyone's opinions. [/size][/font]
[/quote]
My mother also liked the image of a betrothal, and I, too, think it really makes the most sense.

[quote name='Sister Marie' timestamp='1296269548' post='2206200']
Abrideofchrist, I'm glad to meet you. I hope you don't find this offensive but because of your insistent difference in opinion I am wondering, are you a religious? I'm not saying that to discount your opinion, but because I think to have such a strong opinion it would seem that you have some experience of religious life.

As far as voting, you are certainly correct that that [b]privilege[/b] is one that is not entirely mine - however, I did not talk about privileges but obligations which are different. The church knows in her wisdom that as a young sister I do not have the whole picture that my elders have... that makes my profession of vows no less valid. Further, there can be no comparing seminary formation and religious life. Priesthood is a sacrament, religious life is not. Vows are different than ordination. The two are too different to offer a true comparison.


If you aren't a religious, I must say that I do find it a little bit bold to be told that my vows are no more significant than an engagement, which can be easily broken. I hope that doesn't come across as accusatory or harsh because it is not meant in that spirit but in a spirit of a loving challenge to your viewpoint, especially as it seems to view my profession of vows as less than what they are. Maybe I am being defensive, and I certainly apologize if I am; but I also feel a responsibility to proclaim what I know to be true from my formation and studies. Opinion aside, I am a consecrated religious. There can be no opinion about that because the Church clearly says that we are consecrated at our profession.

The Rite likens temporary profession less to the analogy of marriage and more to the liturgical year. It sees temporary profession as an Advent time of restrained joyful expectation of the perpetual commitment to come. That makes vows no less valid or serious but adds a different dimension to the nature of temporary profession that I think we could both agree upon. We wait in expectation for that which is to come. In the Advent season we know that the Savior is coming; in temporary profession we intend for that perpetual commitment to happen.

I hope you see my commentary for what it is, a loving explanation of my own educated and prayerful reflections on the consecration I have already experienced and not a disagreement.

Lovingly and prayerfully,
Sister Marie
[/quote]
Having been engaged (and now married), I don't know that I would say that an engagement could be "easily" broken, because there was nothing easy about it when we almost fell apart, but I agree with your point that there were no formal promises in the same way as vows in a religious order.

[Lilllabettt]

Sr. Marie, you are right, "valid" is my own clumsy word. When I was in formation, one of my superiors explained it to me in so many words, that we should make first vows with the intention that we would stay always. In fact that was one of the questions in the "interview" type thing that happens before vows are made ??? I am hazy on that, I never made it that far!

I have known a few women who left their communities because they were "not ready" for first profession ... i.e., they explained to me that because they could not make first profession with the intention of staying for life, they did not make them. ( Happily, two of them were discerned further and were able to return to their communities and make first profession ... including someone who used to post here!

[MarisStella]

Just as an FYI, at least in the Nashville Dominican's case, the families are not there when the novices recieve their habits and names.


-----------------------------------
WHAT. I WAS NOT AWARE OF THIS!! [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/sad2.gif[/img]
I was so excited!!

Edited January 29, 2011 by MarisStella

[Sister Marie]

[quote name='abrideofChrist' timestamp='1296270200' post='2206206']
Dear Sr. Marie,

Yes, I grant that you have made vows, and again offer my congratulations. Perhaps I appear insistent in that I have seen far too many people who have legitimately left or asked to leave religious life after first vows to be crushed because they had forgotten that temporary vows are for a specified period of time and are a space for continued discernment as to whether final profession is appropriate. I think perhaps this is one of the reasons that in many of the websites on religious that I have seen, they emphasize that first vows are still a discernment time... it is a time of deepening appreciation and understanding of religious life so that a person has better knowledge as to whether to renew temporary vows or to enter final vows or to leave or is asked to leave. A temporary vow does not make one strictly speaking a bride of Christ, as even St. Thomas Aquinas whose feast it is speaks about the vow having to be lifelong... Again, it is merely my concern that people realize that even in temporary vows you continue to evaluate and discern your vocation just as the leadership in your community are evaluating you and your vocation and that it's not just a "jump the hoops" or a "mere formality" stage. I hope I make myself clear in a very friendly way.

ABC



[/quote]

Thank you for your gracious response ABC (much easier to write [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/saint.gif[/img]). I do understand what you are saying now a little better. Your concern for those who have left in temporary profession is a compassionate and loving concern. You are right that there is still time and that each person is still being evaluated. My only concern was that vows were being relegated to a simple formality as formation goes that really meant no commitment was made (I guess we were both wanting to find the heart of it and not the formality of it!). I take my vows quite seriously and I intended with my whole heart at my profession for them to be continually renewed in words and in action throughout my life. In most communities I know if a person leaves in temporary profession it is a hard and sad blow to the community in comparison to the leaving of a novice or postulant because a formal commitment and consecration has been made. The intention of the vows one makes should be that they will last (otherwise, why make them?); however, I agree with you that one should not feel that they have let Him down for realizing that they are not where He wants them to be. I say this knowing many women who have left in temporary profession as well.

I also did not mean that it would be easy for anyone engaged to break that engagement, but that there were not legal or canonical ramifications in a broken engagement of that type as there are in temporary profession in religious life. I hope that clarification of what I meant made sense!

I must say that my comment was motivated by a hurt that my consecration might not have been seen as valid compared with the consecration of someone in final vows and I apologize if I came across as more defensive than conversational. First and final vows are different, and I agree that final vows are the most important but I value very deeply my identity as a consecrated woman and as a spouse of Christ because I did make vows to Him.

God bless,
Sister Marie

[MissScripture]

[quote name='MarisStella' timestamp='1296271041' post='2206211']
Just as an FYI, at least in the Nashville Dominican's case, the families are not there when the novices recieve their habits and names.

WHAT. I WAS NOT AWARE OF THIS!! [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/sad2.gif[/img]
I was so excited!!
[/quote]
That's what my sister told me when we visited in December. She said that they get the habits and have them for about a month before the 1st visit day so that they can get used to them. I also know for the first few days, they have to have someone help them get dressed in the morning.

[Sister Marie]

[quote name='Lilllabettt' timestamp='1296270965' post='2206210']
Sr. Marie, you are right, "valid" is my own clumsy word. When I was in formation, one of my superiors explained it to me in so many words, that we should make first vows with the intention that we would stay always. In fact that was one of the questions in the "interview" type thing that happens before vows are made ??? I am hazy on that, I never made it that far!

I have known a few women who left their communities because they were "not ready" for first profession ... i.e., they explained to me that because they could not make first profession with the intention of staying for life, they did not make them. ( Happily, two of them were discerned further and were able to return to their communities and make first profession ... including someone who used to post here!
[/quote]

It is a good word! I was just clarifying that it not to be confused with the formal reasons given in canon law. Those women are really women of integrity to be able to realize they were not able to make vows without the right disposition. It must have been very difficult for them but what a wise and prayerful decision. Canon law makes it possible to prolong the time of novitiate for a reason like that but not all communities give that option. A very good sister friend of mine left right before profession and came back when she was ready as well. It was exactly what God had planned for her!

The interview questions do always include asking about that intention in my community as well! It made me laugh when I saw you had that experience as well! Some things are just the same across nundom!

[reminiscere]

From talking to different male and female religious in very different communities - orders, congregations, pontifical right/diocesan right/public associations, they all consider themselves - even though in final vows - to be "professed" from the day of their first profession, the profession date listed on the gravestone - if applicable - is that of the day of first profession, when asked how long they have been professed, they say they have been professed for as many years since their first profession. Yes, solemn/perpetual is extremely important, the final signs such as the black veil/crown or a ring/cross whatever the community might use at the time, but it is only a final solidification of what has already been promised to God.

Also, one says in first/temporary profession: "I vow for one year/three years," etc. Strictly speaking an intention to stay for your whole life isn't canonically necessary for validity - there is always the possibility of leaving/being asked to leave during that time and like it or not, and whatever the odds of that happening, that intention however praiseworthy and probably true isn't always the case and so isn't a requirement.