American People.

[4588686]

[quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1298827186' post='2216135']
Ed, if I had a dime for everytime I was told to go live somewhere else to experiance the 'hardship' of another country, I would have enough to pay for the paper work [b][i]to [/i][/b]immigrate to another country. I have lived in this country all my life, so I can't imagine what it would be like. I don't think any of us can, unless we [i][b]have[/b][/i] lived there. So, I find this argument slanted and in nothing else a little ad homien as well. Another thing is that good ol America despite having all this 'freedom' we don't spread it, instead we smell of elderberries up to places like China because they pick up our debt. [/QUOTE]

America spreads quite a bit of freedom. We led the charge to stop the slaughter in Bosnia and are still helping the Bosnia government advance reform. We recognized Kosovo. We pushed reform in Taiwan, South Korea, the Philippines, and Egypt.

Yep. Egypt. The primary credit for the revolution in Egypt goes to the Egyptians who had the mettle to stand up to Mubarak's thugs. The breathing space that allowed the to be successful was in large part provided by an Egyptian army that was dependent on American aid and much of whose Officer Corps was trained by the American Army.

Much of what America does to promote freedom isn't flashy. You see it when you dive into the details. When we made aid grants to Bosnia contingent on the government ethnically reintegrating their army. Facilitating deals between the Bosnia government and the EU special representative. It's not flashy and it's not sexy but America does a lot to structurally adjust oppressive regimes. For example the greater freedom of speech present in Egypt when we got Mubarak to allow some criticism in the newspapers. If we just break off all contact with such nations then you get Iran. It's better to have leverage that we can use at strategically apt times to give democratic forces the space they need to throw the thugs out.


[QUOTE]Yeah, we are spoiled as Americans. Yet, we are as happy as clams to keep doing what we are doing aren't we? Even Catholics are happy to carry on spending in the consumer 'I want' mentality of America. (I am at fault in this as well) So, what is your point? Of course there are and more than likely will be starving children in Africa and China and wherever else, because we feel a need to build more tanks then feed 1,000 villages with that spending. I am not willing to just sit and twiddle my thumbs and say America is just so fantastic! I am grateful that I do have the rights that I do have, but then they are intrinsic to all human persons anyway, the "State" doesn't give them.

And I'm glad you use your real name. I don't hide mine either.
[/quote]
[i]
[size="2"]Those who 'abjure' violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf. [/size][/i]
-George Orwell, 'Notes on Nationalism'
[url="http://www.george-orwell.org/Notes_on_Nationalism/0.html"]http://www.george-or...ionalism/0.html[/url]

Edited February 27, 2011 by Hasan

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1298832060' post='2216152']
America spreads quite a bit of freedom. We led the charge to stop the slaughter in Bosnia and are still helping the Bosnia government advance reform. We recognized Kosovo. We pushed reform in Taiwan, South Korea, the Philippines, and Egypt.[/quote]

They funded Mubarak's military. They sold chemical weapons to Saddam, and alternately sold weapons to Iran. They installed the brutal Mossadegh to sell 'em oil at a good price. They supported Osama Bin Laden, Manuel Noriega, the Contras, Trujillo, and gave half of Europe to Stalin.

[quote]The primary credit for the revolution in Egypt goes to the Egyptians who had the mettle to stand up to Mubarak's thugs.[/quote]

Who were choking on American-made tear gas canisters.
[img]http://www.propublica.org/images/ngen/gypsy_image_lead_ngen/egypt-teargas-usa.jpg[/img]


[i]
[size="2"][quote]Those who 'abjure' violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf. [/size][/i]
-George Orwell, 'Notes on Nationalism'
[url="http://www.george-orwell.org/Notes_on_Nationalism/0.html"]http://www.george-or...ionalism/0.html[/url]
[/quote]

Who did violence on Jesus's behalf, with his approbation?

~Sternhauser

Edited February 27, 2011 by Sternhauser

[4588686]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1298836785' post='2216167']
They funded Mubarak's military.[/QUOTE]

Yes. They funded the military that kept peace with Israel and helped prevent another regional war. How many times have Egypt and Israel gone to war since we made Egypt's military dependent on us? The Egyptian military was the linchpin of who held power in Egypt that they decided against Mubarak helped win the day for the protesters.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12514316

[QUOTE]They sold chemical weapons to Saddam, and alternately sold weapons to Iran.[/QUOTE]

I don't know about chemical weapons for Saddam. If you can provide evidence for it I'll check it out.


[QUOTE]They installed the brutal Mossadegh to sell 'em oil at a good price.[/QUOTE]

Nope. Eisenhower helped oust Mossadegh with the CIA via operation AJAX after he nationalized Algo-Iranian (now known as BP) oil fields and infrastructure. The British managed to convince him that Mossadegh was a communist threat. We did prop up the Shah.

[QUOTE]They supported Osama Bin Laden[/QUOTE]

Nope. Not everyone fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan was working for Bin Laden.

[QUOTE]Manuel Noriega, the Contras, Trujillo,[/QUOTE]

I know next to nothing about Latin America. The impression I have gotten is that we did a lot of shameful things in the region during the cold war (and long before that as well).

[QUOTE]and gave half of Europe to Stalin.[/QUOTE]


So Stalin was chilling in Russia and we just said, "Hey Koba, how'd you like half of Europe???"

You are better than that sort of intellectually dishonest characterization.


[QUOTE]Who were choking on American-made tear gas canisters.
[img]http://www.propublica.org/images/ngen/gypsy_image_lead_ngen/egypt-teargas-usa.jpg[/img]


[i]
[size="2"][/QUOTE]

Yep.

[QUOTE]Who did violence on Jesus's behalf, with his approbation?

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Jesus didn't have to run a state.

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1298836785' post='2216167']
They funded Mubarak's military. They sold chemical weapons to Saddam, and alternately sold weapons to Iran. They installed the brutal Mossadegh to sell 'em oil at a good price. They supported Osama Bin Laden, Manuel Noriega, the Contras, Trujillo, and gave half of Europe to Stalin.



Who were choking on American-made tear gas canisters.
[img]http://www.propublica.org/images/ngen/gypsy_image_lead_ngen/egypt-teargas-usa.jpg[/img]


[i]
[size="2"]

Who did violence on Jesus's behalf, with his approbation?

~Sternhauser
[/quote]


These were called mistakes, part of the human condition. Mubarak was our allie, of course we sold him weapons. At different points in time both Iraq and Iran were both friendly to the U.S.and her interests. If we befriend and aid whatever political party comes in to power in Egypt when the dust settles, offer them aid and share our technology with them to enable them economic and miltary security with the end game of helping the average citizen and then someday 10-50 years down the road some nut use's that tyechnology or monies against us then some other nut will say " America funded them and sold them weapons" how can we or any other country or institution control the future usage of technologies? Thinking along those lines should the world be upset at England as they lost the wars and allowed America to become the great " Evil Empire " or should we just blame God for creating us?

ed

[4588686]

Stern.

I am not claiming that every foreign policy decision America has made has been for the advancement of freedom and the protection of human rights.

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1298838370' post='2216171']
Yes. They funded the military that kept peace with Israel and helped prevent another regional war. How many times have Egypt and Israel gone to war since we made Egypt's military dependent on us? The Egyptian military was the linchpin of who held power in Egypt that they decided against Mubarak helped win the day for the protesters.

[url="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12514316"]http://www.bbc.co.uk...e-east-12514316[/url] [/quote]

Egypt and Israel going to war or not going to war need not involve the United State.



[quote] don't know about chemical weapons for Saddam. If you can provide evidence for it I'll check it out.[/quote]

http://www.fff.org/comment/com0406g.asp More than a few independent reports.


[quote]
Nope. Eisenhower helped oust Mossadegh with the CIA via operation AJAX after he nationalized Algo-Iranian (now known as BP) oil fields and infrastructure. The British managed to convince him that Mossadegh was a communist threat. We did prop up the Shah. [/quote]

Sorry, had a bout of factual dislexia for a second there. They installed the Shah, not merely propped up.

[quote]
Nope. Not everyone fighting the Soviets in Afghanistan was working for Bin Laden.
[/quote]

Didn't say they were. I said they funded Bin Laden. Which they did. He was a hero when he was helping expel one Empire trying to invade and occupy them. Now anyone who is trying to do the same thing is a "terrorist."

[quote]
So Stalin was chilling in Russia and we just said, "Hey Koba, how'd you like half of Europe???"[/quote]

Roosevelt, Churchill and Stalin were chilling at the Yalta Conference, and they grabbed a National Geographic map and divvied up the continent right then and there. I'd say that cavalier plan amounts to the same thing. Don't overlook Operation Keelhaul, either.


[quote]Jesus didn't have to run a state.[/quote]

Who does?

~Sternhauser

[add]

“We have the best government that money can buy.”

- Mark Twain


[url="http://www.sarcasmsociety.com/sarcasticquotes/marktwain"]
[/url]

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1298838631' post='2216172']
These were called mistakes, part of the human condition. Mubarak was our allie, of course we sold him weapons. At different points in time both Iraq and Iran were both friendly to the U.S.and her interests. If we befriend and aid whatever political party comes in to power in Egypt when the dust settles, offer them aid and share our technology with them to enable them economic and miltary security with the end game of helping the average citizen and then someday 10-50 years down the road some nut use's that tyechnology or monies against us then some other nut will say " America funded them and sold them weapons" how can we or any other country or institution control the future usage of technologies? Thinking along those lines should the world be upset at England as they lost the wars and allowed America to become the great " Evil Empire " or should we just blame God for creating us?

ed
[/quote]

Ed, of all the laws the Statethugs break, their constent flouting of the law of unintended consequences is their most egregious offense. The combination of historical ignorance and political expedience ensure that innocent people will suffer because of the State's actions. I wouldn't trust a congressman to watch my dog for a weekend, yet you trust them to send money and weapons to foreign dictators. Do you think even a simple majority of people in congress and the Senate are moral people? Rosa DeLauro, Nancy Pelosi , Jim Moran, John Dingell, Loretta Sanchez, Joe Baca, Carolyn McCarthy and John Kerry, some primo publicly-dissenting "Catholics," come to mind. How many do you think have any understanding of or respect for the Just War Principle, or any respect for the principle of double effect? Never mind that, how many do you think aren't consequentialists?

~Sternhauser

Edited February 27, 2011 by Sternhauser

[Maximilianus]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRUjr8EVgBg&feature=related[/media]

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Maximilianus' timestamp='1298856059' post='2216300']
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRUjr8EVgBg&feature=related[/media]
[/quote]

I'll see your Ray Charles and raise you a Sibelius.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cvz9PvczUMI[/media]

~Sternhauser

Edited February 28, 2011 by Sternhauser

[Maximilianus]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKXKkgQf51A&feature=related[/media]

Edited February 28, 2011 by Maximilianus

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Maximilianus' timestamp='1298857381' post='2216305']
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKXKkgQf51A&feature=related[/media]


[/quote]

Organized crime in America.
[img]http://cdn.slashgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Congress.jpg[/img]


~Sternhauser

Edited February 28, 2011 by Sternhauser

[Nihil Obstat]

I'll see you guys whatever that stuff is, and raise you my favourite introit, Gaudeamus omnes in Domino.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7nFmuNeA1Y[/media]



No, it's not relevant. No, I don't care. I think it's lovely. It's the introit that was recorded on my Palestrina cd with Missa Papae Marcelli.

Edited February 28, 2011 by Nihil Obstat

[Maximilianus]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxIt9evRuN0&feature=related[/media]

[Maximilianus]

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3S7mlRYL-8[/media]

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1298857552' post='2216306']Organized crime in America.
[img]http://cdn.slashgear.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/Congress.jpg[/img][/quote]

Perhaps, but funny.

[Ed Normile]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1298844202' post='2216204']
Ed, of all the laws the Statethugs break, their constent flouting of the law of unintended consequences is their most egregious offense. The combination of historical ignorance and political expedience ensure that innocent people will suffer because of the State's actions. I wouldn't trust a congressman to watch my dog for a weekend, yet you trust them to send money and weapons to foreign dictators. Do you think even a simple majority of people in congress and the Senate are moral people? Rosa DeLauro, Nancy Pelosi , Jim Moran, John Dingell, Loretta Sanchez, Joe Baca, Carolyn McCarthy and John Kerry, some primo publicly-dissenting "Catholics," come to mind. How many do you think have any understanding of or respect for the Just War Principle, or any respect for the principle of double effect? Never mind that, how many do you think aren't consequentialists?

~Sternhauser
[/quote]

Stern, in America we have a representative republic, unfortunately these people do represent at least 50% of the country. When the wacko left liberals either move out or stop voting that will change. Name the country with a better track record for anything, peace, innovations, medical science, technology and maybe your argument will hold some validity.This planet is made up of humans, and as such we are all imperfect. Send us a perfect man and we will crucify him, thats the reality, all in all I am proud of America, its accomplishments and its people. I do not remember a time we engaged in a genocide, we wage war and then we rebuild and aid the vanquished, we have always been at the forefront in charitable enterprises. We have made some mistakes, but our system of government ensures they will not go unchecked. You clsim to be an Anarchist, what is your solution then?
ed

[Mr.Cat]

Edited February 28, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat

[Ice_nine]

*oops delete*

Edited February 28, 2011 by Ice_nine

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Ed Normile' timestamp='1298860194' post='2216316']
Stern, in America we have a representative republic, unfortunately these people do represent at least 50% of the country. When the wacko left liberals either move out or stop voting that will change. Name the country with a better track record for anything, peace, innovations, medical science, technology and maybe your argument will hold some validity.This planet is made up of humans, and as such we are all imperfect. Send us a perfect man and we will crucify him, thats the reality, all in all I am proud of America, its accomplishments and its people. [b]I do not remember a time we engaged in a genocide[/b], we wage war and then we rebuild and aid the vanquished, we have always been at the forefront in charitable enterprises. We have made some mistakes, but our system of government ensures they will not go unchecked. You clsim to be an Anarchist, what is your solution then?
ed
[/quote]
Some might classify the bombings of Japan to be genocide.