havok579257 Posted April 30, 2011 Posted April 30, 2011 [quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1304200741' post='2235129'] Oh, in that sense, I might agree with you. But I think the issues He talks about are real. He might just act in a certain way to grab the attention of His listeners. I do think He feels pretty strongly about a lot of what He says. I also think He loves to make liberals look bad. I have met some really conservative people who are similar to Michael Savage. [/quote] oh yes, the issues he talks about are real and he does feel strongly about liberalism being a mental disorder and such, although he cracks the dial up to 1000. the act is that he takes his views and goes completely over the top with them. i mean he is the only radio host i know who will consistantly scream into the mic all the time. i think he is hilarious for the stuff he says. like one day he was in a bad mood so all he did was play oldies and talk about cooking. i mean how amesome is that. a political talk show host talks about cooking and plays oldies music all show long. or when he refuses to give out his phone number because he doesn't want people to call the show. or how every single night he goes out to eat and has some crazy story. or how he is supposed to be the most conservative person out there, yet he lives in san fransisco. or his snotty accents when talking about obama and liberals. the guy's act is great. just don't take most of the stuff he says seriously.
infinitelord1 Posted April 30, 2011 Author Posted April 30, 2011 (edited) [quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1304205838' post='2235136'] oh yes, the issues he talks about are real and he does feel strongly about liberalism being a mental disorder and such, although he cracks the dial up to 1000. the act is that he takes his views and goes completely over the top with them. i mean he is the only radio host i know who will consistantly scream into the mic all the time. i think he is hilarious for the stuff he says. like one day he was in a bad mood so all he did was play oldies and talk about cooking. i mean how amesome is that. a political talk show host talks about cooking and plays oldies music all show long. or when he refuses to give out his phone number because he doesn't want people to call the show. or how every single night he goes out to eat and has some crazy story. or how he is supposed to be the most conservative person out there, yet he lives in san fransisco. or his snotty accents when talking about obama and liberals. the guy's act is great. just don't take most of the stuff he says seriously. [/quote] I agree with the majority of what He says. I will say that there have been some good points, in this thread, about how Illegal Aliens should be given medical care, but thats it. Edited April 30, 2011 by infinitelord1
Sternhauser Posted May 1, 2011 Posted May 1, 2011 [quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1304191604' post='2235093'] medical care... absolutly. no person in need of medical care should be turned away. [/quote] I don't disagree with your conclusion. I think I disagree with how you get to that conclusion. Do you think you have a right to [i]make[/i] a doctor give you services? ~Sternhauser
havok579257 Posted May 1, 2011 Posted May 1, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1304208090' post='2235145'] I don't disagree with your conclusion. I think I disagree with how you get to that conclusion. Do you think you have a right to [i]make[/i] a doctor give you services? ~Sternhauser [/quote] i think if you work in the medical field and you have ANY thoughts of refusing someone medical care you should NOT be in the medical field. i am a paramedic. i work in an major inner city. i treat numerous illegal immigrants and poor patients. i think last i heard something like 60% of all patients we care for do not pay for any of their services. so only about 40%(if its even that high) of people we treat pay for thier medical care. although never in a million years would i ever think about refusing medical care to someone who is illegal or has no money. i picked this profession to help people. the medical field is like no other field in the world. almost everyone who gets into this field does so to help people. so refusing to help people, for whatever reason is completely unexceptable to me. i don't care if they are illegal immigrants, if they are poor, if they are drunks who we take care of everyday and who abuse the system. i don't care. you got into the medical field to help people so do your dang job. its really that simple. so, i think if a doctor is refusing medical care to a non-paying patient or an illegal immigrant, they should not be a doctor. obviously the way it should be is this is never an issue. although with human beings, being the way we are, we know this is an issue. so i have no problem if the government has to force medical personel to do their jobs if they are refusing to do their jobs. if the doctors want to refuse service to people and pick and choose who they serve, they should find another profession. the medical field is about helping people.... all people. it is not and never should be about helpiing certain people only. Edited May 1, 2011 by havok579257
Sternhauser Posted May 1, 2011 Posted May 1, 2011 (edited) [quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1304219404' post='2235209'] so i have no problem if the government has to force medical personel to do their jobs if they are refusing to do their jobs. [/quote] So if a doctor refused, you would literally be OK with another actual human being going up to him and putting an actual gun to his head to make him render first aid? ~Sternhauser Edited May 1, 2011 by Sternhauser
havok579257 Posted May 1, 2011 Posted May 1, 2011 [quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1304220631' post='2235213'] So if a doctor refused, you would literally be OK with another actual human being going up to him and putting an actual gun to his head to make him render first aid? ~Sternhauser [/quote] did i EVER say anything about a gun? no, if a doctor refuses care to somoene, unless the doctors safety is a concern, then he should be stripped of his medical liscense and not be able to practice medicane. if he doesn't want to do his job for all people in need, then he should not be allowed to work in the profession.
Sternhauser Posted May 1, 2011 Posted May 1, 2011 [quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1304220820' post='2235215'] did i EVER say anything about a gun? no, if a doctor refuses care to somoene, unless the doctors safety is a concern, then he should be stripped of his medical liscense and not be able to practice medicane. if he doesn't want to do his job for all people in need, then he should not be allowed to work in the profession. [/quote] And if he practices without a license? ~Sternhauser
havok579257 Posted May 1, 2011 Posted May 1, 2011 [quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1304220917' post='2235216'] And if he practices without a license? ~Sternhauser [/quote] same thing as now. he can and will be sued for practicing without a liscense and possibly receive jail time. since it is against the law to practice medicane without a liscense. if a doctor is refusing to do his job or does something which does the opposite of helping people (euthinasia or abortion), they should lose their liscense and if they choose to still practice without a liscense, they should be sued and receive jail time.
Sternhauser Posted May 1, 2011 Posted May 1, 2011 [quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1304221301' post='2235218'] same thing as now. he can and will be sued for practicing without a liscense and possibly receive jail time. since it is against the law to practice medicane without a liscense. if a doctor is refusing to do his job or does something which does the opposite of helping people (euthinasia or abortion), they should lose their liscense and if they choose to still practice without a liscense, they should be sued and receive jail time. [/quote] In other words, "you will treat each person, or ultimately, we will use physical force against you. And if you resist, we will kill you." There's the gun, Havok. ~Sternhauser
havok579257 Posted May 1, 2011 Posted May 1, 2011 [quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1304221410' post='2235219'] In other words, "you will treat each person, or ultimately, we will use physical force against you. And if you resist, we will kill you." There's the gun, Havok. ~Sternhauser [/quote] ok, so you equate losing ones liscense with killing someone? or being sued with killing someone? or going to jail with killing someone? let me ask you something, i assume you don't work in the medical field. let's just say you don't if you do. if you went around acting like a doctor and treating patients without a medical liscense you think there should be absolutly no action taken against you? how about serving liquir at a bar without a liquir liscense? how about driving without a liscense? how about working in any number of fields that by law requires a liscense. do you think if your practicing without a liscense there should be no problem with that? another question. do you think doctors should be allowed to pick and choose who they treat? should they be able to refuse care to someone who is an illegal immigrant? how about someone who is black? how about someone who is christian? how about someone who is female? should doctors be allowed to treat only who they choose and everyone else is left to die?
Sternhauser Posted May 1, 2011 Posted May 1, 2011 [quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1304221804' post='2235221'] ok, so you equate losing ones liscense with killing someone? or being sued with killing someone? or going to jail with killing someone?[/quote] If you threaten someone with violence, merely for the act of treating patients without a particular permission slip, no matter how objectively skilled or qualified he is, if when he resists the imposition of violence upon him, he is killed, (and he will be) a grave injustice has been done. [quote]let me ask you something, i assume you don't work in the medical field. let's just say you don't if you do. if you went around acting like a doctor and treating patients without a medical liscense you think there should be absolutly no action taken against you?[/quote] As long as there is no fraud, meaning that the patient knows that a physician is not certified by a particular organization, there is nothing wrong with someone practicing medicine. It has been done for thousands of years before the State decided that it knew better than patients. And because the State has embedded itself like a tick into the entire field, you'll see that the decision of who lives or dies will instead be made by the State. [quote]how about serving liquir at a bar without a liquir liscense? how about driving without a liscense? how about working in any number of fields that by law requires a liscense. do you think if your practicing without a liscense there should be no problem with that?[/quote] Not only "should there be no problem" with any of those things, there [i]is[/i] no problem with any of those things, as long as one does those things responsibly and with regard to the rights of others. [quote]another question. do you think doctors should be allowed to pick and choose who they treat? should they be able to refuse care to someone who is an illegal immigrant? how about someone who is black? how about someone who is christian? how about someone who is female? should doctors be allowed to treat only who they choose and everyone else is left to die? [/quote] I think doctors should treat everyone. I have no right to threaten them with violence if they refuse. Neither do you. If neither you nor I have the right, then neither do the agents of the State. ~Sternhauser
havok579257 Posted May 1, 2011 Posted May 1, 2011 [quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1304222452' post='2235222'] If you threaten someone with violence, merely for the act of treating patients without a particular permission slip, no matter how objectively skilled or qualified he is, if when he resists the imposition of violence upon him, he is killed, (and he will be) a grave injustice has been done. As long as there is no fraud, meaning that the patient knows that a physician is not certified by a particular organization, there is nothing wrong with someone practicing medicine. It has been done for thousands of years before the State decided that it knew better than patients. And because the State has embedded itself like a tick into the entire field, you'll see that the decision of who lives or dies will instead be made by the State. Not only "should there be no problem" with any of those things, there [i]is[/i] no problem with any of those things, as long as one does those things responsibly and with regard to the rights of others. I think doctors should treat everyone. I have no right to threaten them with violence if they refuse. Neither do you. If neither you nor I have the right, then neither do the agents of the State. ~Sternhauser [/quote] so your have no problem with rascim if practiced in america? or sexism? you think they should be allowed to be practiced? cause your saying a doctor should be allowed to refuse someone care just because they are black, correct? if a doctor refuses to help somoene who is in need of medical attention and they end up dying how is that any different than abortion or euthinasia? i am guessing your against the later, so why is one way of killing someone ok but not the other? so let me understand this. according to your logic, since i am a paremedic, if somoene who comes up to me who has been shot and is dying. i am perfectly within my right to refuse to help them and instead can sit there and watch him die. if this were to happen you think there should be nothing wrong with that and there should be no punishment for me for refusing to help this person?
Sternhauser Posted May 1, 2011 Posted May 1, 2011 (edited) [quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1304223362' post='2235225'] so your have no problem with rascim if practiced in america? or sexism?[/quote] I do not approve of racism. Or sexism. But I will not use violence against someone who is racist and refuses to serve a white person. Or a black person. I will instead boycott his business, and encourage others to do the same. [quote]you think they should be allowed to be practiced? cause your saying a doctor should be allowed to refuse someone care just because they are black, correct?[/quote] Havok, would your company fire you if you refused to care for a black person? I'll wager it would. And as a voluntary contract, they have every right to terminate your employment. Do you disagree? Given a culture which despises racism, how long do you suppose a racist-embracing business would last? [quote]if a doctor refuses to help somoene who is in need of medical attention and they end up dying how is that any different than abortion or euthinasia? i am guessing your against the later, so why is one way of killing someone ok but not the other?[/quote] One is a direct act against human life. One is a lack of action to save human life. One may use violence to physically stop an aggressive act. One may not use violence to try to coerce someone's will to perform an act. Do you recognize the difference? [quote]so let me understand this. according to your logic, since i am a paremedic, if somoene who comes up to me who has been shot and is dying. i am perfectly within my right to refuse to help them and instead can sit there and watch him die. if this were to happen you think there should be nothing wrong with that and there should be no punishment for me for refusing to help this person?[/quote] No, you are not within your rights to do so. However, I am not within my rights to force you to care for him, and neither is anyone else. There[i] is[/i] something wrong with that, and I will wager that your company would fire you. If your company does not fire you, there are some larger cultural problems underfoot, and as the State's characteristics are informed by the cultural milieu, for good or for ill, all the statutes in the world wouldn't help the situation. The State is the cart. Culture is the horse. You're putting the cart before the horse. The horse can figure out how to walk on its own. It doesn't need to be continually bridled, bitted, prodded and whipped. It can live well enough without the resource-destroying dead weight behind it. ~Sternhauser Edited May 1, 2011 by Sternhauser
havok579257 Posted May 1, 2011 Posted May 1, 2011 [quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1304224145' post='2235229'] I do not approve of racism. Or sexism. But I will not use violence against someone who is racist and refuses to serve a white person. Or a black person. I will instead boycott his business, and encourage others to do the same. Havok, would your company fire you if you refused to care for a black person? I'll wager it would. And as a voluntary contract, they have every right to terminate your employment. Do you disagree? Given a culture which despises racism, how long do you supposed a racist-embracing business would last? One is a direct act against human life. One is a lack of action to safe human life. One may use violence to stop an aggressive act. One may not use violence to coerce someone's will to perform an act. Do you recognize the difference? No, you are not within your rights to do so. However, I am not within my rights to force you to care for him, and neither is anyone else. There is something wrong with that, and I will wager that your company would fire you. If your company does not fire you, there are some larger cultural problems at stake, and as the State's characteristics are informed by the cultural milieu, for good or for ill, all the statutes in the world wouldn't help. The State is the cart. Culture is the horse. You're putting the cart before the horse. The horse needs to get rid of the dead, resource-destroying weight behind it. ~Sternhauser [/quote] and this is where we will never agree. i work in the medical field. i got into it to help people. to sit there and watch someone as they die and refuse to help them when that is my job is wrong. if i ever did that i should not only be fired but also lose my liscense and be sent to jail. that is no different than euthinasia. absolutly no different. euthinasia can be done without directly lifting a finger. without actively doing anything. i understand you hate the state and everything it stands for. you think the state does nothing good. well sorry to inform you, just like with nearly all things in life, there is good and bad about it. it is the states responsibility to make sure a class of people is not being slighted. most of all when that class is a minority. by your logic, anyone should be allowed to refuse someone services because of the color of their skin. well if the only people who were hired as paramedics in a certain city were white people who refused to help black people, it would put a black person at a disadvantage and could and would lead to their death. it is a good thing the state does not allow this type of thing to happen. i understand you think that the state has no business butting in, but your wrong. the state needs to step in when a person or group of people is being denied basic rights. the right to life is the most basic right. it is God's most basic right. you have the right to life, no matter what your skin color, gender or fincial status is. you don't work in the medical field, so you can never understand what we do. we help people. that is our job. getting into the profession i knew it was my job to help all people. i knew that, accepted that and even agreed with it going in. that is part of the field. to refuse to do your job and have that lead to someone's death is wrong. i should not be allowed to work in my field if i refuse to do my job. the medical field can not be compared to any other field in the world. no other field of work holds a persons life in your hands. your ideas do not work in the medical field. in almost all other forms of jobs your idea works. not in the medical field. its a unique field of work which is not comparible to any other field of work. people should not be allowed to have medical care denied to them, thus letting them die. the right to refuse someone care so they die should never be a right. NEVER!
infinitelord1 Posted May 1, 2011 Author Posted May 1, 2011 [quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1304223362' post='2235225'] so your have no problem with rascim if practiced in america? or sexism? you think they should be allowed to be practiced? cause your saying a doctor should be allowed to refuse someone care just because they are black, correct? if a doctor refuses to help somoene who is in need of medical attention and they end up dying how is that any different than abortion or euthinasia? i am guessing your against the later, so why is one way of killing someone ok but not the other? so let me understand this. according to your logic, since i am a paremedic, if somoene who comes up to me who has been shot and is dying. i am perfectly within my right to refuse to help them and instead can sit there and watch him die. if this were to happen you think there should be nothing wrong with that and there should be no punishment for me for refusing to help this person? [/quote] Havok, I admire the fact that you help people when they are in need. But nobody made a racial issue out of this other than you. Are you sure you aren't a racist? I think we can all agree here that denying someone health care based on race is morally wrong.
havok579257 Posted May 1, 2011 Posted May 1, 2011 (edited) [quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1304225948' post='2235235'] Havok, I admire the fact that you help people when they are in need. But nobody made a racial issue out of this other than you. Are you sure you aren't a racist? I think we can all agree here that denying someone health care based on race is morally wrong. [/quote] EXCUSE ME, BUT WHAT THE HECK DID YOU ACCUSE ME OF??? I take extreme offense of someone who jumps in mid conversation and accuses me of being racist. That was a personal insult. Last I checked, this was a catholic board and personal insults are not catholic. although maybe i am wrong. maybe you can show me where Jesus says its ok to insult someone and make WILD accusations about someone. accusations that have no fact to them. but if your can't have a debate without throwing personal insults my way, feel free to not respond to my posts directed at someone else. you obviously don't understand how to read my posts or refuse to. the point about race is stern believes that no one for any reason in the medical field should be forced to help someone else. i wanted to clarify my point, hence why i brought up racism AND sexism AND fincial class. although you obviously did not read my posts and instead saw the word race and jumped on that word with peronsal insults. Edited May 1, 2011 by havok579257
Sternhauser Posted May 1, 2011 Posted May 1, 2011 (edited) [quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1304225604' post='2235234'] to sit there and watch someone as they die and refuse to help them when that is my job is wrong. if i ever did that i should not only be fired[/quote] Correct. [quote]i understand you hate the state and everything it stands for. you think the state does nothing good. well sorry to inform you, just like with nearly all things in life, there is good and bad about it.[/quote] Yes. There is good and bad about leeches, whorehouses, and Satan himself, too. It doesn't mean we need any of them to survive, or that their presence in one's life is at all desirable. [quote]it is the states responsibility to make sure a class of people is not being slighted.[/quote] Collectives do not have rights. Only individuals have rights. Therefore, only individuals have responsibilities. [quote]well if the only people who were hired as paramedics in a certain city were white people who refused to help black people, it would put a black person at a disadvantage and could and would lead to their death. it is a good thing the state does not allow this type of thing to happen.[/quote] Except when "black" is changed to "human" and "white" is changed to "police officer." Who do not have an obligation to protect any particular individual, according to the State's blackrobes. Again, you're putting the cart before the horse. You think the State can countermand an entrenched culture. It cannot. People were openly using chemical contraception and committing sodomy long before statutes against the practices were repealed. You cannot [i]make[/i] people good. You cannot morally [i]coerce[/i] their wills. Physical violence may only be used to stop physically aggressive attacks. [quote]i understand you think that the state has no business butting in, but your wrong. the state needs to step in when a person or group of people is being denied basic rights. the right to life is the most basic right. it is God's most basic right. you have the right to life, no matter what your skin color, gender or fincial status is.[/quote] The good of the right to life cannot be protected by the immoral means of coercing the free will. That includes torture. [quote]you don't work in the medical field, so you can never understand what we do.[/quote] Clearly. [quote]we help people. that is our job. getting into the profession i knew it was my job to help all people. i knew that, accepted that and even agreed with it going in. that is part of the field. to refuse to do your job and have that lead to someone's death is wrong. i should not be allowed to work in my field if i refuse to do my job.[/quote] Do you understand that I believe that everyone should be helped, and that physicians are morally obliged to assist in saving human life insofar as it is practical and possible? Did you catch that? I don't think you did. You should have. I repeated it several times in various ways. [quote]i should not be allowed to work in my field if i refuse to do my job.[/quote] Correct. You should be fired. But your free will may not be coerced. [quote]no other field of work holds a persons life in your hands.[/quote] You haven't seen people in State-issued clothing going overseas to kill people recently? [quote]people should not be allowed to have medical care denied to them, thus letting them die. the right to refuse someone care so they die should never be a right. NEVER![/quote] Again, have you not seen what I've written? There is a difference between a "right," and "not using physical violence to coerce someone's will to do their jobs." So you either believe that it is moral to coerce someone's will, or you believe what the Church teaches on the issue: "Whatever violates the integrity of the human person, such as mutilation, torments inflicted on body or mind,[i] [b]attempts to coerce the will itself;[/b][/i] . . . all these things and others like them are infamies indeed. They poison human society, and they do more harm to those who practice them than to those who suffer from the injury. Moreover, they are a supreme dishonor to the Creator" (GS 27, EV 3). Which is it going to be, Havok? ~Sternhauser Edited May 1, 2011 by Sternhauser
infinitelord1 Posted May 1, 2011 Author Posted May 1, 2011 [quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1304226524' post='2235236'] EXCUSE ME, BUT WHAT THE HECK DID YOU ACCUSE ME OF??? I take extreme offense of someone who jumps in mid conversation and accuses me of being racist. That was a personal insult. Last I checked, this was a catholic board and personal insults are not catholic. although maybe i am wrong. maybe you can show me where Jesus says its ok to insult someone and make WILD accusations about someone. accusations that have no fact to them. but if your can't have a debate without throwing personal insults my way, feel free to not respond to my posts directed at someone else. you obviously don't understand how to read my posts or refuse to. the point about race is stern believes that no one for any reason in the medical field should be forced to help someone else. i wanted to clarify my point, hence why i brought up racism AND sexism AND fincial class. although you obviously did not read my posts and instead saw the word race and jumped on that word with peronsal insults. [/quote] Ah so thats how you react when you can't call someone a racist. Instead you accuse them of insulting you.
havok579257 Posted May 1, 2011 Posted May 1, 2011 [quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1304226739' post='2235238'] Ah so thats how you react when you can't call someone a racist. Instead you accuse them of insulting you. [/quote] so now i was trying to call you racist, is that right? that makes no sense to anyone but you. you did insult me. you accused me of being racists. last i checked, racism is a sin. its something taught by the church as being wrong. you accused me of doing something against church teaching. something the church condemns. accusing me of being something not in line with the church and something that goes against church teaching. so yes, i take that as a huge insult. so not admitting wrongs must be something Jesus taught also. could you fill me in on where that is in the bible? are you sure your even catholic? cause that's not insulting at all, is it?
infinitelord1 Posted May 1, 2011 Author Posted May 1, 2011 (edited) [quote name='havok579257' timestamp='1304227134' post='2235239'] so now i was trying to call you racist, is that right? that makes no sense to anyone but you. you did insult me. you accused me of being racists. last i checked, racism is a sin. its something taught by the church as being wrong. you accused me of doing something against church teaching. something the church condemns. accusing me of being something not in line with the church and something that goes against church teaching. so yes, i take that as a huge insult. so not admitting wrongs must be something Jesus taught also. could you fill me in on where that is in the bible? are you sure your even catholic? cause that's not insulting at all, is it? [/quote] when did I call you a racist? Edited May 1, 2011 by infinitelord1
Recommended Posts