Affirmative Action

[Winchester]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1305572066' post='2242392']
The issue is simple, unjustified discrimination is always wrong. I would point out there is a difference between a job and a career, jobs just about anyone can do, careers not so much. I mean, do you really need someone more qualified to sweep floors for you?

But the problem is... such as in Texas, employment is "at-will" employment, meaning that with no reason and without warning, you can be dismissed. So technically an employer could dismiss you because you're catholic or atheist, or because they didn't like you, nothing to do with the job or career. But as long as they go with "at-will" dismissal, no crime has been committed. So how do you try to counteract that, affirmative action.

Now I do agree that certain policies that have formed under the umbrella of affirmative action have been bad, but that doesn't invalidate the need or good that such programs provide.
[/quote]
True. You do counteract liberty with legislation.

[dUSt]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1305572301' post='2242395']
You are correct the white liberal welfare state harms the black community.
[/quote]
I do agree with this. I say get rid of welfare.

[Socrates]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1305571789' post='2242388']
How do you know the tests weren't racially biased?[/quote]
How exactly would a firefighter's test be "racially biased"?

Anything to back that up?
(Oops, sorry, I was forgetting the whole "presumed racist until proven innocent" dictum.)

[quote]Here's the bottom line.

I am fine with whites having a harder time now. Call it reverse discrimination, call it discrimination, call it unfair, whatever. I, being white, have no problem working harder to accomplish things that may have been easier in the past. I welcome the challenge. I promise any "hardships" us whites would have to go through now because of AA can't even begin to compare to the hardships that blacks have to go through. Maybe it's my Catholic tendency to embrace repentance. Maybe it's my desire to put others before myself. Who knows.

It just comes off very silly and ridiculous to me when white people start talking about "discrimination". It's like, do they have any knowledge of history? Are they simply ignoring what this country did to black people? How can you justify any comparison? It absolutely floors me.
[/quote]
In other words, its about retribution for historical misdeeds, not justice. Let's start shooting up German kids for Nazi war crimes in WWII while we're at it.


[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1305572094' post='2242393']
Screw justice, fairness, or objectivity.

Just as so long white people can continue to discriminate against blacks and keep them in the U.S. government created ghettos where they belong.
[/quote]
Yep, the U.S. government will solve this by unjustly discriminating on the color of skin. And AA's thus far done a smashing job of ending the problems of inner city black ghettos. It should continue the good work.

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1305572106' post='2242394']
Actually, it's just accepting the principle of not judging a man by the color of his skin.
[/quote]
That's an archaic, racist principle, embraced by bigots like Martin Luther King Jr. to advance the cause of white supremacy.

Don't you know that racial revenge and meeting numerical quotas is where it's at?

[dUSt]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1305572106' post='2242394']
Actually, it's just accepting the principle of not judging a man by the color of his skin.
[/quote]
And I say this is impossible. I judge people all the time by the color of their skin.

[Winchester]

[s]Oh God, four posts in a row. But you people are too slow.[/s]

The real solution to these community problems will not come from legalized, codified discrimination. The real solution lies with private action. Black people starting black businesses and discriminating if they want. The welfare state harms and prolongs the problems, which have worsened since the Civil Rights movement. Employment and income has not improved steadily as we've grown further from the days of slavery. It did get worse after improving after all these attempts at social engineering. Black leaders like Jesse Jackson (and Jr.), Sheila Jackson Lee and that idiot Al Sharpton make their living by promoting a victim mentality that seeks solutions from outside--the man is keeping you down. He isn't. My neighbors getting rent assistance in my middle class neighborhood choose to maintain friendships with maniacs and criminals, just as my relatives choose their stupid path. There is plenty of opportunity, just as there are obstacles. The real problem is individual personal choice, and all the asinine government programs in the world will not stop it.

Edited May 16, 2011 by Winchester

[Socrates]

There's way to beaver dam many black dudes playing in the NBA and NFL!
(Especially when one considers that blacks are a minority in the American population at large.)

Obviously, that is due to racism in the NBA and NFL drafts, and government needs to immediately do something to fix this crisis, and stop unfairly depriving white boys of the right to earn multi-million salaries for playing ball!

[Socrates]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1305573558' post='2242413']
And I say this is impossible. I judge people all the time by the color of their skin.
[/quote]
I guess the government needs to stop you.

[Winchester]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1305571789' post='2242388']
How do you know the tests weren't racially biased?


[/quote]
Racial bias is defined solely by disparate impact. No one can point to a quality of the question, only to the result. That one test was found to have disparate impact, but the other found to not have it (although both are the exact same format) indicates that it's individual action on the part of the test takers. That one of the test takers has been capable of promoting twice before, has obtained a Master's Degree, operates as a fire instructor and did not buy the books for the test tells us that "disparate impact" is inadequate. I've worked with a few of the individuals.

[Winchester]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1305573558' post='2242413']
And I say this is impossible. I judge people all the time by the color of their skin.
[/quote]
It is impossible internally, but not externally. I may fight my prejudices, if I am aware of them.

[Amppax]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1305574117' post='2242424']
It is impossible internally, but not externally. I may fight my prejudices, if I am aware of them.
[/quote]

iawtc

[dUSt]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1305573534' post='2242412']
How exactly would a firefighter's test be "racially biased"?[/quote]
I don't know.

[quote]In other words, its about retribution for historical misdeeds, not justice. [/quote]
No, I think it is about justice for historical misdeeds.

[quote]Let's start shooting up German kids for Nazi war crimes in WWII while we're at it.[/quote]
I disagree with doing this, but I don't think I'd have a problem with a program that helps jews reclaim some of their lost property, even if it may inconvenience a few modern Germans.

[quote]Yep, the U.S. government will solve this by unjustly discriminating on the color of skin. And AA's thus far done a smashing job of ending the problems of inner city black ghettos. It should continue the good work.[/quote]
Well, I certainly don't agree with unjust discrimination. But like I said, the argument can be made that some discrimination is justified. AA hasn't eliminated ghettos. It may not be the best answer. I haven't heard anyone suggest anything better though. There are many other horrible government programs in place (welfare, section 8 housing, etc.) that actually counter-act anything that might actually be working. Programs that discourage work are bad. Programs that encourage work are good. That's why I don't have a big problem with AA.


[quote]That's an archaic, racist principle, embraced by bigots like Martin Luther King Jr. to advance the cause of white supremacy. Don't you know that racial revenge and meeting numerical quotas is where it's at?
[/quote]
This is the kind of stuff that we need to correct.

[MithLuin]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1305573839' post='2242417']
There's way too many black dudes playing in the NBA and NFL!
(Especially when one considers that blacks are a minority in the American population at large.)

Obviously, that is due to racism in the NBA and NFL drafts, and government needs to immediately do something to fix this crisis, and stop unfairly depriving white boys of the right to earn multi-million salaries for playing ball!
[/quote]

Haha, I was waiting for someone to point this out. It only took 25 pages .

[dUSt]

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1305573839' post='2242417']
There's way to beaver dam many black dudes playing in the NBA and NFL!
(Especially when one considers that blacks are a minority in the American population at large.)

Obviously, that is due to racism in the NBA and NFL drafts, and government needs to immediately do something to fix this crisis, and stop unfairly depriving white boys of the right to earn multi-million salaries for playing ball!
[/quote]
This argument would only hold weight if black people were in the position of social power.

[quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1305573914' post='2242419']
I guess the government needs to stop you.
[/quote]
Naw, luckily, I'm not in a position to hire anyone.

[Winchester]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1305574948' post='2242443']
This argument would only hold weight if black people were in the position of social power.

[/quote]
[i]That [/i]argument only holds weight if society is monolithic.

[dUSt]

[quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1305575021' post='2242444']
[i]That [/i]argument only holds weight if society is monolithic.
[/quote]
[i]That[/i] argument would only hold weight if over half the people in this country could define monolithic.