Affirmative Action

[Amppax]

Thanks for you thoughts!

[Era Might]

Define "affirmative action."

[Amppax]

[quote name='Era Might' timestamp='1304522182' post='2236823']
Define "affirmative action."
[/quote]

Ok (here comes wikipedia):

[quote][font=sans-serif][size=2][b]Affirmative action[/b] refers to policies that take factors including "race, color, religion, gender , or national origin into consideration in order to benefit an underrepresented group, usually as a means to counter the effects of a history of discrimination[color="#000000"].[/color] The focus of such policies ranges from employment and education to public contracting and health programs.[/size][/font][/quote]

that is pretty much covers it.

[dUSt]

I think it may still be needed, because there is still a significant amount of racism in this country, but am hopeful that we are quickly moving in a direction where it won't be needed.

[thessalonian]

Affirmative action is a form of discrimination. The end does not justify the means and so affirmative action is wrong in all cases. Any attempt to make race, gender (leave out sexual orientation) a selection criteria for jobs. edication, etc. should be opposed.

Edited May 4, 2011 by thessalonian

[thessalonian]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1304524616' post='2236856']
I think it may still be needed, because there is still a significant amount of racism in this country, but am hopeful that we are quickly moving in a direction where it won't be needed.
[/quote]

Fighting racism with what amounts to racism is not the way to go. I am all for trying to up the lving standards of those who have been put down by society in general. This can be done with a colorless education system that gives scholarships to low incomes whether white or black. Such programs will naturally catch more blacks who are less fortunate. With regard to hiring this requires laws and monitoring as well as legal action in courts. This is the only equitable way to handle discrimination. Make examples out of violaters. Education in schools needs to address this as well.

Edited May 4, 2011 by thessalonian

[Nihil Obstat]

I think it is wrong, however I also believe that employers have the right to hire or fire by any criteria they choose.

[Amppax]

*Edited: nevermind

Edited May 4, 2011 by Amppax

[dUSt]

[quote name='thessalonian' timestamp='1304527827' post='2236886']
Any attempt to make race, gender (leave out sexual orientation) a selection criteria for jobs. edication, etc. should be opposed.
[/quote]
The argument can be made that affirmative action is actually the mechanism that enforces this. If you truly believe that race should not be a selection criteria for jobs, you must realize that without affirmative action, many, many employers would only hire white males. You can't deny that racism exists. So--in order for race not to be part of the selection criteria--we need affirmative action, do we not?

I completely agree that if race was never a factor for employers, affirmative action would be wrong--but you must realize that race [b]IS[/b] a factor in the world we live in, with or without affirmative action. You simply can't get around that fact. Shouldn't we at least try to make it an even playing field?

[dUSt]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1304528254' post='2236894']
I think it is wrong, however I also believe that employers have the right to hire or fire by any criteria they choose.
[/quote]
What about webmasters? Do they have a right to allow or disallow access to their website by whatever criteria they choose? I'd like to see you show more support for this philosophy.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1304531057' post='2236911']
What about webmasters? Do they have a right to allow or disallow access to their website by whatever criteria they choose? I'd like to see you show more support for this philosophy.
[/quote]
Legality ≠ morality.

[HopefulBride]

I don't know how I feel about it.

I oppose it in some cases and in others I think meh. I do have this question for the folks who staunchly oppose it: What do you say when it comes to veteran's preference because honestly I view it the same way.

Now that I think about it I don't oppose it and I think it is a good thing (depending on how you use it - I interpret it the way an employer would apply veteran's preference when considering who to interview and who to hire)

[dUSt]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1304531181' post='2236914']
Legality ≠ morality.
[/quote]
So, racism is a legal issue, not a moral one? I'm confused.

[Vincent Vega]

Poll is too simplistic. I won't vote.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1304531579' post='2236923']
So, racism is a legal issue, not a moral one? I'm confused.
[/quote]
Racism is morally wrong. That doesn't make it right to legislate affirmative action.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1304524616' post='2236856']I think it may still be needed, because there is still a significant amount of racism in this country, but am hopeful that we are quickly moving in a direction where it won't be needed.[/quote]
Respectfully agreed. Women in the United States, moreover here, have had a disadvantage in education and employment. Interests, programs, and scholarships aimed at helping women is still needed.

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1304528254' post='2236894']I think it is wrong, however I also believe that employers have the right to hire or fire by any criteria they choose.[/quote]
So argumentatively, people could discriminate against Catholics or religious people, effectively making Catholics second class citizens. The more I read about your opinions the more I want to scream, ANARCHIST! That and I think you would fit right in at Rapture.

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1304531057' post='2236911']What about webmasters? Do they have a right to allow or disallow access to their website by whatever criteria they choose? I'd like to see you show more support for this philosophy.[/quote]
There is no law that says you have to Dust.

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1304531181' post='2236914']Legality ≠ morality.[/quote]
So the law shouldn't be involved in morality or ethics eh? So I suppose these people mixing morality of abortion with the legality of freedom should knock it off? People should freely choose if they want to have abortions or not, kill or people or not, steal from other people or not. Hopefully you are not as extreme to really think that Legality ≠ morality.

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1304531579' post='2236923']So, racism is a legal issue, not a moral one? I'm confused.[/quote]
I am too.

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1304531983' post='2236932']Racism is morally wrong. That doesn't make it right to legislate affirmative action.[/quote]
Because people ALWAYS choose the moral thing to do, what a naive mentality.

[Nihil Obstat]

Trolling/flamebaiting. I decline to respond.

[Nihil Obstat]

Just because some people don't seem to understand, the ≠ symbol means "does not equal". To use that in common discourse would mean that something is not the same as something else. It does not mean (as was so ridiculously implied) that the two concepts being discussed have no relation to each other. It means they are not the same.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1304533432' post='2236941']Just because some people don't seem to understand, the ≠ symbol means "does not equal". To use that in common discourse would mean that something is not the same as something else. It does not mean (as was so ridiculously implied) that the two concepts being discussed have no relation to each other. It means they are not the same.[/quote]
It's quite a valid question to ask, since you appear to me as an anarchist... You were arguing that while discrimination was immoral, that it shouldn't be a matter of law. So just because you disagree with someone and dislike them, isn't valid reason in the slightest to belittle someone or call them a troll. But then again, I wouldn't expect you to understand that.

Have you ignored me, per Lil Red's recommendation?

Edited May 4, 2011 by dUSt

[dUSt]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1304531983' post='2236932']
Racism is morally wrong. That doesn't make it right to legislate affirmative action.
[/quote]
So, in that same line of thinking...

Abortion is morally wrong. That doesn't make it right to legislate abortion laws.

How is that an argument?