Affirmative Action

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1304534420' post='2236948']
So, in that same line of thinking...

Abortion is morally wrong. That doesn't make it right to legislate abortion laws.

How is that an argument?
[/quote]
That would be an incorrect conclusion. Abortion is murder. Laws against murder are perfectly permissible.

Edited May 4, 2011 by Nihil Obstat

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1304533821' post='2236943']

Have you ignored me, per Lil Red's recommendation?
[/quote]
Lil Red is a lovely person and I'm very fond of her, but she's not my mommy.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1304535460' post='2236958']Laws against murder are perfectly permissible.
[/quote]
Which would be...laws legislating morality, right?
I'm genuinely curious how you reconcile these seemingly contradictory views.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1304535615' post='2236963']
Which would be...laws legislating morality, right?
I'm genuinely curious how you reconcile these seemingly contradictory views.
[/quote]
I didn't say any law is impermissible because it is a law, or because it deals with morality.

[4588686]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1304535460' post='2236958']
That would be an incorrect conclusion. Abortion is murder. Laws against murder are perfectly permissible.
[/quote]


Why?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Hasan' timestamp='1304535769' post='2236969']
Why?
[/quote]
Not interested in talking to you about this again.

[Amppax]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1304531777' post='2236929']
Poll is too simplistic. I won't vote.
[/quote]

apologies, I would have created an other, but I kind of made it on the fly, after i made it i realized that it was probably not extensive enough.

[dUSt]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1304535460' post='2236958']
That would be an incorrect conclusion. Abortion is murder. Laws against murder are perfectly permissible.
[/quote]
Sorry, let me retry.

Rape is morally wrong. That doesn't make it right to legislate laws against rape.

So do you agree with that?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1304536006' post='2236973']
Sorry, let me retry.

Rape is morally wrong. That doesn't make it right to legislate laws against rape.

So do you agree with that?
[/quote]
Dissentio.

[Amppax]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1304535677' post='2236965']
I didn't say any law is impermissible because it is a law, or because it deals with morality.
[/quote]

Ok, well where do you draw the line?

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1304536139' post='2236976']
Ok, well where do you draw the line?
[/quote]
I'm sorry. I have nothing whatsoever against you, but I've decided to participate no further in this thread.

[HopefulBride]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1304536139' post='2236976']
Ok, well where do you draw the line?
[/quote]

Yes please, where? Because obviously we can't trust people to always choose the right thing so in the interest of society laws are set to make sure the people do the moral thing and I would think that Affirmative Action, anti-abortion, anti-rape laws fall withing that (as far as being permissible)

[Amppax]

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1304536247' post='2236979']
I'm sorry. I have nothing whatsoever against you, but I've decided to participate no further in this thread.
[/quote]

Ok, no problem.

[ParadiseFound]

I think it's unhelpful and hypocritical, personally. If we want to build a truly colourblind society then we should stop worrying so much about what race someone is.

[Groo the Wanderer]

I was once told by a former manager that I was his 'token Mexican'. This offended me deeply for two reasons:

1. it made me doubt whether my skills were up to par with everyone else's. I want to be hired for what I know and can contribute, not for my ancestry. The rest of my time there, I felt my career was clouded with doubt...who else tolerated my presence instead of respecting my skillz?

2. I ain't Mexican. I'm half-Puerto Rican



Hiring based on any criteria other than skill, experience, and ability is wrong. Always.

[Amppax]

[quote name='ParadiseFound' timestamp='1304536649' post='2236985']
I think it's unhelpful and hypocritical, personally. If we want to build a truly colourblind society then we should stop worrying so much about what race someone is.
[/quote]


I don't think that the goal[i] is[/i] a colorblind society, per se. I would argue that it is one that accepts and celebrates cultural/racial/etc differences,[i] and [/i]allows everybody to be what they are. The problem with saying that the goal is a colorblind society is that it ignores all cultural differences, which in itself is a form of discrimination. We can't pretend that everybody is the same, we're all different, and to ignore those differences isn't productive.

[ParadiseFound]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1304537285' post='2236999']
I don't think that the goal[i] is[/i] a colorblind society, per se. I would argue that it is one that accepts and celebrates cultural/racial/etc differences,[i] and [/i]allows everybody to be what they are. The problem with saying that the goal is a colorblind society is that it ignores all cultural differences, which in itself is a form of discrimination. We can't pretend that everybody is the same, we're all different, and to ignore those differences isn't productive.

[/quote]
Hmmm, I suppose you're right. I think 'colourblind society' was the wrong term for me to use.

I can't get over people spelling 'colour' without the 'u'. It just looks wrong.

[Amppax]

[quote name='ParadiseFound' timestamp='1304537883' post='2237007']
Hmmm, I suppose you're right. I think 'colourblind society' was the wrong term for me to use.

I can't get over people spelling 'colour' without the 'u'. It just looks wrong.
[/quote]

That is understandable, I used to spell it with a 'u' myself, and then had points taken off all through grade school. Trained that out of me real quickly [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/like.gif[/img]

[AudreyGrace]

[quote name='Groo the Wanderer' timestamp='1304536885' post='2236993']
1. it made me doubt whether my skills were up to par with everyone else's. I want to be hired for what I know and can contribute, not for my ancestry. The rest of my time there, I felt my career was clouded with doubt...who else tolerated my presence instead of respecting my skillz?
[/quote]

I'm not sure how I feel about affirmative action, but I lean more towards the "against it" side, mostly for reasons such as this. I've also seen/heard people take advantage of their race specifically for hiring purposes and the like.

I understand what Amppax and dUSt were saying about how it can help embrace ethnic differences and create equal opportunities for all, but if someone is being called a "token Mexican", their race is being degraded and a white person is being shorted out in the process, too (granted they were actually more qualified for the job). Racism in the professional world is probably still a problem, but I'm not sure affirmative action is a way to erase that.

Honestly, I don't have a strong opinion either way. =/

[cmotherofpirl]

When I was in college they decided to have an affirmative action program to increase minority students. The school [at that point] accepted 200 freshman for nursing but by the end of the sophomore summer only 30 people actually get into the nursing program. Those AA kids never had a chance, since they hadn't had to meet the qualifications that the rest of did just to enter the program. It was unfair to the kids and the program to go thru such shennanigans to meet some made up quota.
Better to improve the elementary, middle-school and high schools so ALL kids have a chance. This however, won't happen in my state because our districts are funded by individual town school districts so if you live in a poor area your education is inferior to begin with, and our state really doesn't have the money willpower or guts to change the system or make up the difference.

When it comes to the job market, race shouldn't even be a factor and not on an application. The best qualified should get the job.