Affirmative Action

[Guest]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' timestamp='1304549833' post='2237174']
I don't think it makes sense to discriminate against people today because people discriminated in the past. I also don't think it makes ANY sense to say well of 100 people we have to hire 5 minorities to meet some made-up quota. What if 10 exceptionally qualified minorities show up ? You only have to hire 5 and then 5 good people miss out on a job.
Why not just hire or admit or whatever the best qualified people that meet the criteria of the job? And who gets to decide who is a "minority"? What of a person of mixed ancestry? Do you then reserve a number of slots for people who are mixtures of various groups? This maybe sounds like nit-picking but it isn't. On a geneology forum we were recently were discussing DNA ethnicity testing, and evidently some people are doing it to claim minority status to get scholarships designated for specific groups, such as Native Americans. They don't look Indian, were not raised on reservations but can claim inidan ancestry just to get special status. THat is just BS.
[/quote]
Did you read what Dust posted just about names alone ?

[Amppax]

Again, i agree with everybody saying that we can't live in the past, and can't truly make up for past wrongs. I UNDERSTAND. My take on this is different then yours however. No we can't make up for past wrongs, but we can prevent future ones! We can take positive steps to reduce racism, and part of that is TRYING to make up for wrongs. There can't be reconciliation without forgiveness. If someone in my family had killed someone, i know i would try to make up for it, even though there is absolutely nothing i could do. i believe it is the same principle, only on a larger scale.

[dUSt]

I have no problem with a "less qualified" black person getting selected for a job over a "more qualified" white person. Qualification is not just about resumes or GPAs. If you take a black person raised in the ghetto, with horrible schools, with a family history of poverty, and then compare them to a white kid raised in a rich neighborhood with a wealthy family, chances are, that white kid may be "more qualified" than that black person. Of course he would be! Look at the opportunities he's had in comparison! So, when you talk about "qualifications", it doesn't even begin to start off on a level playing field.

Like I said earlier, it's not about punishing white people for their ancestors sins, and it's not about holding down the white man (laughable), it's about[b] leveling the playing field today[/b]. Forget about slavery and what that did for a second. The Jim Crow laws that came after slavery were majorly flawed. They created hyper-segregation, and established a culture of poverty for blacks. A culture which still exists today. So, as soon as you can prove to me that today's inner city black kids have all of the same opportunities, and all of the same access to good schools, only then can you start talking to me about "same qualifications".

Also, have you ever thought about what it takes for a black person to have the "same qualifications" as a white person. Realistically? Wouldn't it be safe to assume, depending on the most probable scenario, that the average black person would have to work a lot harder than the average white person to achieve those "same qualifications"? Is [b]that[/b] fair? Why should black people have to work harder to achieve the same results? Not fair at all if you ask me.

Honestly, affirmative action not being "fair" to white people just sounds so ridiculous to me.

The whole purpose of affirmative action is to help black people escape from the culture of poverty and to assimilate back into the rest of society. If that means a few less qualified people get jobs over the more privileged, so be it. It's only correcting the wrongs that shouldn't have happened in the first place.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1304542679' post='2237052']
Dude black people couldn't even use the same bathroom or drink out of the same waterfountian as whites. They deserve any small benefits they may get now. That being said there are poor people of every race that are treated like croutons. But black people were singled out bad in this country.
[/quote]

[quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1304542931' post='2237055']
ha, i was just gonna write something similar to this, but mine was gonna be rude....

oh, heck, I'll just say this...


when your race is singled out for centuries, treated like animals, whipped, hunted, hated, hung and butchered, ...


Then come back and say something about what you think about affirmative action....
[/quote]

I'm sorry, I thought the struggles from 1860 to the the late 70s and beyond were about [u]equality[/u], not [u]superiority[/u].


[quote name='ParadiseFound' timestamp='1304543056' post='2237059']
That was an awful thing, but the generation of blacks growing up now didn't have to put up with it and the generation of whites growing up now did not cause it.
[/quote]
Exactly. The atrocities that befell colored people for decades upon decades in this Country were horrifying and detestable. But why should I be punished and have to pay a for the transgressions of other white people who lived more than a century ago, especially considering that a very small proportion of my ancestors were even in this country, and an even smaller proportion were slaveholders (and certainly many, dare I say most, white Americans' ancestors weren't even on this continent during the time of slavery)?

[Guest]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1304551841' post='2237188']
Again, i agree with everybody saying that we can't live in the past, and can't truly make up for past wrongs. I UNDERSTAND. My take on this is different then yours however. No we can't make up for past wrongs, but we can prevent future ones! We can take positive steps to reduce racism, and part of that is TRYING to make up for wrongs. There can't be reconciliation without forgiveness. If someone in my family had killed someone, i know i would try to make up for it, even though there is absolutely nothing i could do. i believe it is the same principle, only on a larger scale.
[/quote]


[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1304551911' post='2237189']
I have no problem with a "less qualified" black person getting selected for a job over a "more qualified" white person. Qualification is not just about resumes or GPAs. If you take an a black person raised in the ghetto, with horrible schools, with a family history of poverty, and then compare them to a white kid raised in a rich neighborhood with a wealthy family, chances are, that white kid may be "more qualified" than that black person. Of course he would be! Look at the opportunities he's had in comparison! So, when you talk about "qualifications", it doesn't even begin to start off on a level playing field.

Like I said earlier, it's not about punishing white people for their ancestors sins, and it's not about holding down the white man (laughable), it's about[b] leveling the playing field today[/b]. Forget about slavery and what that did. The Jim Crow laws that came after slavery were majorly flawed. They created hyper-segregation, and established a culture of poverty for blacks. A culture which still exists today. So, as soon as you can prove to me that today's inner city black kids have all of the same opportunities, and all of the same access to good schools, only then can you start talking to me about "same qualifications".
[/quote]

[MissScripture]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1304546265' post='2237117']
I don't see it as discrimination at all. If a company has 100 employees, and is required by law that say five of them are black, how is that discriminating against whites? There are 95 positions that white person has an opportunity to land.

A study conducted at the University of Chicago in 2003* found that people with "black-sounding" names such as Lakisha and Jamal are 50 percent less likely to be interviewed for a job compared to people with "white-sounding" names such as Emily or Greg.[b] 50 percent less likely[/b] to get an interview. I can only imagine how this number translates to actual interviews when the person shows up face to face. And that is 2003, not 1963.

Calling affirmative action "discriminating against whites" may hold up as a theory, but if we are judging based on [b]actual reality[/b], then that claim is pretty bunk.

* [size="1"]Study source: http://economics.uchicago.edu/download/_DISCRIMINATION.pdf[/size]
[/quote]
I wonder if this will change at all in the future with more and more unique names being given and fewer "traditional" and "white" sounding names? Although, I suppose if it does, people will just say that folks are less racist than they were.

[Guest]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1304552122' post='2237190']
I'm sorry, I thought the struggles from 1860 to the the late 70s and beyond were about [u]equality[/u], not [u]superiority[/u].



Exactly. The atrocities that befell colored people for decades upon decades in this Country were horrifying and detestable. But why should I be punished and have to pay a for the transgressions of other white people who lived more than a century ago, especially considering that a very small proportion of my ancestors were even in this country, and an even smaller proportion were slaveholders (and certainly many, dare I say most, white Americans' ancestors weren't even on this continent during the time of slavery)?
[/quote]
" colored people ?? " lol wow I'm gonna go workout and go play cards. Some of you are blinded and I don't see how cause you're smart people. Godbless ya !

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1304552461' post='2237195']
" colored people ?? " lol wow I'm gonna go workout and go play cards. Some of you are blinded and I don't see how cause you're smart people. Godbless ya !
[/quote]
Yes, colored people, a term that includes people of African origin, Caribbean origin, Latino (including native Mesoamerican and mestizo peoples), Asians, and all other non-white people, all of whom were discriminated against for many years. I fail to see how including the hardships of people other then solely blacks makes me "blinded".

Edited May 4, 2011 by USAirwaysIHS

[dUSt]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1304552122' post='2237190']
But why should I be punished and have to pay a for the transgressions of other white people who lived more than a century ago, especially considering that a very small proportion of my ancestors were even in this country, and an even smaller proportion were slaveholders (and certainly many, dare I say most, white Americans' ancestors weren't even on this continent during the time of slavery)?
[/quote]
Listen to what you are saying.

Why should you be punished. Do you not think black people are still being punished for the results of slavery and segregation?

Believe me, I understand completely the thought of "being punished" for the sins of your ancestors. Forget that. Let's just look at today. If you can honestly say that black people today are unaffected by what happened during slavery and then the laws following slavery, then you completely have a point. All laws should be equal.

But you can't say that.

So, to answer your question. Why should you be punished and pay today? [b]Because black people are still being punished and are still paying today.[/b]

How can you just say "not my problem" to them?

[Guest]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1304552861' post='2237198']
Yes, colored people, a term that includes people of African origin, Caribbean origin, Latino (including native Mesoamerican and mestizo peoples), Asians, and all other non-white people, all of whom were discriminated against for many years. I fail to see how including the hardships of people other then solely blacks makes me "blinded".
[/quote]
I think you're blinded if you can't see the points Dust is making. And a big lol at calling them colored people. That's on you though. Peace bro.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1304553256' post='2237202']
Listen to what you are saying.

Why should you be punished. Do you not think black people are still being punished for the results of slavery and segregation?

Believe me, I understand completely the thought of "being punished" for the sins of your ancestors. Forget that. Let's just look at today. If you can honestly say that black people today are unaffected by what happened during slavery and then the laws following slavery, then you completely have a point. All laws should be equal.

But you can't say that.

So, to answer your question. Why should you be punished and pay today? [b]Because black people are still punished and have to pay today.[/b]

How can you just say "not my problem" to them?
[/quote]
I wasn't responding to the points you've made nor the question about AA. I was only responding to individual talking points brought up earlier in the thread. Do I think that many black people are stuck in a cyclical pattern of poverty? Yes. Do I think that AA is the way to go about it? No. Do I have a better solution. No. I'm no politician. But just because I don't have a better answer doesn't mean that the current solution is the ideal one.

[Amppax]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1304553256' post='2237202']
Listen to what you are saying.

Why should you be punished. Do you not think black people are still being punished for the results of slavery and segregation?

Believe me, I understand completely the thought of "being punished" for the sins of your ancestors. Forget that. Let's just look at today. If you can honestly say that black people today are unaffected by what happened during slavery and then the laws following slavery, then you completely have a point. All laws should be equal.

But you can't say that.

So, to answer your question. Why should you be punished and pay today? [b]Because black people are still punished and have to pay today.[/b]

How can you just say "not my problem" to them?
[/quote]

And adding to this, are you really being "punished"?
[font="Arial"][size="2"][quote]punishment: suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution[/quote][/size][/font]
[font="Arial"][size="2"]
[/size][/font]
[font="Arial"][size="2"]is this retribution? I don't think so. I would say its more of an olive branch on out part to help and make our society more fair and more just.[/size][/font]

[penguin31]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1304549841' post='2237175']
You need to read the post Dust made a few post up. Godbless and Peace be with you !
[/quote]

Read the majority of the study. I stand informed.

[dairygirl4u2c]

once again deliveryboy is reading too much into what other people say, and acting knee jerk. when the folks are just being objectively minded, and not even close to 'racist' or 'blinded'

Edited May 5, 2011 by dairygirl4u2c

[Guest]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' timestamp='1304554425' post='2237218']
once again deliveryboy is reading too much into what other people say, and acting knee jerk. when the folks are just being objectively minded, and not even close to 'racist' or 'blinded'
[/quote]
Dude go milk a cow honestly. You do not want to go to war with Delivery Boy aka No-tw with Know-tw. It will be the end of you. Go to sleep. And you are racist. You're the only one I'm calling racist. So again go milk some cows and have a good day.

Edited May 5, 2011 by Guest

[Vincent Vega]

And members of Phatmass continue to exemplify the charity of Our Lord. Excellent.

[Guest]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1304554708' post='2237224']
And members of Phatmass continue to exemplify the charity of Our Lord. Excellent.
[/quote]
And members of phatmass call black people and non white people " colored people " just as excellent. We make a good team.

[dUSt]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1304553559' post='2237208']
I wasn't responding to the points you've made nor the question about AA. I was only responding to individual talking points brought up earlier in the thread. Do I think that many black people are stuck in a cyclical pattern of poverty? Yes. Do I think that AA is the way to go about it? No. Do I have a better solution. No. I'm no politician. But just because I don't have a better answer doesn't mean that the current solution is the ideal one.
[/quote]
Point taken. I'm not convinced affirmative action is the best solution either. I actually think it should start with schools and maybe even incentive programs for big businesses to move into poverty stricken areas with something other than minimum wage paying jobs. I don't know. I don't have the answers. I'm just not dismissing affirmative action as quickly as others because at least it's something--even though it may cause more grief than good.

I am convinced of one thing though, that it isn't "unfair" to white people. If that is the argument that continually arises, then a better solution will never materialize. I can think of many other more legitimate reasons affirmative action isn't the solution, but taking the "unfair to white people" stance just makes me laugh.

[Vincent Vega]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' timestamp='1304554905' post='2237229']
And members of phatmass call black people and non white people " colored people " just as excellent. We make a good team.
[/quote]
You'd prefer that I call them non-White? (Hint: if something is not white, then what is it?) Also, I was in a rush earlier, and had intended to write "People of Color", which I guess is more politically correct nowadays, but seems to me to be the same term.

[Guest]

[quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1304555079' post='2237233']
You'd prefer that I call them non-White? (Hint: if something is not white, then what is it?) Also, I was in a rush earlier, and had intended to write "People of Color", which I guess is more politically correct nowadays, but seems to me to be the same term.
[/quote]
Well at any rate I'm not calling you racist. I don't even know you. Peace.