dUSt Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 [quote name='ParadiseFound' timestamp='1304617567' post='2237569'] What if it is the white guy who's had to fight his way through substandard education whilst the black guy cruises through an expensive private school? [/quote] Progress! We need more of it! [b]2008 US Census:[/b] 13.2% of the general population lived in poverty [color="#CC0000"][b]8.6% of all European Americans[/b][/color] 11.8% of all Asian Americans 23.2% of all Hispanics (of any nationality) [color="#CC0000"][b]24.2% of all American Indians and Alaska Natives 24.7% of all African Americans.[/b][/color] The example you cite is encouraging, but we need these numbers to even out more before all the oppression, harmful and unjust laws created in the past are rectified. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Cat Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 (edited) Being very pro-education, I do agree that every level of our education needs a overhaul. Primary and secondary education in the United States lags behind the rest of the developed world, while we do have some of the best universities in the world, most of our tertiary or higher education is still is inadequate and disenfranchises too many. Part of the problem is I suspect, we don't have the cultural or the political drive to improve our schools and colleges. Also we have an anti-government movement that would like to dis-empower and shrink your government so it could comfortably be locked in your bedroom, the only apparent place that these people want regulated. There is improvement on local levels that shouldn't be ignored, but we are still far behind, and most of this improvement has been on the primary levels. So we are leaving the immediate and future generations out in the cold... But back to the topic, there is discrimination and disenfranchisement in our employment and education, and I think any decent upstanding person would condone any and all necessary force to change this "[i]immoral[/i]" situation. Just as if there was a crime spree, I would think any decent upstanding person would condone any and all necessary force to stop it. Edited May 5, 2011 by Mr.CatholicCat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HopefulBride Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 [quote name='ParadiseFound' timestamp='1304616912' post='2237566'] I think it's wrong to judge just by skin colour. What if the white guy is Polish or South African or whatever instead of American? [/quote] Funny thing is he would still get preferential treatment in some places.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 [quote name='Tearz of Wine' timestamp='1304585499' post='2237442'] I believe affirmitive action is racism with the intent to remove racism, and there fore it is still racism. and if you've seen american history x you see that this type of thing also creates more racism. [/quote] [quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1304597336' post='2237470'] It's the perfect analogy for the "War on Poverty," and its little hydra heads of welfare, food stamps, and Section 8 housing. It's like a big, condescending government pat on the backs of black people, while saying, "You're right, black people. You [i]can't[/i] make it on your own. Here, have some handouts from the nice rich white men. Don't even try to improve your lot in life, because if you start making over X, the benefits disappear, and you'll fall back into impoverishment." It's wrong and racist to force someone to hire someone because of his skin color, as opposed to hiring him on the basis of his skills. ~Sternhauser [/quote] [quote name='ParadiseFound' timestamp='1304616912' post='2237566'] I think it's wrong to judge just by skin colour. What if the white guy is Polish or South African or whatever instead of American? [/quote] [quote name='ParadiseFound' timestamp='1304617567' post='2237569'] I understand where you're coming from, however you simply can't judge how privileged a life someone has had by how much melanin they happen to have in their skin. What if it is the white guy who's had to fight his way through substandard education whilst the black guy cruises through an expensive private school? [/quote] Ditto to all the above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1304620159' post='2237582'] Progress! We need more of it! [b]2008 US Census:[/b] 13.2% of the general population lived in poverty [color="#CC0000"][b]8.6% of all European Americans[/b][/color] 11.8% of all Asian Americans 23.2% of all Hispanics (of any nationality) [color="#CC0000"][b]24.2% of all American Indians and Alaska Natives 24.7% of all African Americans.[/b][/color] The example you cite is encouraging, but we need these numbers to even out more before all the oppression, harmful and unjust laws created in the past are rectified. [/quote] True progress will not be brought about by more government meddling and enforcing of racial quotas. You can't fight injustice with injustice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 [quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1304622763' post='2237603'] Being very pro-education, I do agree that every level of our education needs a overhaul. Primary and secondary education in the United States lags behind the rest of the developed world, while we do have some of the best universities in the world, most of our tertiary or higher education is still is inadequate and disenfranchises too many. Part of the problem is I suspect, we don't have the cultural or the political drive to improve our schools and colleges.[/quote] Yes, we need our politicians to make the rest of us, like, you know, smart n' stuff. [quote]Also we have an anti-government movement that would like to dis-empower and shrink your government so it could comfortably be locked in your bedroom, the only apparent place that these people want regulated.[/quote] Yeah, us anti-government types have been lobbying long and hard to get cops posted in every bedroom. Wouldn't want to let folks steal stuff from under our beds while we sleep, you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amppax Posted May 5, 2011 Author Share Posted May 5, 2011 [quote name='Socrates' timestamp='1304634870' post='2237693'] True progress will not be brought about by more government meddling and enforcing of racial quotas. You can't fight injustice with injustice. [/quote] again, go back to the beginning of the thread, I don't think we are advocating quota's, at least i'm not. As for government meddling, I've always viewed the government's job as protecting its citizens, and protecting them from injustice is one of those roles. If to protect against injustice, they need to "level the playing field" (although i dislike this expression, and its not exactly what i want to say) then I am for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1304620159' post='2237582'] Progress! We need more of it! [b]2008 US Census:[/b] 13.2% of the general population lived in poverty [color="#CC0000"][b]8.6% of all European Americans[/b][/color] 11.8% of all Asian Americans 23.2% of all Hispanics (of any nationality) [color="#CC0000"][b]24.2% of all American Indians and Alaska Natives 24.7% of all African Americans.[/b][/color] The example you cite is encouraging, but we need these numbers to even out more before all the oppression, harmful and unjust laws created in the past are rectified. [/quote] You think this is due to factors the government can fix through legislation? Mere numbers aren't enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
infinitelord1 Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 (edited) I think as long as it helps a group of people (who are in need), and it doesn't give a group/groups of people an advantage over other groups of people then it is OK. So I think Affirmative Action is good to a certain point. Edited May 5, 2011 by infinitelord1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1304637173' post='2237712'] You think this is due to factors the government can fix through legislation? Mere numbers aren't enough. [/quote] The government's been helping the hell out of American indians for over 200 years. Look at all they've accomplished for them. ~Sternhauser Edited May 5, 2011 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
add Posted May 5, 2011 Share Posted May 5, 2011 (edited) [b]Affirmative Action is a win[/b] a few years ago i was running a large construction project with strict Affirmative Action hiring requirements. i hired carpenters and laborers per the requirements and was disappointed, as most of the workers refused to work knowing or thinking that they could not be fired because of there minority status. i turned to the local native American nation, the Onondaga nation. not only did i find excellent hardworking individuals, but the man and woman turned out to be my best tradespeople in the whole entire crew and friends. had it not been for Affirmative Action i would never have put them on the payroll i had to fire, the original crew and was threatened with legal action, i did , those people lost out , in more ways that one. Edited May 6, 2011 by apparently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MissScripture Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 [quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1304639576' post='2237728'] The government's been helping the hell out of American indians for over 200 years. Look at all they've accomplished for them. ~Sternhauser [/quote] Well, if you want to get really technical, what the US gov't is supposed to do for Native Americans is to pay them for the land that the US took from them. It makes me wonder why anyone would ever want to give the US anything, if that's the way they pay their debts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sternhauser Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 (edited) [quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1304640466' post='2237736'] Well, if you want to get really technical, what the US gov't is supposed to do for Native Americans is to pay them for the land that the US took from them. It makes me wonder why anyone would ever want to give the US anything, if that's the way they pay their debts. [/quote] Now if only they could inflate the [i]land[/i] supply, AKA "spatial easing," we'd be so much better off. They've already effectively doubled the money supply in a span of 3 years. What could possibly go wrong? [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUvm9UgJBtg[/media] See, pouring water into a bucket of milk makes [i]more milk for everyone![/i] ~Sternhauser Edited May 6, 2011 by Sternhauser Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1304573300' post='2237420'] That's ridiculous. That would actually be like me arguing that black people should enslave white people and create laws which make white people less than human, until white people are so marginalized and segregated from mainstream society that they fall into a state of hereditary poverty. That's hardly what affirmative action is, and I'm surprised you're even trying to make that analogy. [/quote] You don't think reverse discrimination is a grave moral evil and so you think it's ridiculous. I have been in the working world for 23 years and have seen AA in action. It is discrimination. You can't make up for grave moral evils of the past by committing them today. Nor can you make up for grave moral evils today by committing another one. Race based selection of any kind is a grave moral evil. Again I am in favor of changing society. AA is not the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
add Posted May 6, 2011 Share Posted May 6, 2011 (edited) [quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1304640466' post='2237736'] Well, if you want to get really technical, what the US gov't is supposed to do for Native Americans is to pay them for the land that the US took from them. It makes me wonder why anyone would ever want to give the US anything, if that's the way they pay their debts. [/quote] one of the Onondaga carpenters i hired resented (HATED) being called "native American" , he figured America was a name picked by some obscure European map maker, he did not care for the term "Indian" either as he was not from India. this man was a Onondaga and proud of it. (i Envied his heritage, as a third generation American white person i don't really have any. ) technical the government did not get him work --------------- HE EARNED IT!----------------------- Edited May 6, 2011 by apparently Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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