Affirmative Action

[Archaeology cat]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1304698739' post='2237969']
Sorta. I guess what I'm saying is, assuming the country is not racist because we elected a black president is like saying that white people can't be racist just because they have black friends. I don't know how many times I've heard people say, "I'm not racist. I have a lot of black friends." Yet, if you ask those same people if they'd allow their daughter date a black man, they hesitate.

And also, yes, Obama is 1/2 white. So, technically, he's only 1/2 black enough.
[/quote]
I know what you mean.

[quote name='ParadiseFound' timestamp='1304699353' post='2237973']
Samuel L. Jackson for president, nao. xD

His campaign slogan would only have to be one word, beginning with 'm' and ending in 'r'. You know what it is.
[/quote]
I think I might need to re-watch that Chapelle sketch about the Sam Jackson.

[MithLuin]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1304700704' post='2237978']
[font="Verdana, sans-serif"][font="Arial"] It does not matter who you are or what color your skin is, if you chose to excel then you will excel no matter what. [/font][/font] [/quote]

This is the American dream. This is what we've told the immigrants and the poor for the past 200 years. It doesn't matter where you came from, just work hard here and now, and your kids will live the good life in this land of prosperity.

The thing is....there are groups of people in our country for whom this dream...isn't true.

Every new batch of immigrants is treated as less than those who are already here. They are mocked for not knowing the language, and it doesn't matter if they were a doctor back home, they'll be driving a cab or running a dry cleaning business here. Doesn't matter what your background is, you can find ancestors who were treated like scum. The 'No Irish Need Apply' signs, etc.

But, you know, they made it. They worked hard, sent their kids to the good schools, and then those kids grew up speaking English and worked as doctors and everything is forgiven. Society dealt with its issues and moved on to the newest green batch of immigrants to gang up on.

So, what's different about the blacks? Turned out that working hard didn't lead to excelling. They were denied entrance to schools, denied jobs. Didn't matter how hard they worked, they were told 'We don't want you, no thanks.' Generation...after generation...after generation. Any surprise that they might be a bit jaded about the whole American dream by this point?

Affirmative action is saying what you're saying, but adding, 'But no, really - we mean it this time!'


[quote][font="Verdana, sans-serif"][font="Arial"]Affirmative action does more harm than good to minorities. Asian and Jewish Americans are an example of this, where they have been victims of institutional racism [and continue to be victims of forms of racism and prejudice], but whom are harmed by affirmative action since it benefits largely black and Hispanic populations. This disproportionate effect is perverse and counter-productive considering that the intent of affirmative action is to eliminate discrimination.[/font] [/font] [/quote]

But why does it benefit blacks and hispanics rather than Asians? Is it because college admissions are flooded with applicants from Asian nations, so they are just as competitive (if not more so) than applications from white Americans? If you look at any graduate program at any college in the US....you are likely to find that Asians are far from underrepresented. They're [i]way[/i] over represented. I mean, good for them, but Affirmative Actions laws hardly apply in those situations!

If you're talking about gov't contractor scenarios, I was under the impression that any minority will do. So, a consulting engineering firm headed by an Indian (from India) female would certainly count towards any quotas or preferences written into the law. Please correct me if I am mistaken here.

[quote][font="Verdana, sans-serif"]
[font="Arial"]Affirm action wrongly considers race over economics and educational factors. Economic or educational disadvantages do not necessarily correlate to those of a particular racial/ethnic status. There are many examples of wealthy well educated black youths that have experienced every society advantage there is. There are also examples of white youths that have lived in economic and educational squaller. If it is economic and educational disadvantages that are the problem, why not focus in affirmative action on these criteria instead of race and ethnicity.[/font][/font]
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Because racial diversity is a goal in addition to economic and educational diversity, perhaps?

[quote][font="Verdana, sans-serif"][font="Arial"]Affirmative action mismatches bad students with difficult classes. By admitting minority students who are less qualified than their peers into more rigorous programs wherein they cannot keep up. UCLA School of Law professor Richard Sander wrote several papers on this occurring in both the law schools themselves and in law firms.[/font][/font]
[font="Verdana, sans-serif"] [/font][/quote]

Integration of the schools happened within the lifetimes of many people who are still alive today. To suggest that we've dealt with the issue is a bit naive (not that you have suggested any such thing). My point is that obviously, there are still a lot of problems. Yeah, it's tough to go from an inner city public school to the Ivy League. And if you want to do that...do you know how much extra work you are going to have to do? Let me give you a hint...the title of that book is "Hope in the Unseen" and the DC teen who found himself at Brown was in way over his head in some classes (not Calculus, which he aced his freshman year). But he graduated, and went on to get a graduate degree from Harvard's School of Education. Affirmative Action didn't make that happen. His mother, one of his high school teachers, his pastor, his Jewish sponsor who paid for all the extras, the WSJ journalist who followed him around and kept tabs on him (well, okay, maybe not that so much), the different programs available to get him experiences in high school that he wouldn't have had otherwise...etc....these are what helped him to beat all the odds.

Admitting minorities to the university is only a small part of the process. And yes, it's obvious there are different standards. A friend of mine (a white male) applied to MIT for computer engineering. He had good grades and good SATs (not near perfect in either category) but didn't get in...likely because of the bazillions of other white males interested in computer programming at MIT who were better qualified than he was. It is, after all, [i]highly[/i] competitive. He [i]did[/i] get into the computer engineering program at Carnegie Mellon, which was the #2 program on the east coast at the time. A classmate of mine (same high school) applied to MIT's business program. He got in, and went there. I know that his grades and SAT score were lower than the first guy. And, of course, he was black. Is that fair? Well, I think MIT's allowed to decide that they don't want a graduating class that consists solely of white males. They can accept whatever students they want to achieve a student body that will contribute to the 'college experience' of an MIT grad. That means that there will be females and minorities on campus. If the first guy had applied to the business program rather than the engineering program, maybe he would have gotten in. Who knows? Three students from my high school class (of 144) applied to Duke University. Only the valedictorian got in; the salutatorian did not. Is that fair? Would the salutatorian have been accepted had the valedictorian not applied? I mean, we're talking tenths of a point in GPA here. If the salutatorian had been a minority, would she have been accepted while the valedictorian (a Jewish male) was passed over? Since neither the valedictorian nor the salutatorian considered Duke a first choice, should Duke really have accepted the third student, who was not as strong a student, but really interested in attending the school? College admissions can be quite complicated, and you can still get in because your father went there or because your grandfather donated a million dollars to the school or because you are a star athlete. It's by no means a blind process based strictly on objective criteria of whether or not you are 'qualified.'


In the early 1970's, the Jesuits tried to admit inner city kids from Detroit to the University of Detroit in an attempt to 'level the playing field'. The goal was to get these kids degrees so they could then get jobs, and get out of poverty. But of course, they were not remotely prepared for college life. They let the kids major in sociology and pass and not get kicked out almost no matter what. Created [i]tons[/i] of racial tension on campus, and was probably not quite as successful an experiment as hoped.

In the 1990's, the Jesuits started a college prep high school in Chicago for (mostly Latino) inner city students. It was a model based on a work-study program, so the students worked to defray the cost of their own tuition, making private Catholic education affordable to poorer families even without scholarships. They now have college acceptance rates comparable to most other college prep high schools (98% or the like), but struggle with keeping their kids in college. The retention rate is higher than others from that socioeconomic background, but still lags the national average.

In my city, the Jesuits have an all boys middle school in the inner city that works hard to place students in college prep high schools.

I'd say the lesson is being learned. There's not an 'easy fix' to a pandemic. If you want poor people to get access to better jobs, they need better education, and that education has to start [i]young[/i], not at the college level. The models that fail are eventually discarded, and the ones that succeed find [i]plenty[/i] of funding. Everyone likes the idea of making the city a better place.

[quote][font="Verdana, sans-serif"][font="Arial"]Affirmative action lowers value of degrees earned by minorities. Affirmative action creates an impression or a concern that black individuals that earn a particular degree, do so with the help of affirmative action, rather than by their own merits. This diminishes the value that job-seekers and society place on these degrees, relative to ones earned by non-minorities who did not have the help of Affirmative Action.[/font][/font]
[/quote]

Precisely part of the problem. If someone sees that a black guy majored in African American studies, the assumption will be that he did no work in college and that his degree is worthless (or at the very least worth less than another person's from the same college). You don't have to be white to make this assumption; I've been told that Clarence Thomas won't hire people with that major for precisely that reason. There are 'persons of color' who refuse to check the race box on the SAT or college applications, knowing that they might be accepted to the school simply to up the diversity rather than because they are qualified. Such a person wants to get in on their own merit, not through a loophole. Affirmative action is not the goal. It's a stop-gap measure to deal with the problem of active racism in admissions and hiring practices -- even the unconscious racism of preferring an applicant because you recognize the names of the school he went to and the other companies he's worked for. After all, preferring what is 'known' and comfortable is very human; stepping out into the unknown is a bit of a risk, and who wants to take a risk when making hiring decisions?

I do not think Affirmative Action is the way to go, but I do think it important to have something in place to assure that racial minorities get a fair chance at access to education and jobs.

[dUSt]

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1304700704' post='2237978']
It does not matter who you are or what color your skin is, if you chose to excel then you will excel no matter what.
[/quote]
I don't think anyone here is saying otherwise.

My point though, is that in order for some people to "excel", they have to work 10x's harder than someone else. So what right? Everybody is born into different situations. That's life. Get over it.

For the most part, I agree. But... SOME of those underprivileged situations exist as a [b]direct result[/b] of unjust U.S. laws. Laws which have since been abolished, but still not corrected. All I'm saying is that we need to do a better job at correcting those unjust laws.

That is an important distinction to make when comparing blacks and native Americans with immigrants. Blacks and native Americans were forced into a situation condoned by our government. Immigrants, for the most part, chose to come here.

Some may feel we've already done enough, and that's fine. I guess I just see a lot more racism in my daily walk than you guys do.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1304718930' post='2238086']
I don't think anyone here is saying otherwise.

My point though, is that in order for some people to "excel", they have to work 10x's harder than someone else. So what right? Everybody is born into different situations. That's life. Get over it.

For the most part, I agree. But... SOME of those underprivileged situations exist as a [b]direct result[/b] of unjust U.S. laws. Laws which have since been abolished, but still not corrected. All I'm saying is that we need to do a better job at correcting those unjust laws.

That is an important distinction to make when comparing blacks and native Americans with immigrants. Blacks and native Americans were forced into a situation condoned by our government. Immigrants, for the most part, chose to come here.

Some may feel we've already done enough, and that's fine. I guess I just see a lot more racism in my daily walk than you guys do.
[/quote]


How do you see racism? Do you actually see people denied of promotions because of their race? Do you see people use inappropriate words that are intended to inflict pain on a certain group of people? Do you see people not hanging around certain groups of people because they are a different race?

Edited May 6, 2011 by infinitelord1

[Amppax]

[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1304719323' post='2238090']
How do you see racism? Do you actually see people denied of promotions because of their race? Do you see people use inappropriate words that are intended to inflict pain on a certain group of people? Do you see people not hanging around certain groups of people because they are a different race?
[/quote]

No (then again i'm a high school student, can't really weigh in on that effectively), Yes (a definite yes), and yes.

Edited May 6, 2011 by Amppax

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1304719467' post='2238094']
No (then again i'm a high school student, can't really weigh in on that effectively), Yes (a definite yes), and yes.
[/quote]


How can you prove that someone is not hanging around another person because of race? Are you sure its for that reason?

[MissScripture]

[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1304719323' post='2238090']
How do you see racism? Do you actually see people denied of promotions because of their race? Do you see people use inappropriate words that are intended to inflict pain on a certain group of people? Do you see people not hanging around certain groups of people because they are a different race?
[/quote]
I'm a white girl and I've definitely seen racism (not directed towards me, but from people I've been around towards others). Typically, people know it's not socially acceptable to be out and out a racist, so it's not necessarily something where people are going around calling other groups of people names (though that can happen, too). And most of the time, people aren't going to make it horribly obvious WHY they're doing something (such as not promoting someone, or not hanging around others). But I live in an area of low diversity and the racism is HUGE (though, the low diversity may be part of why it is huge). Where I grew up was an area of low diversity, but as the diversity grew, so did the expressions of racism. There were literally riots in the lunchrooms of some of the public schools, and at least one of the schools had to go into lockdown multiple times to deal with the fighting in the hallways. I graduated in 2005, so this isn't that long ago! But most of what I've seen is far more subtle. It's not straight out calling someone a name. It's treating them differently because of the group of people they come from. It's comments behind their back. It's people acting like they are better than another person, because of where they were born.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1304722091' post='2238110']
I'm a white girl and I've definitely seen racism (not directed towards me, but from people I've been around towards others). Typically, people know it's not socially acceptable to be out and out a racist, so it's not necessarily something where people are going around calling other groups of people names (though that can happen, too). And most of the time, people aren't going to make it horribly obvious WHY they're doing something (such as not promoting someone, or not hanging around others). But I live in an area of low diversity and the racism is HUGE (though, the low diversity may be part of why it is huge). Where I grew up was an area of low diversity, but as the diversity grew, so did the expressions of racism. There were literally riots in the lunchrooms of some of the public schools, and at least one of the schools had to go into lockdown multiple times to deal with the fighting in the hallways. I graduated in 2005, so this isn't that long ago! But most of what I've seen is far more subtle. It's not straight out calling someone a name. It's treating them differently because of the group of people they come from. It's comments behind their back. It's people acting like they are better than another person, because of where they were born.
[/quote]


So you were lead to believe that it was a racism issue because of words being used? This wasn't a matter of a i.e. white guy talking smack about a i.e. black guy? Because if thats all it is then you can't say it is racism. Unless of course there are certain words being used.

Also, are you saying its racism because all the black kids hang with each other while at the same time all the white kids hang with each other....and their isn't any diversity with in these clicks?

In this case, I think that you shouldn't start jumping to racism conclusions. You should just allow things to happen naturally and over time people will start mingling. I certainly don't think that by slinging racist accusations out there and by forcing people to intermingle is a very good solution. Or even making them feel like they have to hang out with someone of a different race etc. (or else they are racist). Just let it happen naturally. It will over time. These things can be related to differences in culture and people needing time to adjust.

Edited May 6, 2011 by infinitelord1

[Sternhauser]

[quote name='Amppax' timestamp='1304719467' post='2238094']
No (then again i'm a high school student, can't really weigh in on that effectively), Yes (a definite yes), and yes.
[/quote]

Too many people confusing race and culture. While often related, they are not the same.

~Sternhauser

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='Sternhauser' timestamp='1304722646' post='2238114']
Too many people confusing race and culture. While often related, they are not the same.

~Sternhauser
[/quote]


I agree with that.

[MissScripture]

[quote name='infinitelord1' timestamp='1304722596' post='2238113']
So you were lead to believe that it was a racism issue because of words being used? This wasn't a matter of a i.e. white guy talking smack about a i.e. black guy? Because if thats all it is then you can't say it is racism. Unless of course there are certain words being used.

Also, are you saying its racism because all the black kids hang with each other while at the same time all the white kids hang with each other....and their isn't any diversity with in these clicks?

In this case, I think that you shouldn't start jumping to racism conclusions. You should just allow things to happen naturally and over time people will start mingling. I certainly don't think that by slinging racist accusations out there and by forcing people to intermingle is a very good solution. Or even making them feel like they have to hang out with someone of a different race etc. (or else they are racist). Just let it happen naturally. It will over time. These things can be related to differences in culture and people needing time to adjust.
[/quote]
So, you think a whole group of people who just happen to have the same color of skin and coming from the same place being treated differently than a white person isn't racism? And it's not about "cliques" or people not "mingling." It's about people trying to KILL each other because they don't like the other group of people for being another skin color. I don't care if they don't want to be friends. I feel more comfortable with people of a similar background to me. I get it. Most people probably feel the same. But to beat the snot out of someone because of something they can't change (where they were born, what color their skin is) is a huge difference.

And it's not "talking smack" it's things like, "Well, you know, he IS from XYZ, what did you expect?"

If it's the case of ONE person who happens to be a different color being treated differently, that's one thing. If it's EVERY person who is that color being treated that way, and every person who is NOT that color being treated another way, THAT is racism. I've seen it happen.

[MithLuin]

There are often offensive racial comments made between the black and Hispanic students in my classroom. Obviously, I correct this behavior when I hear it. But I don't always hear it. Racial tensions between these groups in my city is not terrible, but certainly it's present.

Also, there are offensive comments made within a racial group that it would be hard to call racism. If a white student were to call a black student a monkey or a cockroach, it would be considered racist. When a black student calls another black student these things, it's...mean. They of course always claim to be friends and just joking.

Earlier this week, a black male student was running down a list of white objects to use as nicknames for a white girl, and didn't get to one she hadn't heard before until he said 'cocaine'. I think she had called him 'tar' to instigate this.

I can't think of any classroom I've taught in where I have heard [i]no[/i] racial slurs all year. Most of the time, they are jokes and do not instigate physical brawls. But not always.

I should point out that whites are a minority among the students at my school...but not the faculty. I've been the only white person in a classroom, but it's [i]my[/i] classroom, so that changes the dynamics. In the private schools I've worked in, the groups of friends tend to break down along racial lines (though there is some crossover). In the public schools in this area, things are much more fully integrated, in part because the schools are arranged on geographic boundaries...but only in part.

I've heard adults make comments that make it very clear that they are not comfortable around people of another race. I attended a funeral at a black church last week, and was hyper-aware that I was part of the very small niche of white people in attendance. I can generally get black and hispanic students to accept me as 'one of their own' enough to deal with the barriers that might be there, but I am under no illusion that this makes me....one of them.

And as long as there is this whole 'us and them' thing going on, race is going to be a BIG FREAKIN DEAL in this country.

[RezaMikhaeil]

Well since dust pretty much schooled all yall, I don't have much more to add. I will say that people often misinterpret "affirmative action" for the idea that if two men were applying for a job to be a doctor, one was white and one was black, they'd give it to the black man just because he was black, even if he didn't have the qualifications to be a doctor, that isn't true. First and foremost it has to do with qualifications, then and only then, does it go down to race. However, if the employer doesn't believe that the black individual is that interested in the job and is likely to leave the job, there is room for judgement calls.

When I lived in Bemidji MN, affirmative action helped Natives get much needed employment. Truth be told, they didn't have the best reputation due to problems having to do with the past. For the average Native that was a nice individual, the cards were stacked against them and they needed "just that one opportunity" to distinguish themselves as a great sincere, loyal worker with integrity.

There is no getting around the fact that blacks, latinos, middle easterners, and women have had a difficult time. However most of these laws were actually meant to primarily be imposed upon government jobs, not as much the private sector. When we talk about Jim Crow Laws, Racist Criminal Justice System, Segregated Bathrooms, those were government policies and government institutions, not private sector institutions and policies. I do believe that it's a fine line between telling a private business what to do and telling a government employer what to do. In the South, under Jim Crow Laws, racist individuals like Bull Conors used their government positions to prevent blacks from getting high paying government jobs, restricting them to private sector jobs. We do know that in the current racial climate that if it was legal for private businesses to discriminate, it would be the worst business decision ever and they'd go out of business, simple and plain. I more lean towards their right to do so for that reason. Many racists that are forced to remain in the closet, remain in business, I'd rather them have the right to be honest and put them out of business.

It's a sippery slope on both sides of the issue.

[quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1304535460' post='2236958']
That would be an incorrect conclusion. Abortion is murder. Laws against murder are perfectly permissible.
[/quote]

According to modern laws, that baby is not a human until it is outside of the womb, so it's not murder. Morally, religiously and scientifically, I disagree with the law, but the countries laws do not always reflect the position of the Church, nor Christians.

[Nihil Obstat]

[quote name='RezaMikhaeil' timestamp='1304725421' post='2238134']
According to modern laws, that baby is not a human until it is outside of the womb, so it's not murder. Morally, religiously and scientifically, I disagree with the law, but the countries laws do not always reflect the position of the Church, nor Christians.
[/quote]
I do not care even the tiniest bit what your legal books say.

[infinitelord1]

[quote name='MissScripture' timestamp='1304723065' post='2238120']
So, you think a whole group of people who just happen to have the same color of skin and coming from the same place being treated differently than a white person isn't racism? And it's not about "cliques" or people not "mingling." It's about people trying to KILL each other because they don't like the other group of people for being another skin color. I don't care if they don't want to be friends. I feel more comfortable with people of a similar background to me. I get it. Most people probably feel the same. But to beat the snot out of someone because of something they can't change (where they were born, what color their skin is) is a huge difference.

And it's not "talking smack" it's things like, "Well, you know, he IS from XYZ, what did you expect?"

If it's the case of ONE person who happens to be a different color being treated differently, that's one thing. If it's EVERY person who is that color being treated that way, and every person who is NOT that color being treated another way, THAT is racism. I've seen it happen.
[/quote]


I was just trying to get to the bottom of why you thought it was racism...now I understand. So it was a matter of the way people spoke that lead you to believe it was racism. And you have good reason to believe that.