KnightofChrist Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 [quote name='USAirwaysIHS' timestamp='1305430130' post='2241670'] Help me out here, tell me which is more fitting: -or- I figured you left because us plebians were too low-brow to understand the clear superiority of the EF mass. But hey, what do you expect out of us less gifted, cornpone imbeciles? [/quote] I know I said I wouldn't post again but I'm forced to point out the mockery of your post, which proves my point, thank you. But I also thank you for apologizing to Nihil, the way you and others treated him in this thread as well as others like it are prime examples of how Traditional minded Catholics are unjustly treated on PM over all. [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1305439947' post='2241772'] Excellent post. If I can be frank, and put this out in the open, I believe the frustration a lot of phatmassers have, myself included, is that we seem to make many posts like this, admitting guilt. I don't recall ever seeing a reply to any of these apologetic posts that admit any type of counter guilt, or counter apology (ie- see HCF's replies to your apology). Reconciliation is a two-way street. It's just really frustrating. It takes a lot for me to swallow my pride and admit I'm wrong and apologize. I struggle with it immensely. So, when I do make sincere admissions of guilt, or attempt to apologize, it is discouraging when it is met with additional arguments or denials of any wrong doing. At some point, people just give up and take it as a loss. That's what has happened with me and a few individuals, and now, sadly, with Nihil. Just trying to be as honest as I can. [/quote] I also feel it necessary to point out I see history different than you. I've seen many apologies from both sides and accepting of many apologies from both sides. Either way for any real injustice I've committed against the souls here I apologize yet again and except all apologies given to me or my friends. Also if one does apologize yet continues to make insulting statements or actions that apology doesn't mean much, or people say one thing but their actions are completely different and unfortunately I've seen a lot of that here as well. It does no good to apolgize to Traditional mind folk if the next day they will be the butt of jokes and insults like the apology either never happened or was just fake. In any event the last word belongs to you guys. God Bless
dominicansoul Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1305439947' post='2241772'] Excellent post. If I can be frank, and put this out in the open, I believe the frustration a lot of phatmassers have, myself included, is that we seem to make many posts like this, admitting guilt. I don't recall ever seeing a reply to any of these apologetic posts that admit any type of counter guilt, or counter apology (ie- see HCF's replies to your apology). Reconciliation is a two-way street. It's just really frustrating. It takes a lot for me to swallow my pride and admit I'm wrong and apologize. I struggle with it immensely. So, when I do make sincere admissions of guilt, or attempt to apologize, it is discouraging when it is met with additional arguments or denials of any wrong doing. At some point, people just give up and take it as a loss. That's what has happened with me and a few individuals, and now, sadly, with Nihil. Just trying to be as honest as I can. [/quote] For some, it is very difficult to admit they are wrong so, they will continue justifying their error to no end. Then, their next step is to embrace victimhood---a false type of martyrdom, elevating themselves for being persecuted for their point of view, when in actuality, it was rather not persecution for their opinion, but rather the frustration of others in reaction to their initial error. When dealing with these types, i too have found myself frustrated to the point of apologizing for my frustration. but i have found, rather than apologize to these types (cos, it may spark them to believe they were correct and guiltless, and this does their souls more harm than good,) i just pray for them, in the hopes that the grace of humility will 1-open their eyes to their error and wrongdoing and 2- move them to compunction and genuine confession and apology. ...some types take prayers and fasting, so lets do what we must to save souls... ...remember, our fight is not with certain individuals, but with the principalities of darkness that cloud minds and hearts...the very same demon that whispered prideful temptations to Eve is still around, and we must do what we can to fight him when he comes whispering amongst our friends...
Lil Red Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1305461178' post='2241800'] For some, it is very difficult to admit they are wrong so, they will continue justifying their error to no end. Then, their next step is to embrace victimhood---a false type of martyrdom, elevating themselves for being persecuted for their point of view, when in actuality, it was rather not persecution for their opinion, but rather the frustration of others in reaction to their initial error. When dealing with these types, i too have found myself frustrated to the point of apologizing for my frustration. but i have found, rather than apologize to these types (cos, it may spark them to believe they were correct and guiltless, and this does their souls more harm than good,) i just pray for them, in the hopes that the grace of humility will 1-open their eyes to their error and wrongdoing and 2- move them to compunction and genuine confession and apology. ...some types take prayers and fasting, so lets do what we must to save souls... ...remember, our fight is not with certain individuals, but with the principalities of darkness that cloud minds and hearts...the very same demon that whispered prideful temptations to Eve is still around, and we must do what we can to fight him when he comes whispering amongst our friends... [/quote] i you.
HisChildForever Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 [quote name='dUSt' timestamp='1305439947' post='2241772'] Excellent post. If I can be frank, and put this out in the open, I believe the frustration a lot of phatmassers have, myself included, is that we seem to make many posts like this, admitting guilt. I don't recall ever seeing a reply to any of these apologetic posts that admit any type of counter guilt, or counter apology (ie- see HCF's replies to your apology). Reconciliation is a two-way street. It's just really frustrating. It takes a lot for me to swallow my pride and admit I'm wrong and apologize. I struggle with it immensely. So, when I do make sincere admissions of guilt, or attempt to apologize, it is discouraging when it is met with additional arguments or denials of any wrong doing. At some point, people just give up and take it as a loss. That's what has happened with me and a few individuals, and now, sadly, with Nihil. Just trying to be as honest as I can. [/quote] I thought his apology was nice.
KnightofChrist Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 [quote name='dominicansoul' timestamp='1305461178' post='2241800'] For some, it is very difficult to admit they are wrong so, they will continue justifying their error to no end. Then, their next step is to embrace victimhood---a false type of martyrdom, elevating themselves for being persecuted for their point of view, when in actuality, it was rather not persecution for their opinion, but rather the frustration of others in reaction to their initial error. When dealing with these types, i too have found myself frustrated to the point of apologizing for my frustration. but i have found, rather than apologize to these types (cos, it may spark them to believe they were correct and guiltless, and this does their souls more harm than good,) i just pray for them, in the hopes that the grace of humility will 1-open their eyes to their error and wrongdoing and 2- move them to compunction and genuine confession and apology. ...some types take prayers and fasting, so lets do what we must to save souls... ...remember, our fight is not with certain individuals, but with the principalities of darkness that cloud minds and hearts...the very same demon that whispered prideful temptations to Eve is still around, and we must do what we can to fight him when he comes whispering amongst our friends... [/quote] Oh DS there you go again, unjustly judging the heart of your fellow man. Countless times in the past you've accused me as well as others of being prideful and pharisees but always hid it behind a fake niceness. Just as you have here. But with a new twist, apparently I and others are not allowed to point out the abuse against us or we will be abused, because I get the idea in your eyes we are influenced by demons and prideful like Satan himself. Whatever I'm done for real this time, but thanks for proving me correct though, I know you can't see that the cause though. Traditional minded Catholics are indeed abused here, there seen as a bunch of prideful pharisees possibly possessed by demons. God Bless DS. I pray God change your heart.
Winchester Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 There's probably some Protestants watching you people and laughing their butts off.
Archaeology cat Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 [quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1305428831' post='2241648'] here's my piddly two cents: I think quite a few of us here on phatmass have been to an EF Mass. i don't know about everyone else, but I have been several times. Yes, they were beautiful liturgies (not that I would know an abuse if it smacked me in the face). But honestly, if it was available in my city, I would probably not go every Sunday. I'd maybe go once a month. I like the OF when it is celebrated the way it should be. It's beautiful too. And I like knowing what's being said without looking at a translation. It doesn't make me less reverent, or less smart, or less gifted of an understanding of liturgy, that I want to go to the NO. I'm just Catholic, and the beauty is that I can go to the OF or the EF and just be with Jesus in the Eucharist. [/quote] I have never been to an EF Mass, though I'd like to go. I'd gotten the time wrong for the one at the Oratory when I went to Birmingham to see Blessed John Henry Newman's relics, and the ones available in my diocese aren't exactly easy for me to get to, considering I don't have a car. I'd be incredibly happy if all OF Masses were celebrated the way they should be. In fact, I don't know that I'd care about actually going to an EF Mass if all OF Masses were celebrated as they should. It's a bit frustrating. [quote name='BG45' timestamp='1305432812' post='2241741'] Oh church mergers...guaranteed to drive people to new depths of anger. I know my home parish I was received into the Church in was once the "italian" parish. Now it's sorta the one for half the city because one by one the other nearby parishes were shut down and merged into it, and some people actually drive further away on principle rather than attend the "favored" parish. So I think it's the same sort of situation as you're saying happened, people stop going rather than go a few more minutes at most! I personally don't see the problem...I can go to either parish in the town I'm in now with no problem. It's just that one is more conveniently placed to my apartment. Mass is Mass, no matter whose homily I enjoy more, or whose music I enjoy more. [/quote] Yep. My old priest describes Scousers as being tribal, and I think the description fits, from what I've seen. At the very least that's true in the Dingle and Toxteth (I used to live in the Dingle, with the parish being in Toxteth). If you don't know about [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxteth"]Toxteth[/url], you can see the Wiki page.
ACS67 Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 [quote]Then, their next step is to embrace victimhood---a false type of martyrdom, elevating themselves for being persecuted for their point of view, when in actuality, it was rather not persecution for their opinion, but rather the frustration of others in reaction to their initial error[/quote] I agree with DS on this. The level of "victimhood" that so-called "traditional" Catholics engulf themselves in is ridiculous and quite honestly insulting to real Christians who truly are being persecuted, like those in the Middle East at this very moment.
dUSt Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 [quote name='Winchester' timestamp='1305471711' post='2241831'] There's probably some Protestants watching you people and laughing their butts off. [/quote] And the reason why these types of discussions are not allowed at phatmass. Thanks for the reminder. Thread closed.
CatherineM Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 [quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1305468936' post='2241820'] Oh DS there you go again, unjustly judging the heart of your fellow man. [/quote] I'm sorry, but didn't you just call us bigots? I've been called unreverent and ungifted in my understanding of the literary. I haven't been apologized to.
cmotherofpirl Posted May 15, 2011 Posted May 15, 2011 [quote name='ACS67' timestamp='1305473870' post='2241849'] I agree with DS on this. The level of "victimhood" that so-called "traditional" Catholics engulf themselves in is ridiculous and quite honestly insulting to real Christians who truly are being persecuted, like those in the Middle East at this very moment. [/quote] Amen. If your feelings are hurt offer it up. If you hurt someone's feelings, apologize, offer it up. If you are prideful, offer it up. If you are acting like as arse, stop, and offer it up. If you judging people's motives or intentions, STOP, and offer it up. If you can't accept an apology, deal with it, go to confession, and OFFER IT UP. Seriously, this is not a testoserone party or a victimhood party or my marbles are better than your marbles party. We are the BODY OF CHRIST, ACT like it. 1 At that hour the disciples came to Jesus, saying: Who thinkest thou is the greater in the kingdom of heaven? 2 And Jesus calling unto him a little child, set him in the midst of them, 3 And said: Amen I say to you, unless you be converted, and become as little children, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven. 4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, he is the greater in the kingdom of heaven. 5 And he that shall receive one such little child in my name, receiveth me. 6 But he that shall scandalize one of these little ones that believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be drowned in the depth of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of scandals. For it must needs be that scandals come: but nevertheless woe to that man by whom the scandal cometh. 8 And if thy hand, or thy foot scandalize thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee. It is better for thee to go into life maimed or lame, than having two hands or two feet, to be cast into everlasting fire. 9 And if thy eye scandalize thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee. It is better for thee having one eye to enter into life, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. 10 See that you despise not one of these little ones: for I say to you, that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father who is in heaven. 11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost. 12 What think you? If a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them should go astray: doth he not leave the ninety-nine in the mountains, and go to seek that which is gone astray? 13 And if it so be that he find it: Amen I say to you, he rejoiceth more for that, than for the ninety-nine that went not astray. 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father, who is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. 15 But if thy brother shall offend against thee, go, and rebuke him between thee and him alone. If he shall hear thee, thou shalt gain thy brother. 16 And if he will not hear thee, take with thee one or two more: that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may stand. 17 And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. 18 Amen I say to you, whatsoever you shall bind upon earth, shall be bound also in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose upon earth, shall be loosed also in heaven. 19 Again I say to you, that if two of you shall consent upon earth, concerning any thing whatsoever they shall ask, it shall be done to them by my Father who is in heaven. 20 For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. 21 Then came Peter unto him and said: Lord, how often shall my brother offend against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? 22 Jesus saith to him: I say not to thee, till seven times; but till seventy times seven times. 23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened to a king, who would take an account of his servants. 24 And when he had begun to take the account, one was brought to him, that owed him ten thousand talents. 25 And as he had not wherewith to pay it, his lord commanded that he should be sold, and his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26 But that servant falling down, besought him, saying: Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 27 And the lord of that servant being moved with pity, let him go and forgave him the debt. 28 But when that servant was gone out, he found one of his fellow servants that owed him an hundred pence: and laying hold of him, throttled him, saying: Pay what thou owest. 29 And his fellow servant falling down, besought him, saying: Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he paid the debt. 31 Now his fellow servants seeing what was done, were very much grieved, and they came and told their lord all that was done. 32 Then his lord called him; and said to him: Thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all the debt, because thou besoughtest me: 33 Shouldst not thou then have had compassion also on thy fellow servant, even as I had compassion on thee? 34 And his lord being angry, delivered him to the torturers until he paid all the debt. 35 So also shall my heavenly Father do to you, if you forgive not every one his brother from your hearts.
Brother Adam Posted May 16, 2011 Posted May 16, 2011 I think this is the first time I have used my 'scholar powers' to post in a locked thread. The Holy Father, Pope Benedict is truly the pope of Christian Unity. That is shocking for many people to hear who believe he is on the extreme right of all things liturgical and religious. However, in his great love for Christians everywhere and desire to see those who love the extraordinary form remain in full communion with the Church or return to full communion he has allowed the wider use of a beautiful liturgy. It is a liturgy that those who are attentive to will find has the power to propel them deeply into communio and the heart of Jesus. Of a recent poll of seminarians 85% said they would prefer to be ordained according to the extraordinary form rite. That does not make the extraordinary form "better". To me that is like saying the EF is better than the Eastern Catholic divine liturgy. You are comparing apples to oranges. At its very core they are both valid Masses. Christ, who reigns as King over all, Savior of all men, condescends himself to the altar through his perpetual sacrifice so that we can be saved. The way in which the application of the OF form deformed the liturgy due to wide spread and lasting abuses, and the way in which the EF created burdens and became a stumbling block to full participation, both can draw something from the other. The EF and OF are mutually enriching. From Father Zulsdorf: [quote] For going on two decades now, I have been saying that – in the mind of Papa Ratzinger – there was an idea that, were an more organic, long-term, process of liturgical growth and renewal and revision to be rekindled, there would eventually emerge a tertium quid, a form of the Roman Rite which would reflect the reforms mandated by the Second Vatican Council and the Roman Rite as received from the Church’s experiences of prayer over the centuries. That didn’t happen with the Novus Ordo, because it was an artificial product assembled on a desk. But the two forms, older and newer, used side-by-side, would create a gravitational pull upon each other.[/quote] The goal, through all liturgy, is the glory of God. That is what I constantly have to draw my worship commission back to - this isn't about holding hands or using glass vessels because it is what we want or don't want. This is about giving glory to God. How does "Gift of Finest Wheat" give glory to God? Does it give greater glory to God than polyphony of Gregorian chant? How can we give the greatest glory to God we possibly can? Then, secondarily, how are we getting to heaven? How does the OF get us to heaven? How does the EF get us to heaven? How does all of the decisions we make about liturgy at our parish get us to heaven? Finally, caring for both our own soul, that of our family, and after giving the greatest glory to God, how are we getting our neighbor to heaven? Did the liturgical abuses in the OF keep our neighbor away because he missed the sacred encounter at Mass? Did the rudeness of those attending EF cause our neighbor to harden his heart. From the moment I came here as a Baptist until now, our goal is all the same. Who is God, what does He want of us, and how to we do it? In the end it's all about salvation. It's all about Jesus folks.
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