Religion From An Evolutionary Perspective

[Mr.Cat]

[quote][b]Handbook of Religion and Health[/b], page 72
"What about religious beliefs and behaviors of mental health professionals outside of the United States? Neeleman and King (1993) surveyed 231 psychiatrists at general and psychiatric hospitals in London, England. Religious background and belief were each assessed by 16 questions. Almost three-quarters (73%) of psychiatrists reported no religious affiliation (vs 38% of their patients), and 78% attend religious services less than once a month. Belief in God was more common among women than men psychiatrists (39% vs 19%). Interestingly 92% of these psychiatrists believed that religion and mental illness were connected and that religious issues should be addressed in treatment. Almost one-half (42%) of the psychiatrists believed that religiosity can lead to mental illness, and 58% never made referrals to clergy."[/quote]I think insanity is a harsh word, so is mental disorder, moreover being used by people unfamiliar with the supposed sciences that study and treat mental illness.

[xSilverPhinx]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1307511588' post='2251173']
It would still be a form of serious mental disorder.
[/quote]

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder"]Mental Disorders[/url] affect normal functioning. There could be an incidence of religious delusions in some disorders but if religious feelings and life are not listed in the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnostic_and_Statistical_Manual_of_Mental_Disorders"]latest DSM[/url] then it isn't officially considered to be a mental disorder.

IMO it looks like an interpretational framework and not a disorder.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1307512592' post='2251176']
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder"]Mental Disorders[/url] affect normal functioning. There could be an incidence of religious delusions in some disorders but if religious feelings and life are not listed in the [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diagnostic_and_Statistical_Manual_of_Mental_Disorders"]latest DSM[/url] then it isn't officially considered to be a mental disorder.

IMO it looks like an interpretational framework and not a disorder.
[/quote]

So if I believe in a 6ft rabbit named Harvey and I constantly talk to Harvey and I believe Harvey constantly guides my life and tells me what to do and I think Harvey has magic powers and saves me from dangers, and I think Harvey will take me away to a special place saving me from dying that is not a form of mental disorder?

You have really got to start being honest with atheism, if your going to claim to be any kind of atheist. Without God's existence Christianity is a collective mental disorder.

[xSilverPhinx]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1307512957' post='2251177']
So if I believe in a 6ft rabbit named Harvey and I constantly talk to Harvey and I believe Harvey constantly guides my life and tells me what to do and I think Harvey has magic powers and saves me from dangers, and I think Harvey will take me away to a special place saving me from dying that is not a form of mental disorder?

You have really got to start being honest with atheism, if your going to claim to be any kind of atheist. Without God's existence Christianity is a collective mental disorder.
[/quote]

I'm not a psychiatrist, and I'm certainly not going to tell people online who I don't know that they have a mental disorder for their interpretational view.

There are some disorders which have a higher correlation with weird religious beliefs, such as people who believe that they are god. Some hear (audible) voices that the believe are coming from god. These two examples which as far as I know are not shared by the majority of believers are indictative of something not normal going on in their brains.

Edit: typo

Edited June 8, 2011 by xSilverPhinx

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1307513579' post='2251180']
I'm not a psychiatrist, and I'm certainly not going to tell people online who I don't know that they have a mental disorder for their interpretational view.

There are some disorders which have a higher correlation with weird religious beliefs, such as people who believe that they are god. Some hear (audible) voices that the believe are coming from god. These two examples which as far as I know are not shared by the majority of believers are indictative of something not normal going on in their brains.

Edit: typo
[/quote]

You know I think from Devils Advocate point of arguement I argue a much more logical reality of what atheism is than you. I spend hours in front of the Blessed Sacrament praying for loved ones asking the Lord in the Eucharist to watch over my family to convert unbelievers to His Sacred Heart, along with all the other forms of worship I give Christ and all the things I do for Christ if He is in fact not real in all honesty I am suffering from a mental disorder. There's simply no way out of that logic. The same would however sad (thought sad is a construct so it to would be fake) for everyone that gave worship and seeks guidance from God.

[xSilverPhinx]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1307514258' post='2251182']
You know I think from Devils Advocate point of arguement I argue a much more logical reality of what atheism is than you. I spend hours in front of the Blessed Sacrament praying for loved ones asking the Lord in the Eucharist to watch over my family to convert unbelievers to His Sacred Heart, along with all the other forms of worship I give Christ and all the things I do for Christ if He is in fact not real in all honesty I am suffering from a mental disorder. There's simply no way out of that logic. The same would however sad (thought sad is a construct so it to would be fake) for everyone that gave worship and seeks guidance from God.
[/quote]

We're just going to have to agree to disagree. I lack a belief in gods but when it comes to the reasons why I don't believe, they're just beliefs, and I could be wrong. I don't know whether god exists or not. I reject the claims, which is different. I can't prove that you're wrong or even 100% dismiss what you see as evidence for god being real, because I don't know everything. If god is real to you, then he's real to you. Why are you even letting me who has no access to your experiences, say whether they're valid or not? I'm saying what [i]I[/i] believe, not what you should believe in order to be not mentally ill.

[xSilverPhinx]

Just to highlight the section from wiki:


[b]Intangible experiences[/b]
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious"]Religious[/url], [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality"]spiritual[/url], or [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transpersonal"]transpersonal[/url] experiences and beliefs are typically not defined as disordered, especially if widely shared, despite meeting many criteria of delusional or psychotic disorders.[sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder#cite_note-67"][1][/url][/sup][sup][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder#cite_note-68"][2][/url][/sup] Even when a belief or experience can be shown to produce distress or disability—the ordinary standard for judging mental disorders—the presence of a strong cultural basis for that belief, experience, or interpretation of experience, generally disqualifies it from counting as evidence of mental disorder.


[list=1][*][b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder#cite_ref-67"]^[/url][/b] Pierre JM (May 2001). [url="http://meta.wkhealth.com/pt/pt-core/template-journal/lwwgateway/media/landingpage.htm?issn=1527-4160&volume=7&issue=3&spage=163"]"Faith or delusion? At the crossroads of religion and psychosis"[/url]. [i]J Psychiatr Pract[/i] [b]7[/b] (3): 163–72. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier"]doi[/url]:[url="http://dx.doi.org/10.1097%2F00131746-200105000-00004"]10.1097/00131746-200105000-00004[/url]. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PubMed_Identifier"]PMID[/url] [url="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15990520"]15990520[/url].[*][b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_disorder#cite_ref-68"]^[/url][/b] Johnson CV, Friedman HL (2008). [url="http://jhp.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/48/4/505"]"Enlightened or Delusional? Differentiating Religious, Spiritual, and Transpersonal Experiences from Psychopathology"[/url]. [i]Journal of Humanistic Psychology[/i] [b]48[/b] (4): 505–27. [url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier"]doi[/url]:[url="http://dx.doi.org/10.1177%2F0022167808314174"]10.1177/0022167808314174[/url].[/list]

[stevil]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1307512957' post='2251177']
So if I believe in a 6ft rabbit named Harvey and I constantly talk to Harvey and I believe Harvey constantly guides my life and tells me what to do and I think Harvey has magic powers and saves me from dangers, and I think Harvey will take me away to a special place saving me from dying that is not a form of mental disorder?

You have really got to start being honest with atheism, if your going to claim to be any kind of atheist. Without God's existence Christianity is a collective mental disorder.
[/quote]
Loved this post, very funny.

[stevil]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1307514258' post='2251182']
if He is in fact not real in all honesty I am suffering from a mental disorder. There's simply no way out of that logic.[/quote]
I don't agree with this. Theology is very elaborate and intricate, it is taught by many around the world, substantiated by cultural holidays, old churches, old paintings, substantiated by your peers, your elders, there are many reasons other than mental illness as to how you can believe without having proof or evidence to support your belief.
the vast majority of people once thought the world was flat, that didn't mean they were all mentally ill, just ignorant and misinformed

Edited June 8, 2011 by stevil

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1307514995' post='2251184']
We're just going to have to agree to disagree. I lack a belief in gods but when it comes to the reasons why I don't believe, they're just beliefs, and I could be wrong. I don't know whether god exists or not. I reject the claims, which is different. I can't prove that you're wrong or even 100% dismiss what you see as evidence for god being real, because I don't know everything. If god is real to you, then he's real to you. Why are you even letting me who has no access to your experiences, say whether they're valid or not? I'm saying what [i]I[/i] believe, not what you should believe in order to be not mentally ill.
[/quote]

We will I agree with the would be reality and you disagree with that would be reality, as well as reality. God is real with or without your opinion or belief in Him. He is real with or without my belief in Him.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='stevil' timestamp='1307530261' post='2251195']
I don't agree with this. Theology is very elaborate and intricate, it is taught by many around the world, substantiated by cultural holidays, old churches, old paintings, substantiated by your peers, your elders, there are many reasons other than mental illness as to how you can believe without having proof or evidence to support your belief.
the vast majority of people once thought the world was flat, that didn't mean they were all mentally ill, just ignorant and misinformed
[/quote]

I don't believe you're being logical at all. But since you are a angotic atheist such a illogical conclusion is understandable being you doubt your own doubt. Still again it would be the same as if if believe in a 6ft rabbit named Harvey and I constantly talk to Harvey and I believe Harvey constantly guides my life and tells me what to do and I think Harvey has magic powers and saves me from dangers, and I think Harvey will take me away to a special place saving me from dying. It would a of mental disorder, no matter how many people followed Harvey and believed in him it would be a mental disorder for people to be so devoted to an non-existence character.

[xSilverPhinx]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1307540898' post='2251232']
I don't believe you're being logical at all. But since you are a angotic atheist such a illogical conclusion is understandable being you doubt your own doubt. Still again it would be the same as if if believe in a 6ft rabbit named Harvey and I constantly talk to Harvey and I believe Harvey constantly guides my life and tells me what to do and I think Harvey has magic powers and saves me from dangers, and I think Harvey will take me away to a special place saving me from dying. It would a of mental disorder, no matter how many people followed Harvey and believed in him it would be a mental disorder for people to be so devoted to an non-existence character.
[/quote]

Once again you're applying the words 'mental disorder' to something that nobdy here is calling a mental disorder.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1307550150' post='2251281']
Once again you're applying the words 'mental disorder' to something that nobdy here is calling a mental disorder.
[/quote]

That matters not, I merely point out the would be reality if God does not exist.

[xSilverPhinx]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1307550248' post='2251282']
That matters not, I merely point out the would be reality if God does not exist.
[/quote]

I don't know for sure if god doesn't exist, so I can't say.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1307550389' post='2251283']
I don't know for sure if god doesn't exist, so I can't say.
[/quote]

You sound much more like an agnostic than an atheist. Even by you singular definition of atheism (negative atheism) you're not an atheist.

[xSilverPhinx]

[quote name='KnightofChrist' timestamp='1307551277' post='2251288']
You sound much more like an agnostic than an atheist. Even by you singular definition of atheism (negative atheism) you're not an atheist.
[/quote]

I would call myself an agnostic atheist with ignostic beliefs.

I don't know if god exists, but I don't believe in any gods. However, depending on how you define 'god' I'd disagree or agree, though I wouldn't call what you're defining 'god' but some other word.

[Mr.Cat]

[quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1307492804' post='2251076']


I reject the claims of theists for my own reasons, but not the possibility of a god because if there is one, I don't know it in the first place.

You really can't be angry at or frustrated with something you don't believe in.

But I guess there are a lot of people somewhere between full atheism and agnostic theism that could actually be angry at some form of god.[/quote][quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1307550389' post='2251283']I don't know for sure if god doesn't exist, so I can't say.[/quote]I am sorry, some religious prefer to think of people as agnostics or being deceptive about disbelief, it comforts them somehow. You already admitted you lack theistic beliefs and reject theism, which makes you an atheist, by no means does expressing doubt or uncertainty somehow change that. Unfortunately for those who have conditioned themselves into not thinking, they can't seem to make such realizations.

Even Richard Dawkins has suggested that he is not absolutely certain and that his frustration is focused more at religiosity than belief.

[KnightofChrist]

[quote name='xSilverPhinx' timestamp='1307552612' post='2251296']
I would call myself an agnostic atheist with ignostic beliefs.

I don't know if god exists, but I don't believe in any gods. However, depending on how you define 'god' I'd disagree or agree, though I wouldn't call what you're defining 'god' but some other word.
[/quote]

Outside your personal opinion, that's Agnosticism. You are not an atheist. An Agnostic doesn't know and doesn't believe.

Also I don't believe in Peter Pan but I don't purposefully underscore his name because I don't believe he exists. I mean a mistake is one thing but to purposely is just silly.

[Mr.Cat]

Agnosticism can generally be atheistic, apathetic, or theistic. He seems to be between atheistic and apathetic agnosticism, which still makes him an atheist since he lacks theism and rejects theistic beliefs.

[xSilverPhinx]

[quote name='Mr.CatholicCat' timestamp='1307553080' post='2251297']
I am sorry, some religious prefer to think of people as agnostics or being deceptive about disbelief, it comforts them somehow. You already admitted you lack theistic beliefs and reject theism, which makes you an atheist, by no means does expressing doubt or uncertainty somehow change that. Unfortunately for those who have conditioned themselves into not thinking, they can't seem to make such realizations.

Even Richard Dawkins has suggested that he is not absolutely certain and that his frustration is focused more at religiosity than belief.
[/quote]

Even Dawkins rates himself as a 6 on his scale that goes from 1 (knows god exists) to 7 (knows that god doesn't exist). He would be an agnostic atheist.

I would place myself at 6 also, meaning doesn't know if god doesn't exist, but doesn't believe in any gods.

Knight of Christ, agnosticism is about knowledge (gnosis='knowledge in Greek) while atheism is about belief. You can be an agnostic atheist.

In fact, most atheists are also agnostic, those who outright say that gods don't exist are rare. One can't be intellectually honest and make that definite claim without conclusive proof, which IMO is impossible.