Let's Begin At The Very Beginning...

May 19, 2011

Hello everyone.

I've felt drawn towards the religious life ever since I was a little girl (since I met my first sister, aged nine) but until recently I wasn't in a position to do anything about the feeling. I visited a Carmelite monastery during my undergraduate years at university (Quidenham, Faithcecelia's old haunt!) and was quite scared by the affinity I felt for that life. Until then I had always assumed that I would be an active sister, and I told God darkly that he had another thing coming if he thought he was getting me behind four walls. I did keep researching, though, and within a couple of months I had found the Carmel of Golders Green. I told God then that if the feeling hadn't gone away by the time I graduated, I would contact those nuns.

A combination of heavy caring responsibilities for a very sick friend (closer than an average friend - our circumstances mean that we've been more like biological sisters) and serious health problems of my own meant that the possibility of monastic life receded. I was secretly relieved by this. I knew that I was unlikely to recover fully from my illness: all the medical staff involved in my care told me that relapse is common, although reprieve is not. I assumed that this meant I was forever disqualifed from religious life. Then I, err, got better. That was unexpected. :blink: I was supposed to say a bit unwell - not unwell enough to have serious problems and have restrictions on the things I wanted to do in life, but unwell enough to avoid this issue!

I celebrated my recovery by taking a job as a peace worker with a Catholic charity in Palestine/Israel. Being here has deepened my understanding of prayer's power and its significance for our lives. When I'm doing something difficult or tense (such as negotiating with the Israeli soldiers) I become very aware of all the people in the world whose hidden prayers are making it possible for the interaction to be peaceful and fruitful. I can feel how we all fit together in God's beautiful creation and his work of redemption. Previously I think I wanted to join an active order to hedge my bets - just in case prayer doesn't really work, you know. Being here has shown me that it's the most important thing we have. If I have a contemplative vocation, I'm ready to test it.

I have a short list of communities to contact, although privately I think I'm unlikely to get beyond the first one. And it's a very short list - there are only two communities on there!

[url="http://www.carmelnuns.org.uk/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=11"]Golders Green/Preston Carmel[/url]. Faith tells me that the two are amalgamating. It's quite an extraordinary coincidence, as Golders Green is the Carmel that attracted me originally, and Preston is my hometown. Its Carmel is built within sight of the hospital where my much-loved grandma died, and consequently the nuns regard it as their special duty to pray for the sick. I am touched by that.

[url="http://www.walsinghamcommunity.org/"]Community of Our Lady of Walsingham[/url]. This is a contemplative but non-enclosed community whose principal mission is retreat work, evangelism, and the promotion of vocations. Their spirituality is Carmelite. I have met the founding sisters; I liked them very much. The shrine at Walsingham also has a special place in my heart - I go there whenever I can.

I know that in the old days, it wasn't the norm for people to look over a large geographical area for communities; they tended to go somewhere close to home. Sometimes I wonder if this simple way wasn't best, as otherwise people get sidetracked and bewildered by the myriad options and the search for the 'perfect' fit. It becomes a distraction. I've had enough of distractions now. I think the time has come to be direct. Please pray for me.

May 19, 2011

I well understand the discussions with God about what his plan should be! When i went to my first come and see (incidentally with COLW!) I thought that once I had been and seen then God would know that it wasn't what he wanted for me!! In the end the complete opposite happened, and from tentatively visiting an active community hoping I wouldn't like it I soon found myself drawn into enclosure and being 'alone with the Alone'

I can't remember if I actually told you this or if you know or whatever, but Golders Green are currently living at Preston, still technically 2 Carmels while they discern the best way to move forwards (as I said to you the other day, its actually things like grilles, customs etc that is causing the delay). If you do still feel drawn to GG, then why not arrange to visit once you are home? You would have the experience and prayers of TWO prioresses at the moment!!

COLW are a lovely community, and I know they were disappointed when I decided to go to Quidenham rather than go to them as we had become good friends. They did, however, support me and actually visited me a couple of times at Q. Their Servant is, I must say, very much the dominant figure there (as usually happens with a new foundress) and I have at times found her a bit much for me - I love her dearly as a person but I do think I would have struggled living with her and having her as my formator. They are a very busy little community and often need to adjust their horarium depending on where they are and what guests they have, this was something i would have struggled with too as I need rhythm and order to my life - i find structure freeing if that makes sense. They are wonderful though, and i also know their current postulant (maybe novice now?) from my old parish.

I for one am extremely happy that you are well now and I am sure God helped you through that for a special reason :like: You are ALWAYS in my prayers :nunpray:

May 19, 2011

[quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1305794617' post='2243529']
I well understand the discussions with God about what his plan should be! When i went to my first come and see (incidentally with COLW!) I thought that once I had been and seen then God would know that it wasn't what he wanted for me!! In the end the complete opposite happened, and from tentatively visiting an active community hoping I wouldn't like it I soon found myself drawn into enclosure and being 'alone with the Alone'

I can't remember if I actually told you this or if you know or whatever, but Golders Green are currently living at Preston, still technically 2 Carmels while they discern the best way to move forwards (as I said to you the other day, its actually things like grilles, customs etc that is causing the delay). If you do still feel drawn to GG, then why not arrange to visit once you are home? You would have the experience and prayers of TWO prioresses at the moment!!

COLW are a lovely community, and I know they were disappointed when I decided to go to Quidenham rather than go to them as we had become good friends. They did, however, support me and actually visited me a couple of times at Q. [b]Their Servant is, I must say, very much the dominant figure there (as usually happens with a new foundress) and I have at times found her a bit much for me - I love her dearly as a person but I do think I would have struggled living with her and having her as my formator.[/b] They are a very busy little community and often need to adjust their horarium depending on where they are and what guests they have, this was something i would have struggled with too as I need rhythm and order to my life - i find structure freeing if that makes sense. They are wonderful though, and i also know their current postulant (maybe novice now?) from my old parish.

I for one am extremely happy that you are well now and I am sure God helped you through that for a special reason :like: You are ALWAYS in my prayers :nunpray:
[/quote]

That's not only the case with this order. My friend, earlier in her discernment, before she entered the Carmelites of the Divine Heart of Jesus, visited a new order out in Steubenville, OH. She related to me that she felt the foundress was pressuring her to join even though she didn't feel called. Never a good sign. She said she loved the order, but felt she needed to discern more, but she stayed friends with the Sisters and visited them again just for retreats.

I think some formators are a little too hasty to find applicants. The order I previously applied to handed me the application for entrance right after my first visit. The novice mistress even asked me during the retreat when I would like to enter. I wished I had waited and thought about it some more. I discovered the apostolate--working with abused and developmentally disabled children--was not the apostolate for me.

May 19, 2011

If Golder's Green Carmel are still at Preston, they probably won't be moving any time soon. They actually closed down and moved to Preston while I was still at Wolverhampton in 2008 - that's three years ago! Wolverhampton managed to 'inherit' some of their furniture including a lovely statue of St Teresa of Avila, which we repainted and put in the foyer of the chapel.

I thought GG were supposed to go join up with another Carmel (not Preston) and that Preston was just a stop along the way while this other Carmel found a suitable monastery for the two communities (they had sold theirs). I can't remember the name of this other Carmel but it would be whichever one sold their monastery off!

If you're still looking for a Carmel, check out Wolverhampton - they are lovely.

May 19, 2011

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1305798845' post='2243539']

I thought GG were supposed to go join up with another Carmel (not Preston) and that Preston was just a stop along the way while this other Carmel found a suitable monastery for the two communities (they had sold theirs). I can't remember the name of this other Carmel but it would be whichever one sold their monastery off!

[/quote]

I *think* Up Holland may be the 3rd, they were definately talking of a 3 way amalgamation last I heard.

May 19, 2011

well, hello! Glad you are joining us! Hopefully you will find the VS community helpful while you discern (I have!)- lots of people entering, in the first stages of discernment, and even some religious who pop in to keep us on track

Prayers and best of luck!

May 19, 2011

Thank you all for the warm kind-hearted welcome.

Faith, I met the founding sisters of COLW a few years ago, and I've kept running into them since at Youth 2000 events. I see what you mean. I think it would be hard for any superior to prevent her personality from becoming dominant when the community is so small, especially if she is a naturally charismatic and lively person. Every new community probably has this difficulty to some degree. I may go to one of their Come and See events, principally because of my devotion to Our Lady of Walsingham, but in my heart of hearts I think it will be the cloister for me if it's anywhere.

MaterMisericordiae, I think the situation with COLW is different from the one you describe - having chatted with the COLW sisters about vocation before, I can say that they made no attempt to pressure me. Instead they asked very thoughtful sensitive questions about what made me think I had a vocation, what my prayer life was like, etc. I mentioned my fear of the cloister, and the prioress/community servant explicitly said to me, "You must go where you feel called. If God wants you to be a Poor Clare, you will be happy as a Poor Clare." Helping people to find their vocation in life is a big part of their community's mission, so it goes against their principles to exert undue pressure for people to join them - they run a vocations group that sees people getting married, becoming contemplative nuns, joining active orders, everything! Life in a small new community is not for everyone, obviously, but I wouldn't want people to be put off approaching COLW for fear that they will be pushed into applying.

Nunsense, Golders Green will be my initial point of contact, as they were the community that appealed to me the most strongly when I started looking six years ago. I am just going to concentrate on one monastery for now, and I will look elsewhere if that need arises.

Prayers and love to you all.

May 19, 2011

[quote name='beatitude' timestamp='1305819087' post='2243593']
Thank you all for the warm kind-hearted welcome.

Faith, I met the founding sisters of COLW a few years ago, and I've kept running into them since at Youth 2000 events. I see what you mean. I think it would be hard for any superior to prevent her personality from becoming dominant when the community is so small, especially if she is a naturally charismatic and lively person. Every new community probably has this difficulty to some degree. I may go to one of their Come and See events, principally because of my devotion to Our Lady of Walsingham, but in my heart of hearts I think it will be the cloister for me if it's anywhere.

MaterMisericordiae, I think the situation with COLW is different from the one you describe - having chatted with the COLW sisters about vocation before, I can say that they made no attempt to pressure me. Instead they asked very thoughtful sensitive questions about what made me think I had a vocation, what my prayer life was like, etc. I mentioned my fear of the cloister, and the prioress/community servant explicitly said to me, "You must go where you feel called. If God wants you to be a Poor Clare, you will be happy as a Poor Clare." Helping people to find their vocation in life is a big part of their community's mission, so it goes against their principles to exert undue pressure for people to join them - they run a vocations group that sees people getting married, becoming contemplative nuns, joining active orders, everything! Life in a small new community is not for everyone, obviously, but I wouldn't want people to be put off approaching COLW for fear that they will be pushed into applying.

Nunsense, Golders Green will be my initial point of contact, as they were the community that appealed to me the most strongly when I started looking six years ago. I am just going to concentrate on one monastery for now, and I will look elsewhere if that need arises.

Prayers and love to you all.
[/quote]

Yes, COLW is different from others in that there is no pressure to enter there, they are extremely supportive whatever your vocation as their charism is to support vocation in all its forms. Also the foundress has experienced the early zeal, high entry numbers and poor formation in a new community first hand and is determined COLW will be different - she actually prays for one new entrant a year, so formation can be slow, steady and personal. What I found was personal questioning and individual pressure, if that makes sense? Which I think comes from her genuine concern for each person but can be a tad OTT.

i would definately recommend their come and sees, if only because Abbotswick is absolutely beautiful (and just round the corner from where I used to work!!) as is Brentwood Cathedral where they go for Sunday Mass. They also have insider info on communities which can aid discernment.

May 19, 2011

[quote name='beatitude' timestamp='1305819087' post='2243593']
Thank you all for the warm kind-hearted welcome.

Faith, I met the founding sisters of COLW a few years ago, and I've kept running into them since at Youth 2000 events. I see what you mean. I think it would be hard for any superior to prevent her personality from becoming dominant when the community is so small, especially if she is a naturally charismatic and lively person. Every new community probably has this difficulty to some degree. I may go to one of their Come and See events, principally because of my devotion to Our Lady of Walsingham, but in my heart of hearts I think it will be the cloister for me if it's anywhere.
[b]
MaterMisericordiae, I think the situation with COLW is different from the one you describe - having chatted with the COLW sisters about vocation before, I can say that they made no attempt to pressure me. Instead they asked very thoughtful sensitive questions about what made me think I had a vocation, what my prayer life was like, etc. I mentioned my fear of the cloister, and the prioress/community servant explicitly said to me, "You must go where you feel called. If God wants you to be a Poor Clare, you will be happy as a Poor Clare." Helping people to find their vocation in life is a big part of their community's mission, so it goes against their principles to exert undue pressure for people to join them - they run a vocations group that sees people getting married, becoming contemplative nuns, joining active orders, everything! Life in a small new community is not for everyone, obviously, but I wouldn't want people to be put off approaching COLW for fear that they will be pushed into applying.[/b]

Nunsense, Golders Green will be my initial point of contact, as they were the community that appealed to me the most strongly when I started looking six years ago. I am just going to concentrate on one monastery for now, and I will look elsewhere if that need arises.

Prayers and love to you all.
[/quote]

I'm glad to hear it. I worry about those communities that put undue pressure on those discerning. It's not healthy at all. I'm glad to hear that wasn't the case.

May 20, 2011

[quote name='beatitude' timestamp='1305819087' post='2243593']
Thank you all for the warm kind-hearted welcome.

Faith, I met the founding sisters of COLW a few years ago, and I've kept running into them since at Youth 2000 events. I see what you mean. I think it would be hard for any superior to prevent her personality from becoming dominant when the community is so small, especially if she is a naturally charismatic and lively person. Every new community probably has this difficulty to some degree. I may go to one of their Come and See events, principally because of my devotion to Our Lady of Walsingham, but in my heart of hearts I think it will be the cloister for me if it's anywhere.

MaterMisericordiae, I think the situation with COLW is different from the one you describe - having chatted with the COLW sisters about vocation before, I can say that they made no attempt to pressure me. Instead they asked very thoughtful sensitive questions about what made me think I had a vocation, what my prayer life was like, etc. I mentioned my fear of the cloister, and the prioress/community servant explicitly said to me, "You must go where you feel called. If God wants you to be a Poor Clare, you will be happy as a Poor Clare." Helping people to find their vocation in life is a big part of their community's mission, so it goes against their principles to exert undue pressure for people to join them - they run a vocations group that sees people getting married, becoming contemplative nuns, joining active orders, everything! Life in a small new community is not for everyone, obviously, but I wouldn't want people to be put off approaching COLW for fear that they will be pushed into applying.

Nunsense, Golders Green will be my initial point of contact, as they were the community that appealed to me the most strongly when I started looking six years ago. I am just going to concentrate on one monastery for now, and I will look elsewhere if that need arises.

Prayers and love to you all.
[/quote]

The Golders Green website is now Preston.

Go to:

[url="http://www.carmelnuns.org.uk/index.php?module=pagemaster&PAGE_user_op=view_page&PAGE_id=13&MMN_position=17:17"]http://www.carmelnun..._position=17:17[/url]

...and click on "Golders Green":

[url="http://www.carmelnuns.org.uk/preston/index.html"]http://www.carmelnun...ston/index.html[/url]

Lovely grounds and buildings. Upholland also has lovely grounds. I wonder how they are going to combine?

Edited May 20, 2011 by Yaatee

May 20, 2011

I know they're now using Preston's website. Before I was talking about their old personal site, which was at http://www.ocdbvm.org.uk. Parts of it are [url="http://web.archive.org/web/20060907043756/http://www.ocdbvm.org.uk/"]still accessible[/url] through the WayBack Machine. It's worth a look, especially the beautiful page on prayer.

They are already sharing a monastery with Preston and have been for about four years. As Faith wrote, now they are working on how to join together smoothly, as they have different customs and interpretations of Carmel. The physical aspect of the amalgamation already seems to have been taken care of. As we don't know exactly what their plans are, I think it's unhelpful to speculate too much - I will give more info when I've been in contact with them. I'm sending a letter this week.

May 20, 2011

The Carmels of Golders Green, Langham and Darlington, have closed.

For an up-to-date list of all the womens contemplative convents in the UK. Please visit:
[url="http://cloisters.tripod.com/vocations_uk/"]http://cloisters.tripod.com/vocations_uk/[/url]

PAX †
StudiumEcclesiae

May 20, 2011

[quote name='Studiumecclesiae' timestamp='1305904105' post='2243850']
The Carmels of Golders Green, Langham and Darlington, have closed.

For an up-to-date list of all the womens contemplative convents in the UK. Please visit:
[url="http://cloisters.tripod.com/vocations_uk/"]http://cloisters.tri...m/vocations_uk/[/url]

PAX †
StudiumEcclesiae
[/quote]

Golders Green still exist as their own, independant community. They are now living at Preston Carmel but are their own seperate community at present. No amalgamation has actually taken place yet.

May 20, 2011

beatitude - you have my prayers. God bless you and guide you! [img]http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/public/style_emoticons/default/nunpray.gif[/img]

May 20, 2011

Darlington Carmel hasn't closed. The nuns have just moved into a smaller monastery, as the upkeep of their old one was getting too much for them. They were offered the opportunity to disperse between other Carmels, or to amalgamate, but they were quite clear that they wanted to remain in Darlington. They are on Cleveland Avenue now. The story of their move is available [url="http://www.carmelite.org/index.php?nuc=news&func=view&item=291"]here[/url].

The [url="http://www.carmelnuns.org.uk/"]official website[/url] of the Carmelite nuns in Britain shows that the Golders Green nuns are sharing a monastery with the Preston sisters whilst retaining their own identity as the Community of the Holy Family. I stumbled on a blog post about Darlington's supposed closure several weeks ago, written by the lady who maintains that Cloister Outreach site, and it made me feel a little cross - what if somebody living in North East England comes across it and goes away thinking that Darlington Carmel really has closed? The best source of information on British Carmels are the British Carmels themselves. I don't think it's good to take community news from anyone other than the sisters in the community, just for reliability's sake.

Edited May 20, 2011 by beatitude

May 20, 2011

[quote name='beatitude' timestamp='1305909004' post='2243865']
Darlington Carmel hasn't closed. The nuns have just moved into a smaller monastery, as the upkeep of their old one was getting too much for them. They were offered the opportunity to disperse between other Carmels, or to amalgamate, but they were quite clear that they wanted to remain in Darlington. They are on Cleveland Avenue now. The story of their move is available [url="http://www.carmelite.org/index.php?nuc=news&func=view&item=291"]here[/url].

The [url="http://www.carmelnuns.org.uk/"]official website[/url] of the Carmelite nuns in Britain shows that the Golders Green nuns are sharing a monastery with the Preston sisters whilst retaining their own identity as the Community of the Holy Family. I stumbled on a blog post about Darlington's supposed closure several weeks ago, written by the lady who maintains that Cloister Outreach site, and it made me feel a little cross - what if somebody living in North East England comes across it and goes away thinking that Darlington Carmel really has closed? The best source of information on British Carmels are the British Carmels themselves. I don't think it's good to take community news from anyone other than the sisters in the community, just for reliability's sake.
[/quote]

Thanks for this clarification, I was 99% sure that was the case with Darlington but had not had the chance to look into it further. I do feel slightly unsettled by the amount of statements being made on here that are inaccurate and could potentially lead aspirants to believe the community they feel drawn to no longer exists.

May 20, 2011

[quote name='faithcecelia' timestamp='1305910863' post='2243875']
Thanks for this clarification, I was 99% sure that was the case with Darlington but had not had the chance to look into it further. I do feel slightly unsettled by the amount of statements being made on here that are inaccurate and could potentially lead aspirants to believe the community they feel drawn to no longer exists.
[/quote]

I hope that the British Carmels [i]will [/i]provide up-to-date information to any and all inquirers, of their or other carmels in the UK, keep their websites up to date or develop them, and answer all inquiries in a timely fashion. I have been surprised at the posts in the recent communications thread on VS about the difficulties in communicating with religious communities.

May 20, 2011

[quote name='beatitude' timestamp='1305909004' post='2243865']
Darlington Carmel hasn't closed. The nuns have just moved into a smaller monastery, as the upkeep of their old one was getting too much for them. They were offered the opportunity to disperse between other Carmels, or to amalgamate, but they were quite clear that they wanted to remain in Darlington. They are on Cleveland Avenue now. The story of their move is available [url="http://www.carmelite.org/index.php?nuc=news&func=view&item=291"]here[/url].

The [url="http://www.carmelnuns.org.uk/"]official website[/url] of the Carmelite nuns in Britain shows that the Golders Green nuns are sharing a monastery with the Preston sisters whilst retaining their own identity as the Community of the Holy Family. I stumbled on a blog post about Darlington's supposed closure several weeks ago, written by the lady who maintains that Cloister Outreach site, and it made me feel a little cross - what if somebody living in North East England comes across it and goes away thinking that Darlington Carmel really has closed? The best source of information on British Carmels are the British Carmels themselves. I don't think it's good to take community news from anyone other than the sisters in the community, just for reliability's sake.
[/quote]

Perhaps it would be more charitable not to personalize this discussion? I'm sure that everyone who posts here does so in good faith with the information that they have at the time. Since Darlington Carmel has moved to smaller accommodation and is no longer taking applicants (from a first hand source), they are in effect 'closing down' over time. When the last nun has gone to her reward, there will be no more Darlington Carmel, so I think that poster was correct. Perhaps there are ways to say these things that sound less harsh, but the fact is that most of the English Carmels are in serious trouble with vocations, and it will be necessary for several of them to merge (or amalgamate if that is a preferred term) if they are going to continue. A convent of two or three elderly nuns is facing great difficulties, and when they stop taking applicants, well, the end is inevitable.

As for the best source of information being the British Carmels themselves... not so. The UK Carmel site hasn't been updated in a long time. If you look at the Wolverhampton photo album, you will see yours truly - me - as a postulant there. I took those photos one day in the garden (another sister took the ones with me in them) with my own camera in 2007 and I had no idea that they would end up on that site (no one asked my permission). Four years later, my photos are still there, and I have moved on. At least one of the sisters is no longer with WV either, she has moved to Sclerder Carmel and there have been some other changes as well that are not reflected. WV is not the only UK Carmel that has not updated their website or their photos in a very long time (KE is exactly the same as when I entered), and the generic UK Carmel site that show all of the Carmels, does not stay current either. It would be lovely if it did because I often check back there to see if things have been updated, and am always disappointed. The best source of information is word of mouth here on phatmass since we often have posters who have visited a community recently or who still have sister friends who give them info.

So let's not get "cross" at anyone on here for posting their own observations about UK Carmels. If the Carmels want us to have timely information about them, they should make sure that they get someone to update their sites... and the general UK one as well!! And Cloister Outreach does have some interesting info on it - I have read about communities that are no longer accepting applicants (not just Carmels) and that has been a big help to me in my current discernment. I know there is a 'history' of disagreement here with Cloister Outreach but perhaps we could practice a little forbearance and kindness with each other?

And if anyone has more recent info about Darlington Carmel that would be great, but a source who wanted to apply with them and who spoke with one of the sisters was told that their accommodation is too small to accept applicants, and that they even have to go out for Mass. This does sound like 'closing down' to me, although perhaps they haven't been formally suppressed yet.

Edited May 21, 2011 by nunsense

May 21, 2011

Thank you nunsense for your post.
It would be nice also to see someone apologizing with Studium for their harsh posts.
First of all Studium's intention was only good, she simply wanted to help people here in their discernment, avoiding them to be disappointed knowing that some Carmels they feel drawn to do not accept aspirants.
Second, she has first hand informations about Darlington: they do not accept aspirants and directs vocations to Preston.
If those who replied really want accurate informations they have simply to call Darlington and ask: they will see that Studium's informations are right.

Edited May 21, 2011 by organwerke

May 21, 2011

[quote name='organwerke' timestamp='1306003461' post='2244241']
Thank you nunsense for your post.
It would be nice also to see someone apologizing with Studium for their harsh posts.
First of all Studium's intention was only good, she simply wanted to help people here in their discernment, avoiding them to be disappointed knowing that some Carmels they feel drawn to do not accept aspirants.
Second, she has first hand informations about Darlington: they do not accept aspirants and directs vocations to Preston.
If those who replied really want accurate informations they have simply to call Darlington and ask: they will see that Studium's informations are right.
[/quote]

In support of everyone, I must say that the English Carmels aren't making it easy to keep up with them. Perhaps this is deliberate, as things appear to be in such flux.

That said, I can understand a reluctance simply to call them up on the phone. First of all, you may be interrupting them. Then there are the awkward questions.

"Hello. Are you still open? Are you taking candidates? What are you like? What's your horarium? Are you 1990 or 1991?"

It's common politeness to answer email and especially, snail mail. If necessary, a printed response is adequate ( preferably signed!)

Edited May 21, 2011 by Yaatee

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