Does Anyone Else....

[BarbTherese]

[quote]None of this, 'oh it must be God's will that you aren't meant to be a religious'[/quote]

It is said that there are three signs of vocation:

The desire to be
The qualities to be
And acceptance by 'the be's'

It seems to me, Nunsense, that you have the desire and even the qualities and that it seems you may be accepted for entrance at this point - not as a Carmelite.....perhaps........but possibly as a Benedictine......perhaps. I absolutely admire you in your perseverence and even moreso if you are meeting with some opposition. This is God's Grace active in you, for if it were not you would have given up long ago. Recall some of the great opposition that many of our saints met with and in their own lifetime often by The Church Herself.

God's Will is manifest to my mind at final profession. Up to that point it is discernment both by the religious community and the applicant. At various stages along the way that discerning becomes more and more serious and affirmed at final profession, ordination, marriage, consecration - whatever. At those various stages along the way for religious life, the content of that stage and accompanying liturgy make manifest what that actual stage is, what one is actually doing. It is serious stuff! And I very much doubt anyone would enter into those various stages without meaning in full heart what they are saying and committing themselves to. And yet some do leave and get official permission to do so even after final profession.

It seems to me that the moment we try to put God into a nice and neat, tidy, understandable, compartment, He escapes.

Keep on keeping on, Nunsense - and chin up and out gal, just watch out for those who might want to take a swing at you!....One thing that endeared me to St. Therese is that stubborn stubborn chin of hers...
http://blog.dartmouthapologia.org/show/521
.........regards - Barb

Edited June 13, 2011 by BarbaraTherese

[Nunsense]

Barb - one of the most inspiring women I have heard speak recently (on radio) is Major Shawna Kimbrell, USAF. She was a motorcyle cop and then wanted to be a jet fighter pilot despite the fact that the Air Force had no African American female fighter pilots. She trained hard but came fourth when there were only two places open. She didn't give up, but trained instead to be a helicopter combat fighter pilot and decided that she had to pass first in her class to guarantee a place, which she did, and became the first female African American combat fighter pilot.... through numerous experiences of prejudice for being both a woman and an African American!

Her interview encouraged me not to give up my dream, but perhaps to modify it, as she had done. So, no, I am probably never going to become a Carmelite, but I don't regret a moment of my time in Carmel. I don't know God's will for me but I know only that I am, as one priest told me, 'called to something, I just don't know what yet!' lol.

I admire you for your own journey and believe that if we all just offered more support and charity for each other, then we would go a long way towards helping each other live out our respective 'vocations'. Sometimes that isn't always evident with each other but I appreciate your words which have been this and more!
Yes, there is a fine distinction between God's will and Quietism, but I think many people err on the side of the heresy without realizing it - which can be just another form of giving up too soon! Of course, it helps if one has spiritual guidance from a holy and learned source.

[BarbTherese]

[quote]Barb - one of the most inspiring women I have heard speak recently (on radio) is Major Shawna Kimbrell, USAF. She was a motorcyle cop and then wanted to be a jet fighter pilot despite the fact that the Air Force had no African American female fighter pilots. She trained hard but came fourth when there were only two places open. She didn't give up, but trained instead to be a helicopter combat fighter pilot and decided that she had to pass first in her class to guarantee a place, which she did, and became the first female African American combat fighter pilot.... through numerous experiences of prejudice for being both a woman and an African American!

Her interview encouraged me not to give up my dream, but perhaps to modify it, as she had done. So, no, I am probably never going to become a Carmelite, but I don't regret a moment of my time in Carmel. I don't know God's will for me but I know only that I am, as one priest told me, 'called to something, I just don't know what yet!' lol.[/quote]

I dont think anyone, whether they express it or not, cannot fail to be admiring and inspired by your own journey! I was really moved a while back by quite a few posts here begging God to be kind to Nunsense since He has led you on such a difficult journey. I thought to myself that never had more true words probably been spoken. If we want to ponder what Love is than the Parable of The Good Samaritan is a good place to start. And if we want to measure our love then "how can you say you Love God, whom you cannot see, if you do not love your neighbour whom you can see?" Our love of God can be measured by just how much we love and care for and about each other and without qualifications, even those who may be our 'enemies'.

As long as you desire to enter religious life and you have the qualities necessary - and you do in that your mental and physical health is sound, you possibly do have a vocation. These are not 'accidents of fate' but Gifts of God and we are called to use the gifts He has given us to His Glory. And it follows too, that if a religious order is prepared to accept you, then this is a further sign of religious vocation. That is simple theology. After acceptance and entrance into a religious order, the years of discernment by the community and the applicant then follow. It could be said that the final 'statment by God' that this person is called by Me to to this community is at final profession.

I like to say that The Holy Spirit is no snob. Very often we are religiously or spiritually inspired by something that is quite secular even not at all Catholic. "The Lord moves in strange ways" to us at times. When we very least expect it, God speaks to us, and in a way at times that may be the least expected. Hence if you are inspired by Major Shawna Kimbrell, USAF and her story, give thanks for it and follow that inspiration to wherever it may lead. Gold, after all, is simply where it is, where we find it. There is a beautiful hymn at Night Prayer :

"Lead kindly Light, amid the encircling gloom
Lead Thou me on.
The night is dark, and I am far from home,
Lead thou me on.
Keep Thou my feet, I do not ask to see
The distant scene
Lead Thou me on"

"Encircling gloom" can be when it feels as if most all are against us. "The night is dark" this could mean when we are not understanding. "Far from home" - home is a place of belonging.

I sure can well recall when I felt God calling me, but had no idea at all to what. The mistake that can be made (and not necessarily yours) is that one can be aware of being called and answers 'The Lord's question' with what one wants oneself. I love some of our humns and the "Gallilee Song" is another one:
[quote]As I gaze into the night down the future of my years,
I’m not sure I want to walk past horizons that I know!
But I feel my spirit called like a stirring deep within,
restless, ’til I live again beyond the fears that close me in!

So I leave my boats behind!
Leave them on familiar shores!
Set my heart upon the deep!
Follow you again, my Lord![/quote]

Of course, some feel called and they know to what. Others know they are called, being called - but to what they have no idea but in Faith and trust in God set out upon the deep and follow their Lord to wherever He may lead.


[quote]I admire you for your own journey and believe that if we all just offered more support and charity for each other, then we would go a long way towards helping each other live out our respective 'vocations'. Sometimes that isn't always evident with each other but I appreciate your words which have been this and more![/quote]

Charity, Love, is the heart of The Blessed Trinity and the Life of The Blessed Trinity, as Love is at the heart of The Church. It is Love that will draw us into Unity with God, nothing else. As St. Paul says "all these remain, but the greatest of these is Charity".
And truth, no matter how much truth or how well supported etc. we can be very sure is only half the truth if delivered or conveyed without Love. As love without truth is merely flattery.

[quote]Yes, there is a fine distinction between God's will and Quietism, but I think many people err on the side of the heresy without realizing it - which can be just another form of giving up too soon! Of course, it helps if one has spiritual guidance from a holy and learned source.[/quote]

If your heart is telling you do not give up, then do not give up. Seek wise and sound, holy spiritual direction. And dont settle for less than that - keep seeking until you find it. And if you cannot find it then have every confidence and trust that The Lord would never let you go astray. Never! Hold in your heart and mind that The Lord always and forever has His Good Reasons as strange even adverse things can seem to oneself. It is never easy, it is a cross and suffering, to 'swim against the tide' or to meet opposition and it is natural and normal that opposition may cause you to doubt yourself. Swim on and follow your heart, and try to often recall what some of our saints went through and let that be your guide. One of the prime reasons The Church canonizes is for our edification and encouragement in our own journeys and some will speak to our own journey very intimately more than others.
Our confirmation saints is our special patron and their lives will speak to us.

God continue to bless you and hold you close and my prayer will be that He fulfills the dreams and hopes of your heart - and He will. I know this. It may not be in the hopes you now have, or it may. But fulfillment there will be. The one and only thing, the sole and alone thing, that can separate us from God and His Love and Care is mortal sin. We have to choose to totally reject God and all He offers. But God Himself absolutely never, not even in the face of our total rejection and mortal sin, fails to go on Loving and Caring, Providing. The Lord is the All Faithful One - and always and forever. Free will, His Greatest Gift to us, can also be our enemy but we must clearly and freely choose, with full knowledge, to act in free will against our best interests.... Regards..........Barb

[Nunsense]

Sorry to anyone if Barb and I seem to have highjacked this thread, but I think it is still relevant that I started out discerning the Carmelite vocation and am now doing the same for the Benedictine, and learning so much along the way. Where we think we should be isn't always want God intends as a final destination. So our initial attraction to one community may serve a purpose, but it may not be where we finally discover our 'home'.

Last night I spoke with the Abbess where I really want to enter (in the UK), and she is trying to work out the date for my visit. She asked me to phone back on Thursday, which just happens to be my birthday as well! Although a birthday is a significant date for anyone, for me these days a birthday always means one year older and less likely to be accepted by a community so I tend to dread them.... but that's okay because age doesn't seem to be a problem for this Abbess. If all goes well, I will go in the European autumn for the visit... so please pray for me that I also get the job I am hoping for to pay for this visit! I had an interview last week and have good feelings about it... but as Barb mentioned one of my favourite hymns (Lead Kindly Light), I know it is 'one step enough for me'.

I would say that if a person feels a strong affinity for a particular community, then go for it, but don't be attached to it either. I think faithcecilia has gone through something similar in feeling one's heart in one place, but knowing that God might be calling us somewhere else... for His own reasons. That's why I prefer to work with a SD - to help discern the different feelings that pull us back and forth.

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='FutureSister2009' timestamp='1307820577' post='2252415']
Why must there be so many communities when they all generally follow the same Charism and take mostly the same vows of Poverty, Chastity and Obedience? Why can't there just be one?
[/quote]

Good question - and perhaps prophetic and visionary. Who knows! Pre V2 if anyone had suggested the changes the Holy Spirit had in mind, they probably would have been declared heretical. Ah well, the stake is now banned as is questioning on the rack.
Here in Australia some religious orders are moving to involve lay people in their charism including by types of promises or vows ....... progress and progress is change.

[Nunsense]

[url="http://www.phatmass.com/phorum/index.php?app=forums&module=forums&section=findpost&pid=2252415"][/url][quote] FutureSister2009, on 12 June 2011 - 04:29 AM, said:

Why must there be so many communities when they all generally follow the same Charism and take mostly the same vows of Poverty, Chastity and Obedience? Why can't there just be one?
[/quote]

I don't think they are all the same charism at all. I have found that the different communities focus on different aspects of the monastic life to a greater or lesser degree. For example, the Franciscan charism has always been more focused on the vow of poverty than most other communities, and their emphasis was never on studying per se. St Anthony found it hard at first changing from the Augustinians to the Franciscans because he felt less humble than they were due to his advanced learning, but St Francis encouraged him to preach and share his gifts and training. The Dominicans, on the other hand, are very focused on learning and study, and are know specificially as preachers and teachers. The Carmelites have contemplation and mental prayer as their focus and the Benedictines stress the importance of the Divine Office as their main work of God. The Salesians focused on caring for young people, etc, etc, etc... These things all complement each other to build up and strengthen the Church. As St Paul said, the Spirit gives different gifts to each of us, and having different communities allows them to focus on a specific gift of the Spirit given to them.

The foundation is the same, but the expression is different - like flowers!

[BarbTherese]

[quote name='nunsense' timestamp='1308021649' post='2253448']
Sorry to anyone if Barb and I seem to have highjacked this thread, but I think it is still relevant that I started out discerning the Carmelite vocation and am now doing the same for the Benedictine, and learning so much along the way. Where we think we should be isn't always want God intends as a final destination. So our initial attraction to one community may serve a purpose, but it may not be where we finally discover our 'home'.

Last night I spoke with the Abbess where I really want to enter (in the UK), and she is trying to work out the date for my visit. She asked me to phone back on Thursday, which just happens to be my birthday as well! Although a birthday is a significant date for anyone, for me these days a birthday always means one year older and less likely to be accepted by a community so I tend to dread them.... but that's okay because age doesn't seem to be a problem for this Abbess. If all goes well, I will go in the European autumn for the visit... so please pray for me that I also get the job I am hoping for to pay for this visit! I had an interview last week and have good feelings about it... but as Barb mentioned one of my favourite hymns (Lead Kindly Light), I know it is 'one step enough for me'.

I would say that if a person feels a strong affinity for a particular community, then go for it, but don't be attached to it either. I think faithcecilia has gone through something similar in feeling one's heart in one place, but knowing that God might be calling us somewhere else... for His own reasons. That's why I prefer to work with a SD - to help discern the different feelings that pull us back and forth.
[/quote]

Which Benedictine community and where, Nunsense - can you say? Have you contacted the Tyburn Sisters in Riverstone, New South Wales ? Some time ago I heard they had accepted a mature aged applicant. There are also Benedictines in Jamberoo - but I dont know their position on later vocations.
I am keeping you in daily prayer by name especially for work and accommodation in Melbourne and sufficient funds to visit the UK - also all on Phatmass.

My apolgies if I have hijacked the thread off topic


And may Thursday bring you many joys and in the year ahead.

[Adele]

[font="Times New Roman"][size="4"]Hello, everyone! This is my first post. I am a 50-year-old woman...despite the masculine silhouette which I haven't figured out how to change yet. (I hope that after this post I will be able to make some personalizations!) Anyway, my heart is set on Carmel, even though I did not persevere in two Discalced Carmelite monasteries. I intend to find another community willing to accept me (or ask a former Prioress if she would take me back) but I always wonder if this persistent desire for Carmel is in conformity with God's Will or just my own. (I am looking for a Spiritual Director but each time I've found a Priest that I thought I could trust/obey, I found out he was leaving my area. So please pray I find a Director to help me determine my suitablity for religious life (especially cloistered life) and one that can help me work on the spiritual problems that prevented me from persevering in Carmel.) But, to answer the original question, I have been attracted to the Benedictines, the Poor Clares (until I think about 6 hours of sleep interrupted by the midnight Office, that is), and even a few active Congregations, but the strong feeling that Carmel is the only place [i]for me[/i] eventually puts an end to such thoughts. I hope this is an indication of a call to Carmel...what great peace it would be to know God's Will![i] [/i][/size][/font]