A Civilized And Focused Discussion On Life Teen

[Cam42]

[quote name='kujo' timestamp='1308669390' post='2256797']
Your attempt at guilt aside, I'm gonna go ahead and fall back on the same thing I've said for several pages now: God doesn't care about it. Audrey was dead on above--it seems like you guys are more concerned with dressing in such a way that other people will believe is the correct way to dress at mass. It's not about God--or at least it's not ALL about God. If it was, you wouldn't care how others dressed. You'd do your thing and barely even notice others.
[/quote]

How do you know the mind of God?

I'll say this again...it isn't ONLY about caring about how others dress. It is about caring about how one dresses particularly and how he is going to present himself to the King of the Universe. The other side of this is that you somehow think that this is a personal attack on you. It isn't. That is a pretty self absorbed way to think. Really, this is about how all people should be dressing to meet the King of the Universe.

Now, I've been arguing all along that one should dress their best. Right? Right. I have put forth a standard. Right? Right. Should people dress according to that standard? Yes, insofar as they can. Now, I would be willing to bet that 99.99% of Phatmassers are able to head over to their nearest Kohl's and buy a pair of slacks, a white oxford and a pair of shoes for under $100. Throw in a suit coat and a tie and you'll probably add another $100. So, for $200, the average guy (and it is cheaper for a girl, mind you), will be able to have a Sunday outfit that will last him oh, let's say 1 year. So, in that time, he has spent $3.84/week over the course of the year on clothes for Sunday Mass. So, the whole, "people can't afford it, thing..." yeah, not so much. If that is an issue, here's some advice....don't go to McDonalds for lunch on Tuesdays (I can get two cheesburgers, fries and a soda for about $4.00).

Honestly kujo, the only argument that you have that makes any sense is that you disagree with being so formal and stuffy at Mass. Well, Mass isn't a luau. It should be treated with more respect than a baseball game. It should be shown the respect not only in the non-corporeal, but also in the corporeal, since you insist upon making this a philsophical debate. What we do in real life affects what we do in our minds...If we dress better, we act better. If we act better, we feel better. And since the liberal mantra has been all about "feeling good at Mass" for the last 40 years or so, don't you think that it would make sense to dress up. Or is that too logical for you?

I don't care what you wear to Mass, to be blunt. But you should. And that should drive you to dress better than a t-shirt and shorts, unless of course you just think of Jesus as a buddy and not as the King of the Universe. If that is the case, then this thread needs to be spun into a much more serious conversation about how we view Christ, because He didn't die to be considered our buddy.

[Cam42]

[quote name='MithLuin' timestamp='1308677727' post='2256851']
I did for a month straight when I was a [url="http://blog.themoes.us/p/charism.html"]Missionary of the Eucharist[/url] - we were itinerant, and didn't have the luxury of bringing dress clothes with us or of changing each day after mass before we started walking. Shorts and tshirt for daily mass on the go, tshirt with skirt/slacks for Sunday mass (our 'day of rest' so we weren't walking.) [/quote]

Not to be snarky, but I wonder how the Mormons have done it for all their missionary work? The men all wear a shirt and tie and I'm more than certain it is longer than a month. I am also certain that they had less than you did to start as well....

No disrespect, but we need to get away from this idea that in order to minister to kids, we have to look like kids....

I get more boys to start serving Mass by staying in my cassock for 15-20 minutes after Mass, than I ever did at UST wearing pretty much what is being argued for...it's kinda telling.

[Lil Red]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308685508' post='2256905']
Not to be snarky, but I wonder how the Mormons have done it for all their missionary work? The men all wear a shirt and tie and I'm more than certain it is longer than a month. I am also certain that they had less than you did to start as well....

No disrespect, but we need to get away from this idea that in order to minister to kids, we have to look like kids....

I get more boys to start serving Mass by staying in my cassock for 15-20 minutes after Mass, than I ever did at UST wearing pretty much what is being argued for...it's kinda telling.
[/quote]
ummm, they walk from Maine to [s]New York[/s] (my understanding) D.C.

[quote]We spend each summer walking from Maine to Washington DC, interacting with strangers we meet along the way. We are grounded in prayer-we pray with our lips, our hearts, and our bodies. In walking an average of twenty-five miles per day, we offer our fatigue as a gift of love to Christ and the people we meet. Our walking is both sacrifice and prayer.[/quote]

i'm guessing walking up to 25 miles a day cuts down on the amount of clothes you bring with you. did you even go to the link MithLuin provided?

[MithLuin]

Oh, I agree that Americans can afford to dress up. I mean, Salvation Army, people! Value City. Goodwill. You can *easily* find a used sports coat there, no problem. Sure, it might not be stylish, but whatevs, it matches the dress code.

Remember that teen runner I mentioned at mass yesterday? Guess which one of us looked nicer? She did. She's a teenage girl and she had her blonde hair pulled back in a nice braid. She looked fine in her tshirt and shorts, though obviously they were less formal than you might like to see.

I was wearing a skirt (past my knees), but it happened to be a skirt I got as a hand-me-down...from my grandmother, when they cleaned out her closet after she passed away. You can only see the bloodstain if you look closely. So...yeah, not exactly lookin' good. But, hey, I wore a skirt to mass, and that's what matters, right? With a long sleeve button-down shirt with collar (tucked into the elastic waistband). And cute sandals . So, do I pass the dress code test? Or am I still supposed to worry about being neat and stylish and dressing up to meet the king of the universe before going to mass and out for Korean takeaway after?

I pay attention to dress codes, and make some effort to be appropriately dressed up for certain occasions. But under no condition are my outfits deemed to be 'stylish' so someone could be more casual than me and still be super cute in comparison. I'm much more comfortable saying 'dress up for mass' than 'wear X, Y, Z to mass.' There are people who wouldn't be caught dead in a polo shirt and khakis, and that's fine...but they should still try to dress up for mass, meeting the basic criteria.



Haha, yeah, thanks, [b]Lil Red[/b]. Mormons aren't itinerant. They have a home base or some place they are staying. We didn't. We were living out of a van, sleeping in a different church basement or person's home each night. And walking. A LOT. We were each allowed to bring one bag with our belongings in it, and the packing list was very strict. So, no, a dress shirt wasn't on the list, and how would we have ironed them, anyway? We weren't ministering to teens, but rather to everyone we met in our travels - mostly adults, but of course kids, too. All ages, all walks of life. People with second homes in Spain. Homeless guys. Hippie farmers. People with mental disorders. Christians. Convert Catholics. Rastafarians. Immigrants. People abused by priests. People who love the Latin mass. Charismatics. Women entering abortion clinics. White, black, hispanic, Asian. Just...people. The tshirts/hoodies were our uniform, so we were easily identifiable as a group. They say on them, "Proclaiming the Beauty of the Catholic Faith." The shorts were just because that's easier to walk in and it was the summer time, but if someone wanted to walk in capris or pant.s that would have been acceptable.

Edited June 21, 2011 by MithLuin

[AudreyGrace]

So how about that civilized and focused discussion on Life Teen?

edit for "and focused"

Edited June 21, 2011 by AudreyGrace

[MithLuin]

Haha, well, considering the opening post of this thread was about the dress code, not Life Teen.....

The Missionaries of the Eucharist walking across the Brooklyn Bridge on their way to Ground Zero.
[img]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_M1LnK8_dh7I/TEUcAPKkeNI/AAAAAAAATa0/cLpbnY0iuTw/s400/DSCN0646.JPG[/img]

[Cam42]

Mith Luin,

You're missing my point. This isn't about you personally, like it isn't about kujo personally.

This is about the standard. I am very well aware there are exceptions to every rule, but when the exception becomes the norm, then we have a problem don't we?

As far as the Mormon thing goes, I think that you get the point, right? They spent 2 years away from home, travelling, getting by on about $400 a month, moving from place to place, and yet, they stick to a dress code, willingly. I'm not saying that you had to, but I am saying that religious differences aside, it can be done.

And I'd be willing to bet that 100% of Mormon missionaries would tell you that they were itenerant. They don't stay in one place for very long...and their goal isn't to walk from one place to another in a month in the short term, it is to proselytize the Mormon religion and convert. But that is a wholly different conversation and not the point of the example....

My overall point is that if one takes the time to dress up for Mass, FOR THEIR OWN SAKE, then they do a better service to God, because they are showing better respect to Our Lord in the Blessed Sacrament.

From Monsignor Charles Pope:

[quote] [b]1. Scripture[/b] – There is very little in Scripture that seems to spell out the proper way to dress for sacred worship. There is the general directive to [i]Adore the Lord in holy attire [/i](Psalm 96:9;Ps 29:2)

[b]2. Church norms and rules[/b] – There are no official and specific Church norms or requirement for lay persons who attend Mass mentioned in Canon Law or the Sacramentary. Surely for priests and other clergy there are many rules and norms but I am unaware of any currently binding norms for the laity. Although the veils were once required for women,the 1917 Code of Canon Law was abrogated and the current code is silent on any requirement.

[b]3. Hence it seems that Culture supplies[/b] most of the norms regarding what is considered appropriate attire for Church. And,alas our culture is currently quite unhelpful to us in this regard. Here in America we have become extremely casual about the way we dress for just about everything. It seems we almost never dress up anymore. This has changed somewhat dramatically in my own life time of just less than 50 years. “Sneakers” or “tennis shoes” as we called them were for sports or running around and playing in the neighborhood. But we would never even think of wearing them to school and certainly not to Church. I remember having a special set of shoes just for church. In the 1960s,it was also expected that I would go to Church in formal,pressed trousers,a button down shirt,and,except in the hottest months,a tie and even a suit jacket in winter. My sister and mother always wore a dress. pantaloons would not even have been considered for them. For the younger girls a skirt and a blouse might be OK but preferably a dress with a hat or veil.

[b]But things changed dramatically around 1970.[/b] The photo above right was taken in 1969 at St. John the Evangelist Parish in Canton,Massachusetts. It was the end of an era. Within five years neckties were lost and jeans and a t-shirts came to be the norm. Most of the women as we discussed lost the veil,and dresses gave way to more casual pantaloons suits and then also to other more casual things like jeans etc. Shorts for men and women,unthinkable in previous years also began to appear in church as did tank tops and other beach attire. Within ten years the culture of dressing up for Church was almost wholly abandoned. Now wearing a tie to Church would seem stuffy and formal.

[b]4. Hence at the cost of seeming old and stuffy I might like to suggest a few norms and I hope you’ll supply your own as well:[/b]

[list][*]Men should wear formal shoes to Church. We used to call these hard shoes (because they were) but today many formal shoes are actually quite comfortable.[*]Men should wear trousers (not jeans).[*]Men should never wear shorts to Church.[*]Men should wear a decent shirt,preferably a button down shirt. If it is a pullover shirt it should include a collar. Wearing a plain t-shirt without a collar is too informal.[*]Men should consider wearing a tie to Church and in cooler weather,a suit coat. Some may consider this a bit too stuffy and formal but who knows,you might be a trend setter![*][i]Now as I talk about women I know I’ll get in some trouble![/i][*]Women should wear decent shoes to Church. Flip flops,beach sandals etc. seem inappropriate.[*]Women should not wear shorts to Church.[*]Women,if they wear pantaloons,should never wear jeans to Church. Some nice slacks that are not too tight can be fine.[*]Women should consider wearing a dress or at least a skirt in preference to pantaloons. It just looks a bit more formal than pantaloons.[*]Women should wear a nice blouse (if they are not wearing a full dress). The blouse or shirt they wear should not be too tight.[*]Sleeveless garments are pushing it a bit but can be acceptable.[*]Women should never wear tank tops,tube tops,spaghetti straps,or bare midriffs to Church. [b] Editor’s Note:How about adding low-cut or tight shirts and blouses.[/b][*]Well,you may have at this list. Add or subtract as you will.[/list][b]A final thought[/b]:Clothes say something about what we think,what we value. They also influence how we behave and feel. That our culture has become so casual about everything says something about us. I cannot exactly articulate it but it seems to say,“[i]nothing is really all that important[/i].” But that is not true. Going to God’s house IS important. Being ministered to by the King of Kings and Lord of Lords is astounding. Casual attire in these circumstances is simply inappropriate if we really think about what we are doing,where we are going and who it is we will meet. It does not necessarily follow that we must wear tuxedos and formal gowns. But decent semi-formal attire seems wholly appropriate. Sunday is special,God’s House is special. Somethings really ARE important and our clothing and demeanor ought to reflect this truth. [/quote]

That is a truncated adaptation of [url="http://blog.adw.org/2010/05/adore-the-lord-in-holy-attire-on-proper-dress-for-mass/"]THIS[/url].

I think it is a good summation of what I've been trying to say all along.

[vee]

I find most appealing the thought of being clothed in virtue.

I found this as an example.
Not only is Mary Queen of Carmel, but also the Beauty and Flower of Carmel, the Flos Carmeli. In Mary's perfect yes, the Church sees itself brought to perfection. Her splendid purity and loving humility adorn the Church in the eyes of her Divine Spouse. So Mary gives her own beauty to the order of Carmel. Carmelites rely on Mary, their Mother, to bestow on them her own virtue and merit. By her scapular, Mary clothes her children in Carmel with her very self.

[Luigi]

[quote name='AudreyGrace' timestamp='1308686622' post='2256918']
So how about that civilized and focused discussion on Life Teen?

edit for "and focused"
[/quote]


Picky, picky, picky!

[MithLuin]

Prettttty sure the Mormons have beds. And showers. And money. We didn't - we were completely mendicant, and thus ate the food people gave us and stayed where we were invited/welcome. Being clean-cut is part of their persona to make people more likely to invite them into their homes. Street evangelization, like beach evangelization, is different - you just need to engage people in conversation, and the matching t-shirts is a great way to get people to say 'What are you doing?' or 'Where are you from?' As was the Vatican flag and processional crucifix that we carried with us along the way. They're conversation starters, and served their purpose. The Missionaries of the Eucharist have a dress code; I followed it. When I'm not with them, I don't wear that to mass.

[img]http://a4.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/8723_1168371532914_1336710051_30617708_8384732_n.jpg[/img]
Evening prayer on Mount Equinox, looking down at the Carthusian monastery.


Anyway, I'm pretty sure I've been agreeing with you all along in this thread? That casual attire at mass is a bad habit in American culture. I don't see anything wrong with your norms, really, and have heard stricter ones suggested. (Women must never wear p.ants! Sleeveless is unacceptable!! Etc.) The question is...how do you go about convincing people to do that?

Edited June 22, 2011 by MithLuin

[Brother Adam]

That is a good and reasonable list Cam. I think I will publish it in my church bulletin. I have been saying the same thing about dress recently to our parishioners.

[Cam42]

[quote name='Brother Adam' timestamp='1308703997' post='2257097']
That is a good and reasonable list Cam. I think I will publish it in my church bulletin. I have been saying the same thing about dress recently to our parishioners.
[/quote]

[mortify]

I never understood the difficulty of this topic. When it comes to a funeral, no one questions wearing formal attire suited to the occassion.

I think the problem is much deeper, and it's as Cam suggested earlier: the problem is ultimately how we view God.

[Ice_nine]

[quote name='Cam42' timestamp='1308666552' post='2256780']
It isn't about impressing any one person. It is about looking your best to give glory to God. Sure, it can be done in a t-shirt and shorts, but why would you want to? Why wouldn't you want to look your best for the single most important thing you will do all week?[/quote]

What if I [i]honestly[/i] feel that I do look my best in a t-shirt and shorts? Because I do. Maybe I am just hopelessly inept (a very probable possibility) when it comes to attire, I think I've always been. It's always confused the hell out of me as to all the rules as to what is appropriate to wear to certain occasions, and always dread occasions where I have to dress up. When I look at myself in a dress I think "there is no way people are going to buy this" I feel totally mismatched and hopelessly out of place.

When I dress myself for Mass, I really do try to take the effort to understand what it is I am going to do (although I'm human and do get stuck with going through the motions at times) but I don't feel like my dress [i]has[/i] to reflect that. And that's not being said in a lazy "well I don't have to do it so I'm gonna do the minimum and nothing more," but my dress will reflect [i]different[/i] things to [i]different[/i] people. That's just the reality of the situation. As much as you try to say there are objective standards, I really can't believe that. Maybe within certain communities and certain demographics but I really don't think it's as black and white as you think. My dress [i]to me[/i] does reflect respect and dignity but I [i]know[/i] that it will not reflect the same to certain folks. The thing is I can't know all the rules, all the ways it might reflect to other people, I only know how the reflection appears to myself. And figuring out how to reflect the right thing to everyone has been too exhausting for me. I don't understand why someone doesn't see the same reflection that I can see when I look at myself in a colorful t-shirt and a pair of jeans. It's impossible for some people to look at that attire and see the same thing, but does that mean I'm wrong for seeing signs dignity and reverence where others don't? Like maybe I'm just fooling myself and seeing things that aren't there?

[quote name='Papist' timestamp='1308668086' post='2256795']
If you were going to meet the president, would you wear shorts, t-shirts and sneakers? [[/quote]

Believe it or not, I would. In fact I wouldn't care too much about looking nice, that is too say there are scores of other situations in which I would care much more about my appearance. If it was a formal dinner party where they literally wouldn't let me in without proper attire? I'd probably pass altogether, unless I had something to accomplish with my presence then I would begrudgingly dress up in order to accomplish something. If I literally would not be accepted into somewhere I needed to be, without specific dress requirements I would do comply (including Mass and other less important but still important things) but I would still not understand the logic in it and I would be disheartened as it seems to be pathetically shallow. Shallowness truly makes me sad.

[quote]I never understood the difficulty of this topic. When it comes to a funeral, no one questions wearing formal attire suited to the occassion. [/quote]

I've questioned it the first funeral I went to, and every one I've gone to since. Picking out an outfit seems laughably unimportant when you compare it to the loss of a loved one and the condition of someone's eternal soul among other things. I wear formal attire to funerals however, because that's not the time or place for me to start a revolution. People believe it shows respect. I think this idea is shallow and flawed (not to say that means those who think that are shallow), but it's not the time or place to challenge someone's philosophy on how appearance relates to the inward being etc. Generally, it's something that's been ingrained into people, I accept that and don't want to add to the grief they already experience. And when I lost someone close to me, I did so for similar reasons but it was harder because I was grieving and didn't see why, when staring mortality in the face, I had to give a beaver dam about what I was wearing. It just seemed such an absurd thing to care about when a million other staggering implications and profound questions came crashing upon me.

In fact , when I die I would want people to wear whatever they would typically wear on any normal day. To me that would show that people understood who I am a little more. I don't think it shows disrespect, I think it would show they are focusing on more important things

[quote]I think the problem is much deeper, and it's as Cam suggested earlier: the problem is ultimately how we view God.[/quote]

I think the problem is deeper too, but in the sense that man gives too much attention to the outward and external, rather than try to look past that to the heart of the issue. "For the LORD sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the LORD looks on the heart." I know we do not possess the omnipotence of God, but it's like shouldn't we at least [i]try[/i] to look at the heart and past appearances?

[Cam42]

[quote name='Ice_nine' timestamp='1308729011' post='2257198']
What if I [i]honestly[/i] feel that I do look my best in a t-shirt and shorts? Because I do. Maybe I am just hopelessly inept (a very probable possibility) when it comes to attire, I think I've always been. It's always confused the hell out of me as to all the rules as to what is appropriate to wear to certain occasions, and always dread occasions where I have to dress up. When I look at myself in a dress I think "there is no way people are going to buy this" I feel totally mismatched and hopelessly out of place.

When I dress myself for Mass, I really do try to take the effort to understand what it is I am going to do (although I'm human and do get stuck with going through the motions at times) but I don't feel like my dress [i]has[/i] to reflect that. And that's not being said in a lazy "well I don't have to do it so I'm gonna do the minimum and nothing more," but my dress will reflect [i]different[/i] things to [i]different[/i] people. That's just the reality of the situation. As much as you try to say there are objective standards, I really can't believe that. Maybe within certain communities and certain demographics but I really don't think it's as black and white as you think. My dress [i]to me[/i] does reflect respect and dignity but I [i]know[/i] that it will not reflect the same to certain folks. The thing is I can't know all the rules, all the ways it might reflect to other people, I only know how the reflection appears to myself. And figuring out how to reflect the right thing to everyone has been too exhausting for me. I don't understand why someone doesn't see the same reflection that I can see when I look at myself in a colorful t-shirt and a pair of jeans. It's impossible for some people to look at that attire and see the same thing, but does that mean I'm wrong for seeing signs dignity and reverence where others don't? Like maybe I'm just fooling myself and seeing things that aren't there?



Believe it or not, I would. In fact I wouldn't care too much about looking nice, that is too say there are scores of other situations in which I would care much more about my appearance. If it was a formal dinner party where they literally wouldn't let me in without proper attire? I'd probably pass altogether, unless I had something to accomplish with my presence then I would begrudgingly dress up in order to accomplish something. If I literally would not be accepted into somewhere I needed to be, without specific dress requirements I would do comply (including Mass and other less important but still important things) but I would still not understand the logic in it and I would be disheartened as it seems to be pathetically shallow. Shallowness truly makes me sad.



I've questioned it the first funeral I went to, and every one I've gone to since. Picking out an outfit seems laughably unimportant when you compare it to the loss of a loved one and the condition of someone's eternal soul among other things. I wear formal attire to funerals however, because that's not the time or place for me to start a revolution. People believe it shows respect. I think this idea is shallow and flawed (not to say that means those who think that are shallow), but it's not the time or place to challenge someone's philosophy on how appearance relates to the inward being etc. Generally, it's something that's been ingrained into people, I accept that and don't want to add to the grief they already experience. And when I lost someone close to me, I did so for similar reasons but it was harder because I was grieving and didn't see why, when staring mortality in the face, I had to give a beaver dam about what I was wearing. It just seemed such an absurd thing to care about when a million other staggering implications and profound questions came crashing upon me.

In fact , when I die I would want people to wear whatever they would typically wear on any normal day. To me that would show that people understood who I am a little more. I don't think it shows disrespect, I think it would show they are focusing on more important things



I think the problem is deeper too, but in the sense that man gives too much attention to the outward and external, rather than try to look past that to the heart of the issue. "For the LORD sees not as man sees: man looks on the outward appearance, but the LORD looks on the heart." I know we do not possess the omnipotence of God, but it's like shouldn't we at least [i]try[/i] to look at the heart and past appearances?
[/quote]


I am not going to make a statement to any one individual. That isn't my place. If you want to talk about your aversions to dressing up, that is a psychological issue and one that I am not prepared nor am I qualified to discuss. So, I will leave that to the health care professionals to deal with. My point is to the universal idea, not the particular. Speaking to the universal, it is completely applicable. It is completely rational and completely acceptable that the church family expects her members to dress better than they do today. Take the time to read Monsignor Pope's blog post. I think that in speaking to the universal, his opinion makes sense. Is it doctrine or dogma, of course not, it isn't even a church discipline. What it is, is personal discipline. To put one's self into a position which at first may be considered a mortification, but after a while becomes a joy, for the Lord.

I can't think of many 4th graders who like putting on dress clothes. But once they get older and have been doing it for years, they understand the importance and practicality of dressing up with the occasion presents itself and it becomes a joy to do so. Is that the case with every single person? No. But it does happen more often than not. Our generation has never really been held to that standard. We grew up and are growing up in a society which forbids any sort of formality on the grounds that it might offend individual sensiblities. Well, that view is largely incompatible with Church teachings...Subjectivism really doesn't have a place in the Church. And to teach in a subjective way often leads to disasterous consequences. Look at the Archdioceses of Chicago and Los Angeles. Cardinal George has spent his entire episcopacy in Chicago fighting this and trying to rebuild what Bernadin tore down, as opposed to getting on with the Lord's business...and what Archbishop Gomez has in front of him, oy vey...

So, in short, I'm not going to comment on your personal statement, because I don't know the genus of your aversion to dress clothes. I'll leave that to those who are trained to deal with those sorts of issues. I'll stick to dealing with the universal.