Nihil Obstat Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 [quote name='Noel's angel' timestamp='1308503655' post='2255969'] If we all started riding unicycles around during Mass, I'd say a statement would come out pretty swiftly telling people not to do it. [/quote] My point is that some things don't even need to be said, because the principles are already in place for us to come to the proper conclusions. We don't need the Pope to tell us that clown Masses are totally unacceptable.
Noel's angel Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 Clown Masses and unicycles are completely different to the use of guitars. The use of guitars is widespread, whereas those who come up with clown Masses are in the minority. If we did have a clown Mass in every parish, something would most certainly be done about it. Now, if you're equating clown masses with guitars, I'd expect that if it's such a terrible abuse, something would have been done about it, especially since the guitar is used in virtually every parish I know of. Furthermore, it was seen to be acceptable to come out and say 'no pianos or drums' so there should be no problem with saying 'no guitars'.
Cam42 Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 (edited) [quote name='Noel's angel' timestamp='1308506791' post='2255996'] Clown Masses and unicycles are completely different to the use of guitars. The use of guitars is widespread, whereas those who come up with clown Masses are in the minority. If we did have a clown Mass in every parish, something would most certainly be done about it. Now, if you're equating clown masses with guitars, I'd expect that if it's such a terrible abuse, something would have been done about it, especially since the guitar is used in virtually every parish I know of. Furthermore, it was seen to be acceptable to come out and say 'no pianos or drums' so there should be no problem with saying 'no guitars'. [/quote] There are many abuses of the Mass that are widespread too. The guitar and using vulgar instruments and singing vulgar music is probably the biggest. Unity candles at a weddings are probably right up there too. As for clown Masses, not much is done about it....they are more widespread than you think. Things have been said about stringed instruments which are accpetable. You're applying a universal to a particular. When the Church teaches about stringed instruments which are accpetable and the guitar is not mentioned, it would seem that the ommission of that would been a non-condoning of said instrument. I know of several abuses which are done in just about every parish that I know of, but nothing is done about them, but that doesn't make it right....the piano, for instance. If we are to be part of the hermeneutic of continuity, then we should be about that business. The guitar and other vulgar instruments don't have a place in the Mass. They are not apt for sacred use. Edited June 19, 2011 by Cam42
Noel's angel Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 (edited) Piano is forbidden though. Nihil was really comparing apples and oranges, with the whole unicycles being comparative to guitars thing. Someone posted this earlier, and I found it interesting :"I will not now pronounce and say never guitar; that would be rather severe," Cardinal Arinze added. "But much of guitar music may not be suitable at all for the Mass. [b]Yet, it is possible to think of some guitar music that would be suitable, not as the ordinary one we get every time, [but with] the visit of a special group, etc.[/b]" If the guitar itself is unsuitable, would Cardinal Arinze not have said so? He's spoken out against other abuses, like 'liturgical dance' and the problems LIFE TEEN had, so why not guitar? Is Cardinal Arinze missing what you deem to be, the obvious? Edited June 19, 2011 by Noel's angel
Nihil Obstat Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 [quote name='Noel's angel' timestamp='1308508990' post='2256015'] Piano is forbidden though. Nihil was really comparing apples and oranges, with the whole unicycles being comparative to guitars thing. Someone posted this earlier, and I found it interesting :"I will not now pronounce and say never guitar; that would be rather severe," Cardinal Arinze added. "But much of guitar music may not be suitable at all for the Mass. [b]Yet, it is possible to think of some guitar music that would be suitable, not as the ordinary one we get every time, [but with] the visit of a special group, etc.[/b]" If the guitar itself is unsuitable, would Cardinal Arinze not have said so? He's spoken out against other abuses, like 'liturgical dance' and the problems LIFE TEEN had, so why not guitar? Is Cardinal Arinze missing what you deem to be, the obvious? [/quote] Cardinal Arinze might have heard some wonderful guitar music that I've never had the pleasure to listen to, but I've never heard guitar music that even approached being appropriate for Mass. I've listened to a lot of music.
Lil Red Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1308521542' post='2256091'] Cardinal Arinze might have heard some wonderful guitar music that I've never had the pleasure to listen to, but I've never heard guitar music that even approached being appropriate for Mass. I've listened to a lot of music. [/quote] have you listened to music while in other countries besides Westernized countries?
Nihil Obstat Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 [quote name='Lil Red' timestamp='1308521745' post='2256093'] have you listened to music while in other countries besides Westernized countries? [/quote] I've listened to music [i]from[/i] countries besides western ones. Quite a lot, actually. Alas I have never been to any countries besides Mexico, the US, England, and of course Canada.
Jaime Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1308521542' post='2256091'] Cardinal Arinze might have heard some wonderful guitar music that I've never had the pleasure to listen to, but I've never heard guitar music that even approached being appropriate for Mass. I've listened to a lot of music. [/quote] I'm sorry you've never heard me play
Nihil Obstat Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 [quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1308522588' post='2256102'] I'm sorry you've never heard me play [/quote] [img]http://www.yoelroth.com/hippie_playing_guitar_with_payos_open.jpg[/img]
Jaime Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1308522682' post='2256103'] [img]http://www.yoelroth.com/hippie_playing_guitar_with_payos_open.jpg[/img] [/quote] No need to be an arse. I actually have a minor in guitar.
Nihil Obstat Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 [quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1308523165' post='2256108'] No need to be an arse. I actually have a minor in guitar. [/quote] Thought you were being glib.
Jaime Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1308523419' post='2256110'] Thought you were being glib. [/quote] wrong again
Nihil Obstat Posted June 19, 2011 Posted June 19, 2011 [quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1308523513' post='2256111'] wrong again [/quote] No need to be an arse.
TeresaBenedicta Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 If the Pope allows hymns in his liturgies, then I'm not about to say they are liturgical abuses.
Jaime Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1308524484' post='2256113'] [s]No need to be an arse.[/s] Sorry about being rude jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff) [/quote] fixed
Cam42 Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 (edited) [quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1308528335' post='2256142'] If the Pope allows hymns in his liturgies, then I'm not about to say they are liturgical abuses. [/quote] Did you see the Mass at Pentecost? No hymns during Mass. Not one. There was Tu Es Petrus before Mass, as he was processing in, not part of the Mass. There was a fanfare as he was processing out...no hymns though. However, the ordinaries and the propers were sung. Catholic Tradition. The Pope had no hymns... As it is, we're still arguing apples and oranges... Hymns are not suited for Catholic Mass. The Mass has it's own particular way of worshiping through music. It is not with hymns. Hymns are para liturgical. What part of the documents that I posted are not clear enough? Hymns are a Protestant form of liturgical worship which was introduced after Vatican II as a norm through innovation. So, when you can prove that "On Eagles Wings" is Sacred Music, then I will change my mind. You can't. It is a hymn and at best it is para liturgical, from a Catholic point of view. The problem is that the para liturgical was introduced after Vatican II as a norm and that is an innovation. The Mass is not innovative, it is developed through thousands of years of tradition. It is within the last 50 years that it has been introduced. It is my contention that based upon those thousands of years of development and recent Church teaching that hymnody is not part of Catholic liturgical worship. As late as 1967, Musicam Sacram which is a post Vatican Council II document says this: [quote]28. The distinction between solemn, the high, and the low Mass, sanctioned by the 1958 Instruction (no. 3) remains in force, according to tradition and current law. But for pastoral reasons degrees of solemnity for the sung Mass are proposed here in order that it will become easier, in accord with each congregation's capability, to make the celebration of Mass more solemn through the use of singing. [/quote] At no time was the use of hymnody expected. It was forced upon us and became the norm through impostion as opposed to authentic teaching. It is through almost two generations of poor liturgical and theological catechesis that we are in the state we are in. The exclusive use of hymnody at Mass is part of the hermenuetic of discontinuity. The documents surrounding Vatican Council II support this talking point that I am making. At no time has the expectation been hymnody. As for Papal Masses, they are supposed to be the ideal for Catholic liturgy, that doesn't mean that they actually are. For 25 years we were subjected to Archbishop Marini's view of what the liturgy should be. Pope John Paul II was not a liturgist. He was a philosopher. Marini on the other hand was the direct protege of Bugnini. It was Bugnini who was the architect of the Novus Ordo and the leader of the Consilium. It fell on Marini to promote Bugnini's ideas and he did that. It has been borne out that he has failed. The Masses of the last pontificate are passing into history, as Monsignor Guido Marini has a much better understanding of the hermeneutic of continuity. He is not trying to reimagine the Mass in his mentors image, but rather he is trying to bring legitimacy to that which has been abused badly since 1965 and put into action in 1967. Had we better catechesis, we would not be in the liturgical dark night that we are currently in. We can thank a small group of men, led by Bugnini and perpetuated by Archbishop Marini, his protege....there is much work to do, but the first step is to understand that the Mass has music which is specific to her and hymns are not it. They never have been and they should not be counted as such. Edited June 20, 2011 by Cam42
Nihil Obstat Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 [quote name='jaime (the artist formerly known as hot stuff)' timestamp='1308539864' post='2256202'] fixed [/quote] Oh, that's what you wanted? You should probably say that instead of being passive aggressive. I apologize for implying that you're a dumb hippie.
Luigi Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 [quote name='TeresaBenedicta' timestamp='1308528335' post='2256142'] If the Pope allows hymns in his liturgies, then I'm not about to say they are liturgical abuses. [/quote] Agreed. If my pastor says "No guitars," then it'll be no guitars. Or if my bishop says, "No guitars," then it'll be no guitars. Or if the USCCB says, "No guitars," then it'll be no more guitars. Or if the pope tells a bunch of bishops on an ad limina visit, "No guitars," then it'll be no guitars. Or if the Congregation on Divine Worship says, "No guitars," then it'll be no more guitars. But until then, I'm not gonna get my shorts all up in a knot over guitars in church. And if I didn't like guitar masses, I wouldn't go to 'em. I'd worship any way that I found meaningful and permissible.
Nihil Obstat Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 [quote name='Luigi' timestamp='1308542329' post='2256220'] Agreed. If my pastor says "No guitars," then it'll be no guitars. Or if my bishop says, "No guitars," then it'll be no guitars. Or if the USCCB says, "No guitars," then it'll be no more guitars. Or if the pope tells a bunch of bishops on an ad limina visit, "No guitars," then it'll be no guitars. Or if the Congregation on Divine Worship says, "No guitars," then it'll be no more guitars. But until then, I'm not gonna get my shorts all up in a knot over guitars in church. And if I didn't like guitar masses, I wouldn't go to 'em. I'd worship any way that I found meaningful and permissible. [/quote] What if, just for instance, the CCCB says "[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnipeg_Statement"]no Humanae Vitae[/url]"? Just sayin'.
Jaime Posted June 20, 2011 Posted June 20, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1308542433' post='2256221'] What if, just for instance, the CCCB says "[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winnipeg_Statement"]no Humanae Vitae[/url]"? Just sayin'. [/quote] What's your point?
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