Ash Wednesday Posted June 12, 2011 Posted June 12, 2011 (edited) [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XTHFbM4ZFM[/media] I am not sure if this is even a debate, really, so the mods can move this if they want, but I just have a feeling it may turn into one. This is just an honest question and something I'd like to discuss because I found some documents cited in this video to be eye-opening, particularly the citation of the Second Vatican Council. I don't want this to get mean-spirited, it's not meant to be some "Catholic contest" but an honest question of what is right. I was shocked to hear that Gregorian chant was supposed to have been given first place and priority in the liturgy in Vatican II, because in all my life as a Catholic born in the mid-70s, I almost never heard chant in a mass until I attended my first Latin mass in England when in my early 20s, and since have attended more traditional adaptations of the Novus Ordo in both English and sung Latin when available. I don't know if I'm hearing a small sample of documentation here, but it seems to suggest that things like contemporary music and music with rock or secular influence, guitars and drums really don't go with what the Church specifies as what is appropriate for the mass. (for me it's always been a personal preference, but it seems to me that there's more to it than this.) Don't get me wrong, I grew up with some really good Catholics that did the music for the mass. I didn't care for the modern synthesizer/bass guitar style of music, but they were good people. But looking back, I'm beginning to think, it's not just a matter of taste -- rather, in light of tradition and what the Council actually said, it's not how the music was supposed to be done and not at all what the council intended. So...my honest question: what happened? Was there some amendment or canon law that allowed for contemporary musical style that allowed this to be brought about? Where's the documented written justification for it? Or was it just people's varying interpretation of things? Edited June 12, 2011 by Ash Wednesday
Nihil Obstat Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 I would respectfully submit that the majority of average Catholics are either ignorant of, or outright ignoring all Vatican documents issued on sacred music.
Nihil Obstat Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 This is an extremely serious issue in the Catholic Church today, and it has been swept under the rug for many years.
Ash Wednesday Posted June 13, 2011 Author Posted June 13, 2011 (edited) [quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1307925332' post='2252922'] Not this dealy again.... [/quote] I've been on this forum for a long time, and asked the mods whether or not it would be all right to post the video and discuss this, and got the go ahead. I'm asking honest questions in hopes of learning something, not for snarky responses. You're free to not participate if you have nothing to contribute. Cheers. Edited June 13, 2011 by Ash Wednesday
Jaime Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1307923226' post='2252914'] I would respectfully submit that the majority of average Catholics are ignorant [/quote] Fixed and I agree wholeheartedly
ThePenciledOne Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1307927595' post='2252939'] This is an extremely serious issue in the Catholic Church today, and it has been swept under the rug for many years. [/quote] Ok, Nihil I understand your passion behind this issue. Topics repeat a lot, so I was just expressing my exhaustion of reading posts that I feel have been typed over and over and over, that's all. [quote name='Ash Wednesday' timestamp='1307929025' post='2252954'] I've been on this forum for a long time, and asked the mods whether or not it would be all right to post the video and discuss this, and got the go ahead. I'm asking honest questions in hopes of learning something, not for snarky responses. You're free to not participate if you have nothing to contribute. Cheers. [/quote] Not trying to be snarky or anything at all. So my apologies.
Lil Red Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 [quote name='ThePenciledOne' timestamp='1307930311' post='2252964'] Ok, Nihil I understand your passion behind this issue. Topics repeat a lot, so I was just expressing my exhaustion of reading posts that I feel have been typed over and over and over, that's all. [/quote] hence why Ash asked - considering her and I have been members since 2003 - and have seen these topics many times.
Ash Wednesday Posted June 13, 2011 Author Posted June 13, 2011 Not trying to be snarky or anything at all. So my apologies. [/quote] To quote the great Parker Lewis, "Not a problem." [quote name='Nihil Obstat' timestamp='1307923226' post='2252914'] I would respectfully submit that the majority of average Catholics are either ignorant of, or outright ignoring all Vatican documents issued on sacred music. [/quote] Well you can count me in the "ignorant" category on this. Up until now I thought chant was, I don't know, "encouraged" but the wording in a lot of writings on sacred music is weightier about the subject than what I had previously thought. How sad that what should have been given first priority has been all but given last... I guess I thought it was "encouraged" much like people claim contraception is just...you know...merely "discouraged" by the church.
Nihil Obstat Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 [quote name='Ash Wednesday' timestamp='1307946722' post='2253070'] Well you can count me in the "ignorant" category on this. Up until now I thought chant was, I don't know, "encouraged" but the wording in a lot of writings on sacred music is weightier about the subject than what I had previously thought. How sad that what should have been given first priority has been all but given last... I guess I thought it was "encouraged" much like people claim contraception is just...you know...merely "discouraged" by the church. [/quote] Therein lies the issue. So many Catholics today don't know about the Church's crystal clear teaching that Gregorian Chant is *the* model by which the Latin Church judges sacred music. If all were aware of that, many more would no longer accept the absolutely insipid hymnody that passes for music in the average community parish. Of course many would continue to reject chant because darnit, praise and worship is just so with it, y'know? It really, like, speaks to my heart and stuff, right? Unfortunately it takes more than Church teaching to set people of that ilk straight.
dairygirl4u2c Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 sacred music man might have some insight on this stuff...
kujo Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 Could this be a false dichotomy? Must there be a schism between the "sacred" and the "secular?" I mean, I don't want to hear a song about margaritas or tractors in the mass. But a song about loving your neighbor, or helping those in need, or overcoming great personal tragedy might be germane in the mass, provided the content of the song doesn't present obvious conflicts (i.e.- profanity, vulgarity or other such inappropriateness). I mean, I wouldn't want to listen to that in the mass, but I could see the possibility that songs featuring those themes could work. Nah...I make the argument and then I realize I don't even believe it myself. I still have an issue with the false dichotomy, but I wouldn't want secular music in the mass. That just [i]feels[/i] wrong. Contemporary music, however....so long as it is congruent with Catholic beliefs, is fine, IMO.
MIKolbe Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 While I agree contemporary music can be fine; I do not think it should be given 'pride of place'. I think therein lies the difference.
kujo Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 [quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1307973681' post='2253131'] While I agree contemporary music can be fine; I do not think it should be given 'pride of place'. I think therein lies the difference. [/quote] Are we talking about contemporary [b]secular[/b] music or contemporary [b]Christian/Catholic[/b] music? If it's the former than I 100% agree; if it's the latter, I do not.
TeresaBenedicta Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 [quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1307973681' post='2253131'] While I agree contemporary music can be fine; I do not think it should be given 'pride of place'. I think therein lies the difference. [/quote] This.
MIKolbe Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 [quote name='kujo' timestamp='1307974334' post='2253136'] Are we talking about contemporary [b]secular[/b] music or contemporary [b]Christian/Catholic[/b] music? If it's the former than I 100% agree; if it's the latter, I do not. [/quote] then I believe we disagree. <suspenseful music> Be prepared to be destroyed!!!! </suspenseful music>
kujo Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 [quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1307977181' post='2253144'] then I believe we disagree. <suspenseful music> Be prepared to be destroyed!!!! </suspenseful music> [/quote] [img]http://www.businessweek.com/investing/insights/blog/archives/images/yankee_sweep_copy.jpg[/img] You're on, bud.
MIKolbe Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 point of clarification.. you feel both contemporary secular music and contemporary Christian/Catholic music are acceptable? not sure if I was reading you wrong, but are you against Christian/Catholic music? Where are we mandated/allowed/permitted to use purely secular music in the Mass? I think you stated previously that not ALL secular music would be appropriate for Mass. What if other people are not as 'stringent' as you? (lol, only cuz i know you) Don't you think it opens a rather precarious door to a rather slippery slope? explain why or why not. If you wish.. I can just accept your defeat now.
IcePrincessKRS Posted June 13, 2011 Posted June 13, 2011 [quote name='MIkolbe' timestamp='1307973681' post='2253131'] While I agree contemporary music can be fine; I do not think it should be given 'pride of place'. I think therein lies the difference. [/quote] I agree. I think that contemporary Catholic hymns [i]can[/i] certainly have a place in the Mass, but secular music does[i] not[/i]. I grew up in a parish with Augustinian friars, and they were STELLAR. It was a vernacular NO Mass, but they still frequently used Latin and chant in certain parts of the Mass (but still a fairly liberal use of contemporary hymns), and we had incense all the time. It was amesome. When I think of the NO done right I think of them. In other news yesterday we learned that a couple families are moving on to their next duty station. And I am not ashamed to admit that I was stoked that the tambourine playing girl was going to be leaving. Every time she started rapping that contraption against her thigh or palm I wanted to race up there and snatch it away and smack her with it. Sooooo bad for my disposition and proper attention to the Mass. Tambourines should most definitely not have pride of place in the Mass.
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